Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Goreschach]

Honestly, I think the move away from socially focused MMO's is just another example of people not knowing what they want.  Not having to deal with people might make the gameplay process easier and more predicatable, but gameplay that's easy and predictable soon becomes boring.

A lot of people hold WoW up as some next-gen solo MMO, but it's heavily inspired from the earlier MMO's. The core gameplay systems in WoW, the max level raids and instances, the arena, the auction houses; they're all essentially a form of pvp. In WOW and other such games you're competing with and against other groups of people to outdo them in some form of measurement, be it gold, levels, ranking, boss kills, or foozles. All the major successful MMO's are built around this kind of interaction. WoW, EVE, EQ, DAOC, UO. All of them were heavily social and based, in one form or another, on aggregations of people( big, small, temporary, or long term) competing on some level with either other aggregations or with the rest of the playerbase. What's more, these games all had mechanics that forced you to work with your allies to overcome the competition, as opposed to games that merely required you to work 'next to' your allies. A good example of the latter would be WAR, where teams in either pvp or pve were mostly just lumps of individuals as the game neither required nor promoted any major teamwork.

[tmp]

"60-days of free play" (30+60=60!)

I think the explanation is simple -- it's 90 days as measured by a non-subscriber on Earth but it translates only to 60 experienced days of travel around STO universe at these warp speeds...

[Malakili]

Depends on the game. Travel times in WoW are meaningless, since the only thing that matters is how long it takes you to get to the raid. Travel in Eve is important because it creates trade routes. And travel in Planetside is important because it creates choke points for reinforcements. (BRIDGE FIGHT!)
If travel serves a purpose beyond just consuming time to get somewhere, then instantaneous travel can remove fun. Otherwise, it's just a cockblock.

And multiplayer can mean more than just "Get in a group and beat on foozles for lewtz!"

Yeah, this.  It isn't that travel time matters all that much in itself, but I do feel that games which have it and do it well are more to my liking thqn games that don't and do it well.

[Valmorian]

Your argument, by the way, imagines that the players will not devolve immediately to the lowest common denominator (or path of least resistance) despite the fact that  other options might be more fun or entertaining. If you let people just push a button to get their fat lewts, they'd do it, even if it would totally defeat the purpose of playing the game.

Sometimes you have to *make* people have a good time.

addendum: I recall having this exact same debate around the time that Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was released, in protest over their fast-travel system. I don't think anyone's going to argue that Oblivion's "click to travel" crap was superior to Morrowind, which forced you to pick your way carefully through the countryside and offered a highly more atmospheric experience.

Sorry, but that's total nonsense.  I know people personally who go out of their way to do things in MMO's differently because they enjoy that different thing.  There are some who collect sets of cosmetic gear, some who insist on never twinking their character, etc..

If you really enjoy slow travel times, go for it.  Of course, everyone has a different idea about what constitutes a "slow" travel time, so there is that as well.  Some of us only found that so called "large world" interesting the first time.  I'm GLAD there's fast travel in games, and it's narrow minded to assume that I'd have to be forced to enjoy slow travel.

[ghost]

There is a fair chunk of gamer population out there that doesn't have four hours to run around looking for something.  I certainly don't do this in real life, either, so I'm not sure how running for four hours to make a trade is realistic.  In face, the grand majority of what people do is to avoid massive travel times.  That is why we move. 

Regardless, these are games.  I play them to have fun and running is not fun.  While WoW may not be everyone's cup of tea, they are quite good at removing roadblocks to fun-  see the removal of irritating cockblock quests like the poison-rogue chain.  Other evidence of this is adding in horse travel at level 20. 

[Malakili]

There is a fair chunk of gamer population out there that doesn't have four hours to run around looking for something.  I certainly don't do this in real life, either, so I'm not sure how running for four hours to make a trade is realistic.  In face, the grand majority of what people do is to avoid massive travel times.  That is why we move.  

Regardless, these are games.  I play them to have fun and running is not fun.  While WoW may not be everyone's cup of tea, they are quite good at removing roadblocks to fun-  see the removal of irritating cockblock quests like the poison-rogue chain.  Other evidence of this is adding in horse travel at level 20.  

I've said it before and been slammed for it but I will say it again.  I do NOT play mmos for fun per se.  I like the experience of being able to drop down into another world and tempporarily leave the real one behind.  Its a very enjoyable experience, but it is definitely not always fun.  If I just want to have pure fun I will play a shooter or something, which I do all the time (daily).  The mmo genre is really the only one to be able to offer that experience, and to make the genre into social networking with crappy game mechanics is jusy a direction I have absolutely no interest in.  I'm sure its far more popular than what I want but I don't care.

Edit: Travel time doesn't add to the experience in itself, but the games which they make with travel time built in for a reason, like a EVE and its economy, are the types of games that do this.

[tmp]

Edit: Travel time doesn't add to the experience in itself, but the games which they make with travel time built in for a reason, like a EVE and its economy, are the types of games that do this.

One could say though that a game built around universe where people routinely travel at the speed of plot is especially well suited to accomodate instant travel to current point of interest.

[Ratman_tf]

Fun is fun.  I don't like dying in any game. Should dying be taken out? Imagine how cool a Hardcore game of D2 would be if you couldn't die! 

[Lantyssa]

I've said it before and been slammed for it but I will say it again.  I do NOT play mmos for fun per se.  I like the experience of being able to drop down into another world and tempporarily leave the real one behind.  Its a very enjoyable experience, but it is definitely not always fun.  If I just want to have pure fun I will play a shooter or something, which I do all the time (daily).  The mmo genre is really the only one to be able to offer that experience, and to make the genre into social networking with crappy game mechanics is jusy a direction I have absolutely no interest in.  I'm sure its far more popular than what I want but I don't care.

Edit: Travel time doesn't add to the experience in itself, but the games which they make with travel time built in for a reason, like a EVE and its economy, are the types of games that do this.

The problem is that there are Games and there are Virtual Worlds.  Most people want a Game.  The more realistic and in-depth a Virtual World is, the less of a Game it is.  Arguably, some of the best Virtual Worlds are single-player (Elder Scrolls series, Fallout, Dwarf Fortress).  Being an MMO does not make it inherently prone to being a Virtual World.

And what you don't like are exactly what Games are.  Social activities with a simple mechanic so everyone can participate.  While I understand your desire, I want more Virtual Worlds too, your expectations are skewed.  MMOs make much more sense being designed as games first since they are based on the idea of a social activity.  They are also far, far easier to produce.

[Valmorian]

Fun is fun.  I don't like dying in any game. Should dying be taken out? Imagine how cool a Hardcore game of D2 would be if you couldn't die! 

There are games you can't die in, of course, like Fable 2.  In addition to that there are games where the death penalty is relatively meaningless, like Star Trek Online (wow, the topic again!) or even WoW.

[ghost]

The problem is that there are Games and there are Virtual Worlds.  Most people want a Game.  The more realistic and in-depth a Virtual World is, the less of a Game it is.  Arguably, some of the best Virtual Worlds are single-player (Elder Scrolls series, Fallout, Dwarf Fortress).  Being an MMO does not make it inherently prone to being a Virtual World.

And what you don't like are exactly what Games are.  Social activities with a simple mechanic so everyone can participate.  While I understand your desire, I want more Virtual Worlds too, your expectations are skewed.  MMOs make much more sense being designed as games first since they are based on the idea of a social activity.  They are also far, far easier to produce.

This pretty much sums everything up.  WoW is a game.  Eve can be a game, at times.  Wurm Online?  I'm not so sure. 

[Slyfeind]

Of course, there's a difference between "Instant travel" and "Instant travel to your friends".  In any case, I'll ask you the same thing I ask everyone who tells me that they hate "griffons" ala WoW: Assuming you play WoW, do you use the griffons? Because if you do, you're a damned hypocrite.

That's a good point. I hated the griffon routes in WotLK...specifically, the ones that you got before visiting the destination. I was finishing the first Howling Fjords town, and when it came time to visit the next town, I got a quest to "instantly fly there." I was looking forward to climbing the cliff, crossing the bridge, and setting out on my next adventure. I was denied that when I was granted instant travel time.

So when I got that quest, I dropped it, mounted up, and rode to where I was supposed to go.

Yeah, if I hate a griffon route, I'll spend 20 minutes riding my horse and enjoying the scenery.

[Furiously]

I swear I canceled this... Then somehow I got a $29 charge on my Visa today....

I hate my memory.

[Count Nerfedalot]

I swear I canceled this... Then somehow I got a $29 charge on my Visa today....

I hate my memory.

$29???

[NiX]

$29???

Anyone who plays EVE for a year straight is charged a tax when they play any other MMO.

[GenVec]

Regardless, these are games.  I play them to have fun and running is not fun.

The problem here is that you view space and distance as doing nothing but subtracting from your gaming experience and delaying your gratification of whacking foozles. As someone mentioned above, distance and time can be not just atmospheric additions to the game, but strategic and cultural as well. Nowhere is this more obvious than Eve.

I don't like dying in any game. Should dying be taken out? Imagine how cool a Hardcore game of D2 would be if you couldn't die!  

"I'm a busy man that doesn't have four hours to sink into every gaming session. I don't have time to die."

You certainly hit at the heart of the matter. As the risk and difficulty associated with games has decreased across the MMO genre, the feeling of accomplishment has similarly declined. In some games I've played, making the harrowing journey from one city to another was a dangerous task, and its successful completion was something that left you with an enormous sense of satisfaction, regardless of the fact that it didn't put gold in the bank or move the xp bar. From the sound of some of these responses, those less subtle achievements might be somewhat under appreciated.

If this strikes you all as just a lament for virtual worlds, think further. It's the same reasons people read Dostoevsky instead of Dan Brown and play Fallout rather than Tetris. Simple is not always better, and nuanced or challenging experiences provide the greatest rewards.

[01101010]

I always thought sector space travel should have automatically put you on the bridge to screw around and chat with your officers or even hail other ships, or open up starfleet communications, or inform you of hostile targets near by. That would have been star trek to the 10th power. But alas, that would have been too hard. Maybe it'll be in patch 2.1 

[Rendakor]

GenVen, you talk about "challenge" but you don't realize that when you make mundane things like walking from point A to point B challenging, it pisses off more people than it pleases. Therefore, when the developers of MMO X ask themselves "Do we want long and difficult travel times?" what they're really asking is "Do we want to piss off a lot of our potential subscribers?"

You're in the minority, sorry. There are games for you: Eve, EQ1, etc. But don't expect a niche virtual world out of Cryptic of all people.

[Draegan]

Dude, you can't have instant travel, that makes the the world smaller and travel needs to having meaning!

Assuming this is not sarcastic, I agree with it completely. Your world is only as big as the time it takes you to get from one side of it to another. Even if you've created a  massive playing space, if I can hop on a horse or a griffin and cross it in ten minutes, that's exactly how large it's going to feel.

It's enough to make me miss EQ.

I was being sarcastic and you're broken.  All of you are fucking broken.

[Xurtan]

I miss the exploring and long trek times, personally. Walking from Freeport to Qeynos was always fun. (No, that isn't sarcasm. I greatly detested the PoK books that made travel so easy.) Freeport to EC to WC to Kith to HHK to East Karana to North Karana to West Karana to Qeynos Hills to Qeynos. It never feels like I'm out and exploring a world anymore, when I can just hop on a griffin and get to wherever within a couple of minutes.

[Ratman_tf]

I was being sarcastic and you're broken.  All of you are fucking broken.

Racing games, cars and snowboards and shit, are nothing but travel. Why do people play them? 

[GenVec]

GenVen, you talk about "challenge" but you don't realize that when you make mundane things like walking from point A to point B challenging, it pisses off more people than it pleases. Therefore, when the developers of MMO X ask themselves "Do we want long and difficult travel times?" what they're really asking is "Do we want to piss off a lot of our potential subscribers?"

You're in the minority, sorry. There are games for you: Eve, EQ1, etc. But don't expect a niche virtual world out of Cryptic of all people.

If you'll read the post again, you'll notice that the problem is that you think travel is nothing more than "walking from point A to point B". It's a terribly simplistic way of looking at it. To quote an old phrase, "It's just as much about the journey as it is the destination."

As for being in the minority, I definitely agree. I'd like to see the MMO market one day expand to the point where making decent games is once again a profitable endeavor.

[Nebu]

Travel becomes valuable when the distance between objectives a) provides an alternate path of advancement in and of itself through collection, minigames, and combat and b) when it adds regional value and flavor to the game.  ATitD gave value to distance and world size through trade, things to collect along the route, and regional specialization.  Combat-focused MMO's give no such value to large expanses so they serve merely as timesinks. 

[ghost]

I always thought sector space travel should have automatically put you on the bridge to screw around and chat with your officers or even hail other ships, or open up starfleet communications, or inform you of hostile targets near by. That would have been star trek to the 10th power. But alas, that would have been too hard. Maybe it'll be in patch 2.1 

Porn shots with Uhura

[Numtini]

Travel is something you need to find the sweet spot in. I generally saw travel in WoW as nothing more than a time sink. But when it was completely removed in 3.3, I pretty much lost interest in the game. While popping into a dungeon instantly enhanced my playstyle which was mainly PUG groups, on some level it reduced my emotional feeling for the game as a world and it just quashed my interest in pursuing that playstyle.

[Valmorian]

I always thought the "world" feeling of WoW was amongst the weakest of any MMO I've played, although not because of the travel.  WoW seems to go out of its way to break suspension of disbelief, what with the huge number of pop culture references and other things that just don't make any sense.

[HaemishM]

I'm just nostalgic for the days when I had to pay a druid a bag of gold to take me to Faydwer.

You are fundamentally damaged.

[Morfiend]

BRING BACK PRECASTING !!!11!!!1!!

[Sheepherder]

I liked roaming in Morrowind and Oblivion, handing out beat-downs to random poor looking people.  But forcing that would make any game fucking dreary to play.

[Kageru]

I would suspect that Blizzard is simply learning from the user-base they've attracted, which includes a lot of casual gamers and people new to MMO's. They've realised social activities provide "stickiness" and keep people subscribed but that 3-4 hour blocks of time are less practical. Either because the player-base is older, MMO's are less novel so that you'd re-arrange your life for them or they have a lot of casual gamers. This was the lesson they learnt from dungeons like blackrock depths. So the solution makes perfect sense in this case. Four members of a potential group do not want to be sitting around for 15 minutes while you fly across the map and blizzard doesn't want "remote" dungeons to be abandoned.

[01101010]

I would suspect that Blizzard is simply learning from the user-base they've attracted, which includes a lot of casual gamers and people new to MMO's. They've realised social activities provide "stickiness" and keep people subscribed but that 3-4 hour blocks of time are less practical. Either because the player-base is older, MMO's are less novel so that you'd re-arrange your life for them or they have a lot of casual gamers. This was the lesson they learnt from dungeons like blackrock depths. So the solution makes perfect sense in this case. Four members of a potential group do not want to be sitting around for 15 minutes while you fly across the map and blizzard doesn't want "remote" dungeons to be abandoned.

I assume the people at Blizzard are keeping an eye on Activision a tad more these days as well...

[koro]

Welp, Cryptic released the first big group-only content update today (it was only on Test for what? Three days or so?). I can't say much about it, since my account and the accounts of everyone else I know closed yesterday.

Whoops.

[Ghambit]

Hey!  They fixed the lag!   

[Surlyboi]

I haven't hit that content yet, more or less because the weather's gotten warmer and I've actually left the house to drink outside. But I'll check on it soon enough.

[Stormwaltz]

Good god. I just had a client CTD when I was literally doing nothing -- standing on a starbase with a vendor window open.

Then I noticed this in my system tray:



Over an hour to upload a crash dump? Really?