So does it have legs for F13?

[Nerf]

Yeah, but repulse never did a shitton of damage compared to fire/radiance anyways, it was just thrown in there to let my hots get me back up from 10 things beating on me.

It's really not that big of a deal, it just means the people who are too stupid to active block while cleansing fire refreshes won't be able to pull it off, bleach in the gene pool imho.

And if improved repulse is doing nothing, it's a bug and will get fixed (eventually, lulz) anyways!

[Falconeer]

DISCLAIMER: English is not my language. So, I am serious. But don't take me too seriously.


I can't translate here the paper me and a friend are working on but one of the driving topics of the thing is that MMORPG *can* make you feel lonely.
In a mild and subtle way, the more people is around you, and you are not interacting with them, the lonelier and less comfortable you feel. AoC (PvE servers) gives the player the opportunity to be too self-sufficient, in a way that doesn't foster any kind of team play or socialization. If you are not in with people you really enjoy sharing things with, have a laugh all the time over a voice or simple guild chat, you won't find anything to bond with in a world, conversely, full of people doing  the same things you are doing but on their own. So you'll feel yourself stranger on a foreign land: "...saw the monuments and museums, toured around, tasted local food... even went to a few bars but didn't meet anyone nor made any new friends. Nice city, but it's lonely and cold here, I want to go home". Aren't these virtual worlds, after all?

As buggy and unstable as Age of Conan can be (and it's a bit of both less every 3 days due to heavy patching), the game does so many thing so much better than its rivals that I call batshit (little less aggressive than bullshit) on the unfinished/broken excuses for quitting. The game has many flaws but they are not game breaking (safe for number 1, below) at all and they can't deter from its many many qualities.

In fact, in a presumptuous dickeahd fashion I'll go as far as saying that whoever quits AoC falls in one of these 2 categories:

1) has a rig not powerful enough to run it in full splendor and with smooth framerate (people with lots of client crashes still fall in this category). That would be a good point. Stuttering is fatiguing for the eyes and for the mood. I am totally serious.

2) is pretty much done with MMORPG (unless it's with friends, but then again you could play Shit Online if it's about playing with friends).

In conclusion, I think this game has ADAMANT LEGS, and it'll show in the next 6 months. Sure it won't beat WoW (nothing will ever do), but it'll grow and stay for a long while. There's PLENTY of content already, and lots more is coming. It does many old things well and brings the best one in this genre since... forever. Which incidentally is what thiese games are about: combat.

Take some time off if you want, but in the near future you'll be playing Conan or you'll be somewhere else with your friends just because they are your friends (and their rigs don't run Conan).

[lamaros]

MMOs are about combat? Fail.

[Murgos]

Take some time off if you want, but in the near future you'll be playing Conan or you'll be somewhere else with your friends just because they are your friends (and their rigs don't run Conan).

You're insane.  Step away from the kool-aid.

[Falconeer]

Haha.
We don't have kool-aid here and honestly I don't have the slightest idea about what the hell it is supposed to be. Sounds like refreshing drinkable blood-stoppers.

[Hawkbit]

Haha.
We don't have kool-aid here and honestly I don't have the slightest idea about what the hell it is supposed to be. Sounds like refreshing drinkable blood-stoppers.

Off-topic, but here's the reference:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Scroll down to the heading "Deaths in Jonestown".  It was Flavor Aid, technically, not Kool-aid.  Same function, different brands. 

I can't leave the guy hanging like that....

[Slayerik]

MMOs are about combat? Fail.

You can do better than that lamaros, since over half the time you spend in MMOs involves combat. The amount of bitching/discussion concerning builds and talent sets comes from...wait for it..........Combat and combat effectiveness! You take away a certain dance from people, no biggie. You slightly nerf a character's combat ability and look out folks!

[Brogarn]

While that may be true, Slayerik, that's just a mechanic of an MMO. Not what MMOs are about. MMO's are specifically and foremost about building communities... worlds even. If it was about the combat, you may as well be talking about a single player game.

[Slayerik]

I call bullshit. I don't disagree that the social part is huge in these games, the combat is just as big. Look at how many players do arenas/BGs/dueling outside Org...and that's just WoW.

Combat is THE mechanic in MMOs.

[schild]

Combat is THE mechanic in MMOs.

For a sociopathic PVPer, yea, of course. If you can't make friends, kill them.

[Mrbloodworth]

While that may be true, Slayerik, that's just a mechanic of an MMO. Not what MMOs are about. MMO's are specifically and foremost about building communities... worlds even. If it was about the combat, you may as well be talking about a single player game.

I can't say we are to that point yet. If it were true, then games like Rysom, Seed, SWG pre-CU and Face of mankind would dominate the market. As it happens those games are closed, and or on last legs.

It is about combat, and the shiny.

[Brogarn]

I call bullshit. I don't disagree that the social part is huge in these games, the combat is just as big. Look at how many players do arenas/BGs/dueling outside Org...and that's just WoW.

Combat is THE mechanic in MMOs.

You're mixing up what you do in an MMO with what an MMO is about. Combat is a major part of the game. No doubt. But the social aspects of the MMO is why it's an MMOrpg and not just an rpg. EQ's combat sucked. I'm sorry, but hitting auto attack and slamming taunt whenever it refreshed isn't exactly mind blowing excitement. It was the community that kept people playing. The MMO part.

[Mrbloodworth]

I call bullshit. I don't disagree that the social part is huge in these games, the combat is just as big. Look at how many players do arenas/BGs/dueling outside Org...and that's just WoW.

Combat is THE mechanic in MMOs.

You're mixing up what you do in an MMO with what an MMO is about. Combat is a major part of the game. No doubt. But the social aspects of the MMO is why it's an MMOrpg and not just an rpg. EQ's combat sucked. I'm sorry, but hitting auto attack and slamming taunt whenever it refreshed isn't exactly mind blowing excitement. It was the community that kept people playing. The MMO part.

He said mechanic, not emergent gameplay. Most community's require little to no mechanics, and the games that do have social mechanics...well, see my post above.

In fact, i would argue that in most Dikus its not the community that keeps it going, but showing the community what shiny you have, and they do not.

[Falconeer]

It's interesting to notice that in a post where I pointed out for 2/3 of it that the problem lies in the social commitment/bond and how the game channles you in it, some of you decided to nitpick that sentence about Combat.

Say what you want, but while combat is more than half of what you do in a MMORPG, the other half is the social part that I'd say the quitters are missing, hence they quit.
Honestly, I think the kool-aid comment was more spot on than the combat one.

[Slayerik]

Combat is THE mechanic in MMOs.

For a sociopathic PVPer, yea, of course. If you can't make friends, kill them.

That'f funny, I'm guessing I'm probably twice as social in these games as your are...Mr. Fear of Conflict Carebear.

[schild]

Rationalize it however you want.

[Brogarn]

In fact, i would argue that in most Dikus its not the community that keeps it going, but showing the community what shiny you have, and they do not.

That's a social aspect you're trying to use as proof of combat being the main draw for these games. It's petty, but it's most certainly social.

EDIT : And further, that's a generalization. Yes, there are people more concerned about how they look to others and bragging about it, but I'd call that a section of the community as opposed to the whole.

[Viin]

So you (generic you) are telling me that if we removed Combat from WOW it'd be just as popular?

[Brogarn]

No, because combat is what you do while in WoW. It's the entertainment. But that's not what it's about. Would you play WoW if it was single player?

[Viin]

I don't think I get it - if all we care about is social (no combat) why wouldn't we just stick to chat rooms and IRC?

[schild]

I don't think I get it - if all we care about is social (no combat) why wouldn't we just stick to chat rooms and IRC?

Most of us talk more on a message board (or IM) than we probably play games. I bet you talk more in the Eve channel while traveling then you spend in "combat" as well.

[Brogarn]

I don't think I get it - if all we care about is social (no combat) why wouldn't we just stick to chat rooms and IRC?

I'll reverse that. If all we care about is combat, why are we playing online with other people?

EDIT: Bah. Accidental post. Anyways...

If it was about combat, we could just post on a board or in a chat room about how we kicked ass in a single player game. Here's a screenshot of my new uber fantastic weapon. But that's not what it's about. It's about playing with other people. Socializing with other people. Sharing experiences with other people. That's what an MMO is about.

[Viin]

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean I want a "game" that's nothing more than a chat box with a screen saver background. It's the combat/industrial game we all play for, though we enjoy doing it together and against other players.

Sure forums are popular, but no one is paying you $15/m to be here. :)

I'll reverse that. If all we care about is combat, why are we playing online with other people? W

Because we enjoy doing it together and against *human* opponents. We learn from each other, back each other up, have a team, etc..

[Slayerik]

Don't try to figure it out Viin, its not worth it. :)

The funny thing is I think we all know what the other sides are referring to, just arguing the semantics.


Shit, back to being a sociopath. What did I do with my box, anyways!?!!? Must...get...back...in...my...box!!!!

[Brogarn]

I added an edit above. Failed my keyboard dexterity roll and accidently hit post somehow without meaning to. 

[Viin]

I added an edit above. Failed my keyboard dexterity roll and accidently hit post somehow without meaning to. 

Heh that's what happens when we're quick to post!

I understand what you are saying - I believe the social part is very important and these games wouldn't be engaging without it. But I also believe that the social experience must revolve around some common activity otherwise the social scene just falls apart (or becomes just another IRC channel that no one wants to pay for). It's a 50/50 thing - you have to have some of each in order to have a good compelling experience that keeps people hooked and paying your subscription fee.

[Rasix]

All I can say Rasix, is try a PoM before you quit, once I got the assassin to 53, I had tried rolling a few alts, got a handful to 20, but none of them made me really want to login.

I have a 32 PoM.  Good class.  Only char other than my bear shaman (fucking nerfs (not you)) that got higher than 25.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion 

[Mrbloodworth]

For the record, i, personally, and not denying the social aspects of MMO's. I just make a distinction between mechanics, and what people will do with out need of a mechanic.

[cevik]

It's about playing with other people. Socializing with other people. Sharing experiences with other people.

Fighting things with other people.

[Brogarn]

We're close to agreement, but are disagreeing on the finer points. I mean you, Viin, not that anti-social PvP people hater Slayerik (which I say in complete jest).

Combat is the means to the end. The end being, hanging out with friends online and sharing experiences. I once again bring up EQ's combat system. Boring as shit and absolutely no draw to it. But people played it for years because of their friends, guilds, etc. AoC does it far better, but it will still get repetitive. It will be the online friends that keep you around.

Even PvPers are online for social reasons. You can't tell me that grudges, KoS lists, you and your friends taking down opponents aren't a big part, and most likely the biggest part, of why you play the game. The combat is just the mechanism for all of that. It obviously helps if it's a good one and fun on top of that. But it's the social aspects and community that keeps most people playing. It's also the reason they played to begin with. Because why play an MMO at all? Hit up the FPS's for PvP if you're just about the combat and pwning people. You don't because MMO's are worlds. Worlds with communities.

[schild]

At this point, MMOGs are just a way of making chatting more fun. Or if you have a second monitor, something else to do while you catch up with TV and movies.

Unfortunately, they are mere supplement to non-gaming endeavors. Maybe they'll be more one day. Maybe. Not with the current bunch of devs though I don't think.

Edit: In other words, yes. The social part. Everything else is total supplement. It's like when kids don't want to switch schools. They might not like school, but all their friends are there. Think of guilds as schools. When they die down, people leave. Or they all move to the same place - a new [strike]school[/strike] game.

[Venkman]

No. Second Life is a way to have more fun while chatting. DIKU MMORPGs* are about combat first.

It's easy: if the combat sucks, the game is unpopular when compared to games where the combat doesn't suck. You can have all the fancy house building, music playing, chicken racing in the world, but if your combat engine feels like you're playing WoW underwater... well, good luck with that.

Falc said something else up there too.

* Not all games called MMOs should be said in the same breath as if they compare. SL to ATiTD to WoW for example.

[Soukyan]

I'm starting to see more class breakdowns and talk of over/underpowered classes, etc. It looks like the lipstick is starting to wear off the pig. Implosion is imminent!

Note: I still want to try the game out. I'm still in vicarious mode with the f13 crew. Seeing how it all shakes out. I should be trying it around October at the earliest. Or maybe sometime next year.

[Brogarn]

No, combat may be the draw but it's still just a mechanism.

Meh. I'm done.

[Venkman]

It's the game. The game! THE GAME!! RAR RAR!

(just kidding).

Yea, it's the draw. Emergent gameplay and social ties become the retainer of course. People don't just fight in these games after playing six months or a year. Well, ok, some do sure. But for the most part, the social bonds created by social people (because some are not social) transcend the specific activity. That's when the game itself becomes a hobby.

It doesn't for everyone of course, but does for many.

However, that combat isn't just the draw. SWG NGE is the perfect example of how you can break the strongest social ties by redesigning the reason people are there. You can screw up a game enough to chase people away. Even UO didn't do that with its wholesale change.