Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Sheepherder]

If you have to do the same shit all over again to get back to the point where you failed, what is the point?

[Kitsune]

I remember my run to Ironforge from Teldrassil.  It was considerably less stressful than my trip to Qeynos, due in large part to the presence of a map in WoW that didn't exist in EQ for my Qeynos run.  Of course, WoW nerfed the Teldrassil-Ironforge run too, so.   

[NowhereMan]

Yeah epic journeys. Having gone from UO to EQ I was pretty used to travelling long distances but UO, even with the ability to find cool shit you had no idea was there (from little Easter Egg style cool places to awesomely set up castles in the middle of nowhere) never left one with a memorable journey. In EQ My first trip was from Kelethin to the crazy Ice Country at level 6 as my friend had managed to flag PvP in a moment of idiocy and was informed by a GM the only way to reverse it was to visit the Priestess of Order. Who was on the other side of the world. At level 6 just getting to the Ferry through Butcherblock was a nightmare of near certain death but one that didn't have the sting of death penalties. It ended up taking us about 3 or 4 days of play sessions to get through it and we ended up having to do our newbie training in Qeynos which itself was pretty cool because we were the only Wood Elves in the newbie training grounds. It wasn't just graphics but EQ did a really good job of creating a world, zone design was memorable and distinctive and the simple fact that races really were segregated (at least early on) had an impact on you. It could have benefitted from travel buffs and spells being available earlier and a less mind fucking death penalty. Eve in contrast had dull travel because there really isn't anything to do besides right clicking, it is 100% a time sink.

[raydeen]

I kinda sit on both sides of the travel issue. If given the chance, I'll take the quick route everytime (God I loved it when EQ put in PoK) if for no other reason than there's things to be done and the quicker everyone gets to wherever the things is/are, the better. That being said, one of the funnest things I've ever done in WoW is run a naked Draenei hunter all the way from Azuremist to Eversong Woods because I wanted one of the fire hawk things for a pet. It was a PvE server so I didn't have to worry about being ganked (although I did try to use the teleporter in the Undercity thinking that would be a shortcut - wrong and got chased around by a similar level warlock - that was kinda funny) but it was a hell of a job getting through the Plaguelands even without any real death penalty. It was fun but only because I had an end goal in sight. One day, I might try it on a PvP server just for giggles.

[Nebu]

Box cost to $27.99 on Amazon. 

Has the stability improved yet?  I'm starting to consider giving this a try as the price approaches $20. 

[Khaldun]

Travel for the first time to new content is always interesting. Travel where there are useful things to see and do along the route is always interesting. Travel that is about repeated routinized activity is not.

The problem I see is that addressing the latter usually ends up borking the former: if you're eventually going to have travel just be an obstacle to swift completion of tasks, then why bother making travel interesting in the first place?

Interesting travel generally requires virtual worlds/sandboxes, not amusement park ride MMOs. Since there's only one viable sandbox left in the market (Eve), that's pretty much the end of travel as an interesting mechanic worth spending design effort on.

[Koyasha]

Second MMOG syndrome. That second time will never be as magical as the first without additional sensory input, like smell or tactile input.

EQ wasn't anywhere near my first - beyond UO before it, I'd played a bunch of the little ones that not many people remember, like Dark Sun Online and others.  I remember some of my journeys across Britannia, and I have some vague memories of traveling south far enough to reach an oasis that not many people went to in DSO, but none of that had the epic feel of my first transcontinental journey in Norrath.

Travel for the first time to new content is always interesting. Travel where there are useful things to see and do along the route is always interesting. Travel that is about repeated routinized activity is not.

The problem I see is that addressing the latter usually ends up borking the former: if you're eventually going to have travel just be an obstacle to swift completion of tasks, then why bother making travel interesting in the first place?

Interesting travel generally requires virtual worlds/sandboxes, not amusement park ride MMOs. Since there's only one viable sandbox left in the market (Eve), that's pretty much the end of travel as an interesting mechanic worth spending design effort on.

I think this is mostly spot on.  There's a lot of things that come together to make interesting travel not worth working on these days, and among them is the fact that there isn't really anything unknown out there, and most players, if they have the slightest question on where they need to go, do not strike out with vague directions or little knowledge, they look things up immediately, which means that no matter how interesting you try to make the trip, most players will be avoiding anything they're not specifically looking for right this minute.

[Malakili]

the fact that there isn't really anything unknown out there, and most players, if they have the slightest question on where they need to go, do not strike out with vague directions or little knowledge, they look things up immediately, which means that no matter how interesting you try to make the trip, most players will be avoiding anything they're not specifically looking for right this minute.

This is one of the reasons I think MMOs going forward that I am going to want to play are going to have to be very player driven, or very dynamic.  I don't mind if there is a database of, say, player created structures, but when you just have guides telling you the most efficient way through the game, it kind of ruins it for me, even if I don't personally use it.

[Pennilenko]

This is one of the reasons I think MMOs going forward that I am going to want to play are going to have to be very player driven, or very dynamic.  I don't mind if there is a database of, say, player created structures, but when you just have guides telling you the most efficient way through the game, it kind of ruins it for me, even if I don't personally use it.

I have heard lots of people make this statement. Every time I think to myself, if EVE had twitch combat in space and on the ground, it would rule all MMOs.

[Malakili]

This is one of the reasons I think MMOs going forward that I am going to want to play are going to have to be very player driven, or very dynamic.  I don't mind if there is a database of, say, player created structures, but when you just have guides telling you the most efficient way through the game, it kind of ruins it for me, even if I don't personally use it.

I have heard lots of people make this statement. Every time I think to myself, if EVE had twitch combat in space and on the ground, it would rule all MMOs.

I mean, I like EVE and played it for a long time, what I said doesn't take into account burn out.   No matter how good a game is, I'm not going to play it forever.

[Pennilenko]

I seriously think STO would have been a lot more fun if it was more sandbox empire building and less pet your tribbles and quest grindy.

[Shatter]

How bout compromise.  An existing flight system that takes you to your destination...sometimes.  Rest of the time it drops you off in elite mob infested locations and you have to fight or run your way out.  Never boring, maybe you make it...maybe you wont!

 

[Malakili]

I seriously think STO would have been a lot more fun if it was more sandbox empire building and less pet your tribbles and quest grindy.

Unfortunately, Star Trek isn't a really good candidate for that kind of game, there is so much lore and so many fans who treat it as sacrosanct that you really can't put too many canon changing decisions in the hands of players.  Star Trek could have some sandbox elements, sure, specifically related to exploration you'd think, but empire building isn't something that could really fit with it.  Frankly, this is one of the reasons Star Trek shouldn't be an MMO in the first place though.

[LK]

Frankly, this is one of the reasons Star Trek shouldn't be an MMO in the first place though.

The people making the game don't care. They see the problem of "Star Trek shouldn't be an MMO", ignore it, and work within the framework of "Star Trek MMO" to try and make money.

[Cyrrex]

How bout compromise.  An existing flight system that takes you to your destination...sometimes.  Rest of the time it drops you off in elite mob infested locations and you have to fight or run your way out.  Never boring, maybe you make it...maybe you wont!

 

I think this is closer to the mark than anyone else has hit so far.  Make travel unpredictable and dangerous.  Whether in space, on foot or on the back of some stupid bird, they could make it work.  Spaceships malfunction or get yanked out by pirates.  Naked Night Elves get jumped by highwaymen or bounty hunters (NPC or otherwise).  Your dumb gryphon thingy dies in mid flight and dumps you into leet mob hell.

[Viin]

I seriously think STO would have been a lot more fun if it was more sandbox empire building and less pet your tribbles and quest grindy.

Unfortunately, Star Trek isn't a really good candidate for that kind of game, there is so much lore and so many fans who treat it as sacrosanct that you really can't put too many canon changing decisions in the hands of players.  Star Trek could have some sandbox elements, sure, specifically related to exploration you'd think, but empire building isn't something that could really fit with it.  Frankly, this is one of the reasons Star Trek shouldn't be an MMO in the first place though.

How is this different than SWG? Building an empire doesn't mean you build a literal empire. What it means is that you build *something* that you can call your own, be it a guild or a harvest formation that spells SUCK IT or whatever. I think it'd be pretty easy to come up with a sandbox ST MMO.. just like with SWG, the trappings of interesting player stories are already there. No one is asking to take over the Federation, but why can't I play a bounty hunter working for both sides, or a dedicated Federation officer with the rank and privileges that comes with?

[Rasix]

How bout compromise.  An existing flight system that takes you to your destination...sometimes.  Rest of the time it drops you off in elite mob infested locations and you have to fight or run your way out.  Never boring, maybe you make it...maybe you wont!

 

I think this is closer to the mark than anyone else has hit so far.  Make travel unpredictable and dangerous.  Whether in space, on foot or on the back of some stupid bird, they could make it work.  Spaceships malfunction or get yanked out by pirates.  Naked Night Elves get jumped by highwaymen or bounty hunters (NPC or otherwise).  Your dumb gryphon thingy dies in mid flight and dumps you into leet mob hell.

Embrace the niche.  Travel is a loading screen for anything that hopes to have mass market appeal.

Dangerous travel is fun, new and exciting the first time you undertake it.  Every other time: complete fucking hassle.

[Cyrrex]

How bout compromise.  An existing flight system that takes you to your destination...sometimes.  Rest of the time it drops you off in elite mob infested locations and you have to fight or run your way out.  Never boring, maybe you make it...maybe you wont!

 

I think this is closer to the mark than anyone else has hit so far.  Make travel unpredictable and dangerous.  Whether in space, on foot or on the back of some stupid bird, they could make it work.  Spaceships malfunction or get yanked out by pirates.  Naked Night Elves get jumped by highwaymen or bounty hunters (NPC or otherwise).  Your dumb gryphon thingy dies in mid flight and dumps you into leet mob hell.

Embrace the niche.  Travel is a loading screen for anything that hopes to have mass market appeal.

Dangerous travel is fun, new and exciting the first time you undertake it.  Every other time: complete fucking hassle.

I was thinking along the lines of making it rare enough to not be too inconvenient, and rewardable enough (loot, whatever) to make you not dread it when it eventually does happen.  It's got to be better than what most games offer, which is absolutely nothing.

[Ingmar]

That kind of stuff messes with your community and player time management.

"OK guys, I'll meet you at the dungeon and we'll go from there. Oh never mind, the game took a dump on me and is preventing me from doing our group activity together until I fight my way out of this spot."

Doesn't sound like a formula for success to me.

[Goreschach]

The point of travel isn't to be fun, it's to give the size of the world some significance. Just throwing in travel time for its own sake is pointless. Compare EVE and early WOW. Both had pvp fighting for control over areas. This became a major component in EVE, while in WOW it's been all but removed. In EVE the pvp and territory had meaning, there was actual strategy in launching an attack on a given area, and moving people had purpose. In the early days of WOW, when a bunch of people started attacking the Mill, within 5 minutes an entire opposing army would show up. In early WOW, there was no actual war, it was basically just mass dueling until people got bored and hearthed back home. Since near-instant travel was an intrinsic part of Warcraft, the War was eventually dropped and Blizzard embraced the mass dueling aspect.

In a way it's comparable to adding time travel to a book or tv show. Sure, it might be kindof fun, and it's an easy way to 'solve' that plothole you wrote, but once you add it you're basically relegated to Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

[Cyrrex]

That kind of stuff messes with your community and player time management.

"OK guys, I'll meet you at the dungeon and we'll go from there. Oh never mind, the game took a dump on me and is preventing me from doing our group activity together until I fight my way out of this spot."

Doesn't sound like a formula for success to me.

That assumes that I care about "community and player time management" and that I think the style of MMO we're forced to play today is actually worth half a shit.  Not trying to be an ass, just saying that I wish we'd stop pandering to the foozles and make these things into actual games.

[Ingmar]

That kind of stuff messes with your community and player time management.

"OK guys, I'll meet you at the dungeon and we'll go from there. Oh never mind, the game took a dump on me and is preventing me from doing our group activity together until I fight my way out of this spot."

Doesn't sound like a formula for success to me.

That assumes that I care about "community and player time management" and that I think the style of MMO we're forced to play today is actually worth half a shit.  Not trying to be an ass, just saying that I wish we'd stop pandering to the foozles and make these things into actual games.

OK so let me put it another way, it fucks with your ability to get together with your friends in game and do an activity together. That isn't 'pandering to foozles' that is like the #1 core thing that an MMO has to offer.

[Rasix]

Non proper use of foozle.

[raydeen]

Didn't FFXI have travel dangers in that pirates could jump on the airships and start killing the players? I never experienced it myself. I did however attempt the run from Windurst to Jeuno and promptly deleted and re-rolled as it was quicker at that point to level up a new character than to try to run/bind/die/lose xp and maybe make it to Bastok to meet up with my friends. I really liked my Taru and Windurst was a helluva sight better area than Bastok. Fuck that game.

[Malakili]

That kind of stuff messes with your community and player time management.

"OK guys, I'll meet you at the dungeon and we'll go from there. Oh never mind, the game took a dump on me and is preventing me from doing our group activity together until I fight my way out of this spot."

Doesn't sound like a formula for success to me.

That assumes that I care about "community and player time management" and that I think the style of MMO we're forced to play today is actually worth half a shit.  Not trying to be an ass, just saying that I wish we'd stop pandering to the foozles and make these things into actual games.

OK so let me put it another way, it fucks with your ability to get together with your friends in game and do an activity together. That isn't 'pandering to foozles' that is like the #1 core thing that an MMO has to offer.

Soooort of.  I mean, sure, if you are on opposite sides of EVE, and you want to play together, it probably isn't going to happen that day, but the point is to get together and operate out of the same area long term, and if you want to make major moves, move together.    I'd also say thats not really the number 1 thing MMOs have to offer, I'd say the big shared, persistent, game world is.  Getting together with your friends to play a game is something you can do in any multiplayer game, it isn't unique to MMOs at all.   To me, getting together with my friends in EVE wasn't a big to do, it just required a little planning.  I can see the "well, we don't want to have to plan to play together" already coming, so I'll just preempt it by saying that if you don't want any logistical play at all, then what i view as the MMO genre is probably something you wouldn't want to play in the first place.

Edit: Also, one of the things I consider part of the MMO genre is that you are playing on a longer timescale than just "the hour I'm playing today" or whatever, so the idea of planning things out so that the hour I'm playing tomorrow, or next week, ends up a certain way, doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. 

[Pennilenko]

Soooort of.  I mean, sure, if you are on opposite sides of EVE, and you want to play together, it probably isn't going to happen that day, but the point is to get together and operate out of the same area long term, and if you want to make major moves, move together.    I'd also say that's not really the number 1 thing MMOs have to offer, I'd say the big shared, persistent, game world is.  Getting together with your friends to play a game is something you can do in any multiplayer game, it isn't unique to MMOs at all.   To me, getting together with my friends in EVE wasn't a big to do, it just required a little planning.  I can see the "well, we don't want to have to plan to play together" already coming, so I'll just preempt it by saying that if you don't want any logistical play at all, then what i view as the MMO genre is probably something you wouldn't want to play in the first place.

Edit: Also, one of the things I consider part of the MMO genre is that you are playing on a longer timescale than just "the hour I'm playing today" or whatever, so the idea of planning things out so that the hour I'm playing tomorrow, or next week, ends up a certain way, doesn't seem like that big a deal to me. 

I am in the same boat as you. When you mention that thinking of logistics is part of what you consider MMOs makes me think that now more than ever we need to divide MMOs up into Sub MMO genres. For instance, even though they are massively multi-player, EVE is certainly not the same as WOW, they are completely different MMOs, they should have their own sub genres. If only so that when speaking about them we don't get hung up on comparing apples to oranges.

[HaemishM]

If you consider MMO's a Medium as you should, classifying games into genres shouldn't be that hard. MMOG's are not a genre.

[Ratman_tf]

Heh. The hard thing is you can describe any MMOG in terms besides gameplay terms. And most advertisement crap does just that.

"An expansive virtual universe with challenging enemies to defeat, a rich tapestry of lore, and large scale battles between factions. Players trade goods and services to amass wealth. Be a part of this exciting universe today!"

Which MMORPG am I talking about? They all want to be that, but go about it in different ways.

[Lantyssa]

You know the best travel system I've ever seen?  Fallout 3.

Hidden stuff everywhere.  Even if you know your destination, there's twenty things between you and it.  Plus random encounters.  Once you've been to a POI you can quick travel, but it's still often worthwhile to just wander.

Of course it's as much a virtual world as a game, so there you go.

[Malakili]

You know the best travel system I've ever seen?  Fallout 3.

Hidden stuff everywhere.  Even if you know your destination, there's twenty things between you and it.  Plus random encounters.  Once you've been to a POI you can quick travel, but it's still often worthwhile to just wander.

Of course it's as much a virtual world as a game, so there you go.

Add in more dynamic stuff, or a slowly changing world, and you'd be there.  Fallout 3 is great the first time, or, at least until you've seen everything once.  It would run into the problem of everything being on a website before beta ever ended though if it was an MMO.   It would quickly turn from exploring to "Whats the closest POI i have to grid 34, 56 where the thing I need it. Warp, walk straight there, ignore anything else, do your thing, the end.   It works better in single player because wasting time doesn't matter, but in an MMO environment where people are obsessed with competition and progression, exploring around on the chance that  you "might" find something would be considered a waste.

[GenVec]

You know the best travel system I've ever seen?  Fallout 3.

Hidden stuff everywhere.  Even if you know your destination, there's twenty things between you and it.  Plus random encounters.  Once you've been to a POI you can quick travel, but it's still often worthwhile to just wander.

Of course it's as much a virtual world as a game, so there you go.

Add in more dynamic stuff, or a slowly changing world, and you'd be there.  Fallout 3 is great the first time, or, at least until you've seen everything once.  It would run into the problem of everything being on a website before beta ever ended though if it was an MMO.   It would quickly turn from exploring to "Whats the closest POI i have to grid 34, 56 where the thing I need it. Warp, walk straight there, ignore anything else, do your thing, the end.   It works better in single player because wasting time doesn't matter, but in an MMO environment where people are obsessed with competition and progression, exploring around on the chance that  you "might" find something would be considered a waste.

Make the content player-driven. I recall in Asheron's Call, travel was always dangerous and entertaining because I never knew which faction would be in control of a town on a given day, where (player) bandits were lurking, and whether those bandits would view me as a friend.

Player driven content is the only way to preserve an element of mystery in a game, as it's the only type of content that can't be put in an encyclopedia for all the world to read.

This isn't just a niche market you're catering to. These are the strengths of the MMO genre, and when games start being designed towards those strengths again, they'll get remarkably more entertaining. I feel like we're in the dark ages of MMO development, caught somewhere between the Rome of Ultima and EQ and the renaissance that will reinvent their salient features.

[Malakili]

Make the content player-driven. I recall in Asheron's Call, travel was always dangerous and entertaining because I never knew which faction would be in control of a town on a given day, where (player) bandits were lurking, and whether those bandits would view me as a friend.

Player driven content is the only way to preserve an element of mystery in a game, as it's the only type of content that can't be put in an encyclopedia for all the world to read.

This isn't just a niche market you're catering to. These are the strengths of the MMO genre, and when games start being designed towards those strengths again, they'll get remarkably more entertaining. I feel like we're in the dark ages of MMO development, caught somewhere between the Rome of Ultima and EQ and the renaissance that will reinvent their salient features.

I agree on the player driven content front, but I'm trying to walk the line of the exact game I want, and how we can put travel into MMOs in general.  Bottom line is, a lot of people seem to NOT like player driven content.  For all its things that I like, a lot of people find the negatives outweigh the positives - such as things happening when you are not online that you missed and can never "make up," the logistical skills needed to run things 24/7, and so forth.  Personally, I disagree, but I think at least in principle, you could have it in a suitably dynamic PvE game.

[UnSub]

Dangerous travel is fun, new and exciting the first time you undertake it.  Every other time: complete fucking hassle.

I've heard that everyone LOVES random encounters. 

In STO, I've certainly received distress beacons when travelling from one location to another.

Another MMO that recently had more 'realistic' travel was Fallen Earth and I felt - whether I'd been to the location before or not - that spending 15 minutes travelling (and trying not to walk into a mob who might interrupt that travel) is a waste of my time. Watching your character run / ride a horse isn't that fun at all.

[Malakili]

Watching your character run / ride a horse isn't that fun at all.

Well, there are definitely two sides to this.  1) Travel being fun/unfun and 2) Whether or not that travel is worth it in the overall context of the game.  Sure, the actual ACT of traveling isn't all that entertaining in EVE, but that isn't what I've been claiming, its that its *worth it.*  If the result of long travel times (for example: a game with lots of local economies) is worth it, then the travel time makes the game better, even if it isn't fun in itself.  Long travel times for the sake long travel times isn't what we are talking about here, its using the mechanic of a long travel time to improve the game as a whole.   If a game has long travel times and has nothing to show for it, then there are problems.

[Tannhauser]

How about flipping a switch;  one way nothing bothers you as you travel to your destination.  Let's say to meet up with friends for a mission or to hurry to a place.  The other way can generate random encounters as you go.'

This would be potentially good for STO, how many times was the Enterprise diverted from it's intended mission in the TV shows?