Star Trek Online: Here We Go Again!

[Grimwell]

Shatter, do you expect the furnace guy to update you every time he starts a new task on your furnace?
"Ok I'm taking the cover off now."
"Wow, let's change the filter while we are here."
"Ok, I'm going to check the igniter next."
"Let's check the gas lines to make sure they are in good shape too."

No,  because that's annoying and you only want to hear:
"I'm going to take a look."
"The problem is your igniter, it's dead. Let me go get one from my truck."
"Ok, all done, nothing else wrong, sign here and pay please."

With an online game, people tend to demand to know every little detail before it's done. Your analogy does not hold up; because the majority of MMO companies already do hold up the equivalent of communications that a furnace tech does.
"This is our expansion announcement. Here are a few features and we will be working on it for the next year."
"The expansion is going well, we hope to start beta soon."
"Beta!"
"Launch, thanks to everyone who helped us in the beta."

With a game, and everyone being an armchair designer - that's seen as insufficient. With a furnace, plumbing, etc. it's far different because we know that we are paying someone to do a job we can't and don't want to.

[Shatter]

When I pay a monthly fee I expect there is someone working on something related to the game im paying for whether it be fixing bugs, developing content...whatever.  Just like if I pay a guy to put in a new furnace, I expect to be informed and up to speed on the progress of that project until completion.  People expect this type of service since its common...most of the time when you pay money for something constant information about it is part of that process, somehow MMO's seemed to have eluded this practice and have been getting away with it for over 10 years.  We pay $$ each month, thousands of people yet we can go for months in virtual information blackout.  I find it hard to segregate my paying an MMO company for "work" yet getting nothing back in terms of time lines, communication or planned development vs hiring someone to do a job at home or at work.  

You're confused.  You are, at the same moment, deriding the STO developers for not providing you with more information and deriding them for providing you with information.

Which is it?  Do you want to know what content is being worked on and when you can expect to see it or do you want them not to tell you anything until it's done?

You need to wipe your chin, you have some froth on it.

What did I say that made you think I am deriding them for providing information?  I thought my post was clear that I want more information, not less.

[Shatter]

See Grimwell, you think that the information provided is sufficient, thats where I disagree.  Take Aion for example, they posted some vague video about future content that shows all kinds of stuff...in December.  Here we go 3 months later with literally 0 info on any of it.  At the same time we have major issues in the game like the horrible XP curve that again...no information about when it will be fixed.  These are the kinds of communication issues that plague MMO's.  SOE is just as guilty. 

[Grimwell]

Shatter, you do realize that you just completely validated what I said?

Also, have you read the part where I said "Talking more was a good thing." in other fancy words.

Even if we did disagree, that does not make either of us more wrong/right.

Also, NCSoft and the Aion team don't owe you more. You might want more and it might make you a happier customer who's more likely to stick around for the long haul, but they have no obligation to meet that desire.

[Simond]

And if you don't like it, quit and put "poor communication" in your cancellation questionnaire. Companies will only improve on that when they have actual data saying "X% of our cancellations were due to the fact we have worse customer service than the midnight shift local Kwik-E-Mart" rather than just people bitching on forums.

[Calandryll]

Players have the right to know what is going on in the game and what is planned before it goes into the game. They're paying for a service and they have the right to know what is going on with that service so they can make the choice as to whether to continue paying or not. There have been times in the past where companies made changes without notification or made major changes with little warning. That's bad.

To continue Grimwell's example, I brought my car in for service a few weeks ago. I didn't expect the mechanic to tell me every detail of everything he is going to do to see what work needs to be done. But I do expect him to tell me what work he's going to do to my car before he does it, especially if I am being charged for it. If they are running late, I'd hope they'd come tell me they are late. If they need to do extra work I"d want them to tell me. If they tell me it'll be another hour and it's been an hour and a half, I'd want them to give me an update.  Etc. I understand that things come up and delays/mistakes happen - all I want is to be kept in the loop to a fair degree. Most players are the same way.

MMOGs are no different. If we give a date and we're going to miss it, we should tell the players. A 2 or 3 month old update with no further information isn't good and I'd argue we are obligated to do better than that. (disclaimer: that wasn't directed at AION, I have no idea what the issue is there, just speaking in general terms)

How much communication developers should provide is open to debate of course. Funny enough, everything Shatter is asking for can actually be handled on the website without any communication on the forums at all.

[Grimwell]

I agree with everything you said Calandryll... except the world *right* which they don't have. It's like freedom of speech on a private forum, but even less powerful because we don't have a right to knowing things about games in public areas and we do have a right to free speech in public areas.

Smart companies take care of their customers... or they find that they don't have them.

[Calandryll]

Yea I used the word right more to imply that players have the expectation that a subscription service will communicate changes to that service in a timely manner. And that its an expectation I believe their payment for the service entitles them to and that they should expect. The degree to which the communication occurs can be debated (I don't think forum communication falls under this for example) but its always important to remember that the subscritpion fee isn't just for access to the game. It includes access to customer support, billing support, and a host of other things. Its what they are paying for everytime they re-up.

But yea, if all we're debating is what words to use then we agree.

[Kitsune]

I disagree with your analogy, Grim.  A person paying to have their furnace fixed doesn't really care about the furnace, what makes it work, or what the result is.  They want their house to be warm.  This is more like a crazed street racer getting someone to work on their car.  The client is very involved in more than just a single result, they care about the whole process, and very much do not want to see 'their baby' fucked up.

[Surlyboi]

Don't mind Shatter, he seems to have gotten some Vulcan sand in his vag on his last trip there.

[Shatter]

The chafing is killing me 

[koro]

http://www.atari.com/games/startrek_online

So STO is $10 off until March 3rd, and you get 60 free days instead of 30 to boot.

Not. Bitter. At. All.

[Sir T]

The chafing is killing me 

Dont worry. It only chafes every 7 years.

[UnSub]

Communication in MMOs is an odd thing. It's become expected, but there aren't that many other subscription services that get that kind of user input back. Imagine you've got a magazine subscription - after every issue, do you write to them to say what you liked and disliked about the issue? Probably not. But MMOs function with such a rapid release of information and such immediacy of feedback (mostly negative) that it is now expected that every little thing should be available for immediate player comment.

I've been thinking this for a while, but Cryptic is actually hurting itself by trying to be responsive to the community. Players take that as an open invitation to complain that they aren't being heard and that the changes that were promised last week still aren't in while devs end up needing the patience of saints and / or an ego as thick as rhino hide to take it all in. Keep the devs off the boards for the most part and keep up the weekly game reports and they'd still be doing better than most.

The player side of me wants to see more info about what is coming up, but the business side sees that meeting this request gives the developing studio nothing but problems.

Also: Twitter does not count as released information, thx.

[Modern Angel]

http://www.atari.com/games/startrek_online

So STO is $10 off until March 3rd, and you get 60 free days instead of 30 to boot.

Not. Bitter. At. All.

Try again. It's an EXTRA 60 days, meaning 90 free days. That actually irritates me a great deal.

[GenVec]

While canceling my subscription this morning, I realized that I did not once speak to a single other player in the roughly three weeks I played this game.

Truly, this is the future of MMOs.

[Kageru]

Impressive.. I'd love to be at the crisis meeting where they felt forced to make that sort of concession. Though this move seems aimed at shifting more boxes on the expectation of untapped demand, which seems a little optimistic. I would have thought some band-aids on retention would have been the first priority.

[Lantyssa]

Try again. It's an EXTRA 60 days, meaning 90 free days. That actually irritates me a great deal.

It won't matter since most will be done before the first month is up, much less three.

[Shatter]

Try again. It's an EXTRA 60 days, meaning 90 free days. That actually irritates me a great deal.

It won't matter since most will be done before the first month is up, much less three.

Bingo

[Murgos]

What did I say that made you think I am deriding them for providing information?  I thought my post was clear that I want more information, not less.

Its pretty sad when a company, and in this case pretty much every MMO company cant communicate to their subscribers effectively.  The whole idea of we would rather say nothing then give something has been old for a long time.

This is after you blasted them for announcing being late with some new content.

Quote from: Shatter on February 25, 2010, 07:51:46 pm

Then post a date and meet it for a change?  I wiah I had the option to just miss a due date in my job

Either they are screwing up by talking or they are screwing up by not talking.  Which is it?

[Shatter]

What "new content"?  You mean content that should of been in the game at launch?  You mean the PVE content thats completely missing from the Klingon side?  

Oh and I love the decision making of Cryptic.  Here is a 104 page thread of pissed off people that are now being screwed for having bought the game at launch whereas 3 weeks later it is being offering it up for less money and more free time lol

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=128573

[Morfiend]

I feel so vindicated for not buying this right now.

[Shatter]

I feel so vindicated for not buying this right now.

You and me both, what a joke

[01101010]

While I will not purchase this (had my funs in beta), box + 90days is very attractive. In addition to $10 off... I could see a lot of fence sitters jumping off along with the lemmings.

[Shatter]

While I will not purchase this (had my funs in beta), box + 90days is very attractive. In addition to $10 off... I could see a lot of fence sitters jumping off along with the lemmings.

Sure, but have to admit though thats it pretty crappy to pull this on the people that paid more money and got less free time just 3 weeks ago. 

[sigil]

Let it die, you're getting annoying. We get it.

[WindupAtheist]

You mean content that should of been in the game at launch?

Should HAVE!!!

[Setanta]

While I will not purchase this (had my funs in beta), box + 90days is very attractive. In addition to $10 off... I could see a lot of fence sitters jumping off along with the lemmings.

Sure, but have to admit though thats it pretty crappy to pull this on the people that paid more money and got less free time just 3 weeks ago.  

Surely they are going to back date it so that those that bought in early will get the extra time at least?

I keep getting tempted to put down my $$. Then I saw that the offer on the Atari site excludes Australia. Thanks for saving me even more money Atari, I'll spend it somewhere else.

[Shatter]

Let it die, you're getting annoying. We get it.

Yeah you're right, even im getting annoyed at me

[UnSub]

While I will not purchase this (had my funs in beta), box + 90days is very attractive. In addition to $10 off... I could see a lot of fence sitters jumping off along with the lemmings.

Sure, but have to admit though thats it pretty crappy to pull this on the people that paid more money and got less free time just 3 weeks ago. 

It's the Apple strategy: early adopters get it first, later adopters get a better deal. In theory all of those first movers would have of had the opportunity for the pre-order bonuses.

[WindupAtheist]

In theory all of those first movers would have of had the opportunity for the pre-order bonuses.

[Goreschach]

Oh pull the stick out have your ass.

[01101010]

Surely they are going to back date it so that those that bought in early will get the extra time at least?

So how is this going to work with lifetime subs then? 

[Ingmar]

I got your back WUA.

To go on topic, after a couple days of play via the buddy key I got, the game is more fun than I expected. I might do that 3 month deal, I can't see playing it longer than that, but I don't think it would be a waste.

[Daeven]

My rule of software development: you can either get a featureset OR you can get a date. I have *never* seen a particular featureset hit a date picked well in advance without horrific bugginess and a Bataan Death March of a dev effort.

I suppose you could get both 100% bug free. Using Waterfall. Using COBOL. And we'll charge you $10k per cpu per unit. And for the customer support subscription.

But that right there wouldn't be reasonable...

Before agile and scrum and the .dom insanity there was this nifty little book called the Cluetrain manifesto. It's kinda cool that some of those ideas have percolated though the industry in the from of more open communication and rapid dev cycles. Of course, I guess it could be better to bing those ideas to an end to avoid complaints and disappointment when we miss dates. Personally I hope we avoid that scenario, because this is really better.

Software is still going to slip no matter what. Or at least, until GA algorithms write it all for us anyway and and we're left with wondering why Skynet has turned us into Solyent Green.

But I digress.