I shine my greens with raider tears.

[Nija]

On a side note, this goes back to the "raiding takes no skill" argument and lays it flat. If raiding took no skill then everyone would be able to beat all the content easily which is certainly not true.

What was required to beat that content? Did every single person have to farm items that gave off a certain amount of resist? Did they have to learn to 2 step and do the Kingston Trot? What kind of skill was required to break through this brick wall?

(I honestly don't know, I was done with wow within the first 6 months (2 months actually spent playing) and haven't looked back.)

[Hutch]

WoW raiding takes the following:
- 25* people learning the fights. What to do, and when to do it. 5 people have to click on the cubes in a 5 second window, or the raid blows up.
- 25 people paying attention for the whole span of the fight. This is the most unpredictable part. Disconnects, spouse aggro, child aggro, baby aggro, pet aggro, phone, bio, etc.
- 25 people being well-geared enough to take on the opponents. Whether "well-geared" means you have the required base health, base dps, base healing, or some other minimum set of stats. This means you need gear. Which means you needed to sit through the previous "tier" of raid dungeons and/or battlegrounds.
- To get to the next "tier", you need gear from the current "tier". This means you have to repeat the content until your gear drops. You can collect badges and purchase gear with them, as a form of a shortcut, but you still have to grind dungeons to get those badges.

* I use the number 25, but you can sub in 10 or 40 to fit whichever instance you want to visit.

The ability to free up enough time to accomplish the above isn't really a skill; it's a matter of sacrificing something else  you could be doing in RL.

The ability to sit still for 2+ hours, and pay attention during that time, is closer to being a skill. A lot of people just can't do this. Getting 25 of them to do it at the same time is a challenge. That's why not everyone gets to see raid content.

[Kirth]

On a side note, this goes back to the "raiding takes no skill" argument and lays it flat. If raiding took no skill then everyone would be able to beat all the content easily which is certainly not true.

What was required to beat that content? Did every single person have to farm items that gave off a certain amount of resist? Did they have to learn to 2 step and do the Kingston Trot? What kind of skill was required to break through this brick wall?

(I honestly don't know, I was done with wow within the first 6 months (2 months actually spent playing) and haven't looked back.)

I'm not sure how to quantify it, its easy to say raiding is all farming consumables and learning a pattern but until you've tried it, its just talk. I'll just say on the example pre-nerf gruul, you either had "it" or you didn't. "It" being ability to maintain a high level of effectiveness (tanking/dps/healing/agro-management) while dealing with split second choices about position (shatter).

[WindupAtheist]

Most of what delights me about this move on Blizzard's part is that it makes large-scale raiding strictly an activity for people who like large-scale raiding.  Imagine that.  The gear quit being a requisite for top-end PVP with TBC, and it'll quit being the only way to see the later content with WOTLK.  So it's just... something to do.  If you like it.

The raiders I know who just like raiding haven't made a peep about this.  But retards on the forums who are used to RAIDER = KING OF THE GAME are just crushed.

[Merusk]

All of these arguments (Particularly they "you could have been doing something useful with your life") can be applied to any game.  None of them require any real skill. NONE.  Just the patience to sit there and plug away until you find the right pattern.  The only place I'll even begin to listen to a skill argument is in pvp.  That's it.  And only in FPS pvp.

The way MMO pvp is designed these days, it's still 90% sitting on your ass doing something useless for large chunks of time, until you find the right build/ combo/ assemblage of team members or bits from a kit of parts to pwn face.   Just. Like. PvE. AND Just. Like. Consoles.

The biggest barrier to raiding is the time it takes.  Yes, that's stupid design.  No, I don't want to hear about how leet you are that you can beat Metroid in less time... because you still took more time gaining that skill than the MMOs you bitch about.

This argument gets more retarded every time it cycles around.

Most of what delights me about this move on Blizzard's part is that it makes large-scale raiding strictly an activity for people who like large-scale raiding.  Imagine that.  The gear quit being a requisite for top-end PVP with TBC, and it'll quit being the only way to see the later content with WOTLK.  So it's just... something to do.  If you like it.

The raiders I know who just like raiding haven't made a peep about this.  But retards on the forums who are used to RAIDER = KING OF THE GAME are just crushed.

Exactly.

[stray]

Oh c'mon now. Skill only required for FPS? Try beating me at Horse in skate beyotch. 

[Gobbeldygook]

That raiding mostly involves just mashing your buttons is what makes the ability of people to FAIL so completely particularly aggravating.  I've started asking my guildmates to log their pugs so I can add people to my blacklist without having to group with them myself.  For example, as a result of >this< WWS, I decided to just add an entire guild to my blacklist.  My favorite one is the raid leader, Zildard.  He's in full tier 4+ and yet he does less DPS than what a non-retarded frost mage in greens and blues would do.

[Fabricated]

Most of what delights me about this move on Blizzard's part is that it makes large-scale raiding strictly an activity for people who like large-scale raiding.  Imagine that.  The gear quit being a requisite for top-end PVP with TBC, and it'll quit being the only way to see the later content with WOTLK.  So it's just... something to do.  If you like it.

The raiders I know who just like raiding haven't made a peep about this.  But retards on the forums who are used to RAIDER = KING OF THE GAME are just crushed.

That's pretty much what I'm hoping for really. I enjoyed seeing all of Kara, I'm enjoying seeing Zul'Aman. Some of you people are just really fucking miserable. Shit, all but maybe 2-3 people in my small guild like eachother and enjoy playing the game in a non-serious manner. Yeah, if you're raiding with 24 loot sponges you hate because you wanna raid you're gonna not like it, you'll just do it to appease that reptilian part of your brain that gives you a small bit of pleasure from seeing numbers increase.

Not like pattern memorization and reflexes aren't 90% of uh...nearly every fucking video game of every genre ever made ever.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, if you're raiding with 24 loot sponges you hate

Loot whoring turns about 70-80% of normal people into that sort of despicable shitheel regardless of how good or casual the game is.

[Tale]

And since you seem to care, this is coming from someone that has done 'progression' raiding for every boss in BC (well, not the Sunwell shit, but up to and including Illidan). 

As an experienced raider, I took one look at Burning Crusade's progression and thought "that's just crap" and stopped playing WoW.

So I wouldn't know about your BC raids that apparently took no skill.

[Tale]

You've levelled up one paladin into greens and never raided. Why are you trying to discuss raiding?

Yeah, because no one could speak upon the complex and elite world of raiding unless they've partaken, right?

It's a fairly reliable rule in life that someone who has a lot of experience doing something probably knows more about it than someone who has never done it. So yes, what you said.

My guild exists because of people like you. The ones who post all over message boards about their latest noob adventures in a diku, telling us their wild ideas for looting rules and tactics. So we left and started a guild without them.

There's an apparent assumption in the thread that I must be caught up in some kind of raiding progression and trying to justify it. Actually it's a couple of years since I've been in any raiding game.

The reason I know it took skill is that there were individuals I came to admire. No, WUA, not because they had shinies round their necks. I admired them because they were better at the game than me. If they were online, I knew we were more likely to win encounters, because they regularly made the right decisions at the right time. Call it skill, call it talent, whatever - those people had it and others lacked it.

Given the appropriate strategy and level of gear, is there any reason why 25 players who are completely mediocre but who don't make any critical fuckups couldn't win any raid in the game?  Hell, is there any reason a guy with 25 accounts, 25 computers, and the urge to write a lot of detailed scripts couldn't theoretically just bot his way through one?

You are trying to tell me that because a million monkeys with a million typewriters would eventually write the works of Shakespeare, that writing takes no skill. It does, actually. Raiding is not Shakespeare, it's just gameplay. But if you have some ability at it, you'll do it better and get there faster, maybe even be able to discuss it afterwards with some insight.

Edit - Also, my experience is in a guild in a low-population time zone. Often we wouldn't have the 25 or whatever people we needed to do a raid, and we'd end up doing it with 19 and still win (just). We could still wipe if we had a full 25, it just depended who was there. If we had the right 19 people, even if the class balance was all wrong, we could win if we played well.

This came more into play in EverQuest, where there was no cap on the number of people in a raid. Encounters were designed simply to be near-impossible for any number of people. So you had to either approach it with some vast zerg force (frowned on) or with a smaller raid of quality players. Every raid could still wipe, but if you could make good progress with a bunch of good players, that was more admired. And that's what we had to do as a low-pop Aussie guild, and that's how I came to see the skill in those players. In a guild that has no trouble with numbers and just keeps throwing bodies at something till it works, I guess you never see that.

[Typhon]

[...] but if you could make good progress with a bunch of good players, that was more admired. [...]

This is the major disconnect between how you are playing these games, and how many other people ("noobs", "casuals") are playing these games.  You are looking for some sort of admiration for playing a game.  For a time it was there, you had the loot the prove it.  But then the developers had to go and ruin it by making so that just anyone could get loot, and they didn't even need to do corpse runs!  They turned their backs on the chosen, the hardcore.  It's a fucking tragedy.  I hope the money hats they are wearing because of it aren't as comfortable as they look.

On a less sarcastic note:  I'd agree, an aptitude for situational awareness, fast reflexes and an ability to stay calm under pressure is a skill (skills, actually).  I'd even agree that these skills tend to come in handy when learning a new zone, undergeared or undermanned.  These are not the skills that are needed for the period of time where you are grinding a known zone for the gear.  I'd say, "neurotic need to have a badge that says 'I'm teh bestest evah!'" is the skill that is needed to get through those periods of time.  I can't really say I admire anyone for wanting to get a sense of selfworth from a video game.

Also, when developers make games for those people, I tend to hate those games.  So for purely selfish reasons your style of gaming must die.

[rk47]

The hard part of raiding is doing the instance more than once. Which, by the way, is certainly a requirement of raiding.

aye it's my only sore point with this raiding system. Its quite hard to accomplish with 4 other strangers but to do that and still end up with no loot? ouch!

[lamaros]

On a less sarcastic note:  I'd agree, an aptitude for situational awareness, fast reflexes and an ability to stay calm under pressure is a skill (skills, actually).  I'd even agree that these skills tend to come in handy when learning a new zone, undergeared or undermanned.  These are not the skills that are needed for the period of time where you are grinding a known zone for the gear.  I'd say, "neurotic need to have a badge that says 'I'm teh bestest evah!'" is the skill that is needed to get through those periods of time.  I can't really say I admire anyone for wanting to get a sense of selfworth from a video game.

Also, when developers make games for those people, I tend to hate those games.  So for purely selfish reasons your style of gaming must die.

Patience, an ability to put up with repetitive tasks, to forgive others mistakes, and to tolerate fools are all, in a certain respect, skills. They are also needed to get through those periods of time. I personaly don't have them and I tend to quit MMOGs when the need for those skills outweighs the need for the former, but I'm not going to go out of my way and slag off a whole group of people. I've played with many people like that and enjoyed their company and admire a few of their 'skills'.

I disliked most of them, really disliked quite a few, but that doesn't change much. Most of the people in life are fuckwits anywhere you go.

And I can assure you, as someone who has played WoW recently with people like that, that no one hates repetitive shit more than the people who are determined to do it over and over again just for the payoff of the next new encounter/new loot. These people play for the challenge of doing something before other people, not doing it more times than other people.

[lamaros]

Most of what delights me about this move on Blizzard's part is that it makes large-scale raiding strictly an activity for people who like large-scale raiding.  Imagine that.  The gear quit being a requisite for top-end PVP with TBC, and it'll quit being the only way to see the later content with WOTLK.  So it's just... something to do.  If you like it.

Actually 25 man raiding is going to have the best gear, and probably the best challenges too.

So people who like things that are really hard but prefer doing them with 4 and 9 friends instead of 24 semi-strangers will still have to suck it up and deal with it in order to find challenges.

And the people who don't PvP and don't raid but want lots of shiny shit will still complain too.

But it is a step in the right direction.

[Merusk]

Patience, an ability to put up with repetitive tasks, to forgive others mistakes, and to tolerate fools are all, in a certain respect, skills.

They are.  The first is a business skill in modern life.  The latter two are social skills.

[amiable]

This is the major disconnect between how you are playing these games, and how many other people ("noobs", "casuals") are playing these games.  You are looking for some sort of admiration for playing a game.  For a time it was there, you had the loot the prove it.  But then the developers had to go and ruin it by making so that just anyone could get loot, and they didn't even need to do corpse runs!  They turned their backs on the chosen, the hardcore.  It's a fucking tragedy.  I hope the money hats they are wearing because of it aren't as comfortable as they look.

This. 

I remember when my wife (girlfriend at the time) and I first started playing WoW, it was our "first" raiding experience in an MMORPG, our guild was on a relatively high pop server and we were the second progressed guild horde-side.  I raided all content up through the first half of AQ.

My opion:  Raiding is completely mindless skilless timesink, generally populated with 2 types of personalities:

1.  Lametards whose entire self-worth is invested in proving they are teh best video game player evah!
2.  Everyone else who likes to have good gear for someother activity they enjoy more (PvP, farming, sitting at the Auction house, whatever...)

We raided pre-nerfed MC, and all of BWL and let me tell you, it was a boring pointless timesink where the only skill involved was convincing folks to pressbutton at the right time.  Most of the mouth-breathers in this guild were utter wastes IRL who were either socially retarded misfits or ADD addled 14 year olds.  If this group of losers could progress through content any group of sufficiently committed idiots could do it.

What finally ended it for me and my wife (beyond the fact that playing a video game had become a f-ing job) was when one of our guildmates had a long-winded diatribe in Vent about how casuals "didn't deserve" good gear because they didn't have the "will to power."  I swear to god I wish I had taped this speech because it was comedy gold that centered on the philosophy of Nietzche and Ayn Rand and how raiding weeds out those who "stive for excellence."

At the end of the conversation I simply said: "Yeah, I'm sure Ayn Rand would view some guy sitting in his basement playing a video game 50 hours a week as a model of human achievement."  We both quit within a week and never looked back.

The only activity that took a modicum of "skill" in the game was PvP, and at least the really good PvPers (not the Rank 14 no-life poop-sockers, but folks who actually were good in spite of gear) were actually friendly and had some perspective.

Conclusion:  Group PvE activities of more than 10 people are generally miserable experiences that appeal only to a very niche audience that Blizzard is absolutely correct in marginalizing.   

[WindupAtheist]

Actually 25 man raiding is going to have the best gear, and probably the best challenges too.

Well sure, if the 25 man raids didn't have the best gear, then they would have relatively little reason to exist.  But as I hear it, the gear from a 10 is only going to be one tier lower than that from the equivalent 25, so it sounds like only the 25 man version of the highest raid will have anything you can't get anywhere else.  It's a prize that the hardest of the hardcore PVE types will lust after, but I suspect the overwhelming majority of the WoW playerbase just won't give enough of a crap to care.  Especially given that someone who's equally hardcore can eschew joining a large guild, and just PVP his way to top-end arena gear that will melt said raider's face anyway.

Respect my poopsock, you filthy scrub newb!

No.  It's carefully scripted MMO PVE.  It's not some secret elite incomprehensible gameplay that no one can grok unless they sink a chunk of their life into it.  It's carefully scripted MMO PVE.  It requires far less individual skill than... say... beating Street Fighter 2 on your SNES with the AI set all the way to Hard.  I mean at least nobody can say "Okay, Ryu will do a Shoryuken every 40 seconds, followed by three Hadokens, so be ready to counter with Yoga Flame!"

The only way this carefully devised mathematical formula can require anything resembling improvisation is if someone else is doing something wrong.  And if covering for the fuckups of others were fun, well, I'd pug a lot more.

[stray]

Actually, when I played WoW, I found that pugging with idiots was quite fun. Especially Paladins. It brought some life into the game.

Wouldn't want that on a large scale though.

[Nija]

I thought the best gear these days was arena/pvp gear?

[stray]

I think that depends on your spec...

Eh, fuck if I know. 

[Zetor]

I've never done any 25man raids since my guild is casual... I have done some 40-mans [up to bwl] before BC when some other guild asked me to tag along. Honestly, I don't think either the pve or the pvp [arena, bg] aspect of WOW takes 'much skill'. But at least it's fun. Or something. :P 5-man dungeons and small group pvp are the best part of WOW, imo.

Re gear: arena/pvp stuff is best for pvp (notable exceptions are classes that can get away with using pve gear, ie paladins). It's mediocre-to-good for pve, depending on class (it sucks for priests or rogues, but it's pretty nice for enhancement shaman or dps warriors... etc). And even the 'best' pvp pieces are worse than their tier6 equivalent from raids / badges.

Edit: actually, most of the 'high end' pvp stuff is worse than equivalent tier5 pieces for pve; SSC and TK (tier5 raid instances) are pugged on some servers already, so there ya go.


-- Z.

[Brogarn]

There's a fairly large sense of accomplishment for a guild to get through a raid together and be able to do it repeatedly quicker while outfitting their guild in ways that others can't. It's also a pretty big social event. While you can't chatter all the time, a lot of chatter does happen. It's also a joint achievement, which leads to further discussion points, jointly felt feelings of accomplishment, etc. While the argument of skill can go back and forth, it's patience and perseverance that can't be denied. You need both to be successful and there are those that thrive on them. While there's definitely some that take it too far, I think that raiders deserve at least some respect for accomplishing their goals by dealing with a lot of setbacks, annoyances, people, and whatnot. Especially those that pave the way into a new raid dungeon and figure out the patterns and gotchas.

Personally, I'm more of the small, tight knighted social group type. I like the achievements of the 5 and 10 man dungeon runs far more than the large, over the weekend raid stuff. Still, I don't despise the raider types in general and I do think they should be rewarded for how much time and patience they put into a game.

[WindupAtheist]

I'm still chuckling at Tale's stupid-ass "admiration" post and how his guild formed to get away from dumb newbs like me who don't treat the numbers on their imaginary armor as super important business.  Like I'm supposed to feel inferior or something.  It's the same sort of "I take this shit way too seriously" vibe I used to get when some of the usual suspects would expound upon the incredibly deep and meaningful bonds of honor and friendship that only old-school UO ganking could forge.

Eat my ass, Tale.  I'm a big lame newb scrub who treats an MMO as a hobby to goof off in, and I don't give a fuck.  Frankly, the idea of a few baseball teams worth of people all sitting in rapt attention for hours per night, however many nights per month, killing the same bosses over and over and over so that they can all get better pretend helmets kinda creeps me out.

[shiznitz]

I won't go so far as to say that there is no skill needed in MMOGs. But I will go so far to say that 99% of the players have enough skill to enjoy the game up to the level they want.  Reading a mob strategy before your raid so you can be ready for it is not skill.  Fighting a mob. Dying. Trying something new. Dying. Refining that something new and winning. That is about all the skill one needs (and one could argue that isn't skill at all.)  Face it. Gamers tend to be geeks/dorks/nerds at some level and that cadre usually has a right-skewed IQ distribution compared to the population at large. 

But there are exceptions. One very nice guy I have played MMOGs with since 1999 will just never be "good" at them. He gets lost easily. He dies trying to get to his destination when no one else even gets aggro. He is the last person to notice an add and is the last person to react in game to a command/suggestion in vent. He just is what he is and we drag him along because it is just a game.

[Kirth]

Like I'm supposed to feel inferior or something. 

Thats how your last post comes across. It is kinda funny, your just as fanatical about being casual as some of the hardcore raiders you enjoy vilifying are about raiding.

[amiable]

Like I'm supposed to feel inferior or something. 

Thats how your last post comes across. It is kinda funny, your just as fanatical about being casual as some of the hardcore raiders you enjoy vilifying are about raiding.

WUPs attitude is not even on the same planet as some of the D-baggery that comes out of Raiders mouths.

Case in point:
http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/107355333/p1

My favorite part:

"What happens now? Well, that's not up to us, it's up to you. Those of us that have been here will always be members of DnT, our characters will disappear, but our memories will not. We didn't create our legend, we were just a group of friends who loved killing raid bosses. All the people who came to our website, and followed our progress, and cheered for our accomplishments, you created the legend, and ultimately you will have the last chapter in this story."

Yeah, thats someone with the proper perspective right there.

[Valmorian]

Thats how your last post comes across.

Really?  Seemed like amusing mocking to me..

[Nebu]

We didn't create our legend, we were just a group of friends who loved killing raid bosses. All the people who came to our website, and followed our progress, and cheered for our accomplishments, you created the legend, and ultimately you will have the last chapter in this story."

That one made my day.  I'm still giggling. 

MMO Gamers... priceless.

[Lightstalker]

I thought the best gear these days was arena/pvp gear?

That depends on the day.  A year ago (or whenever they patched in BT) when only a few guilds were in T6 content there was a massive boost to PvP gear in order to keep those few guilds with T6 access from utterly dominating the arena sport PvP scene.  Since PvP gear was largely a fixed time for fixed reward proposition, and the quality of performance over that time largely immaterial, there was an imbalance in risk vs. reward for PvP vs. PvE.  Season 3, and moreso in season 4, gear start to place limits and requirements on the desireable loot that when coupled with easier access to the PvE endgame means for many the risk vs reward balance between PvP and PvE is at a better balance point.  PvE really hasn't had much of a ceiling increase since TBC, Arenas have had to keep their progression and ladder relevant, which means you are doing the same thing in PvP for a better reward than the PvE side repeating the PvE content can get.  It isn't always easier to upgrade through PvP anymore, so now it comes to how one wants to spend their time in game.  Of course, if your guild is stuck in Karazahn... PvP is still the easiest and best upgrade path (roughly 70% of all players, e.g. the missing 7M + not listed on wowjutsu and or stuck on Kara). 

Most of my SPriest's gear is PvE/crafted with the exception of the PvP necklace.
My Rogue's gear is split between PvE and PvP - limited only by time and inclination to play melee dps.
My Resto Shaman will gear out through crafted and PvE gear much like my SPriest (stuck at lvl 66 for 3 months though).

DPS warriors have a lot of 'easy' upgrades from PvP loot.  It used to be that everyone had the upgrade path of least resistance running through the Arenas and Battlegrounds.

[d4rkj3di]

Get this, poopsockers. You never mattered. Nobody but your fellow poopsockers ever cared about your opinions. And with this expansion, you're being shown the door. Or at least being told to go sit quietly in the corner. So go sit in your 25-man poopsock playpen and tell each other how awesome you are. Everyone else will be killing Arthas in 10-mans and won't give a crap.

This is pretty much how I feel. I ran Molten Core a total of 3 times shortly after launch before I realized raiding was completely worthless as something I find enjoyable. What I found enjoyable was ganking the hell out of noobs in Westfall, Redridge, Hillsbrad and STV. I reactivated 2 days ago after 18 months away from the game. Raiding still sucks, but noob ganking is timeless. The bonus is I don't have to shit in a sock.

Anything that is filling hardcore catasses with this much nerdrage is good for 99.5% of the players.

[Kitsune]

I raided during my time in WoW, and in all honesty I liked it less than running 5-man instances.  The presentation of raid instances just never felt as complete as the smaller ones.  I mean, when wandering down a hall in Scholomance and the party gets jumped by some undead, there's activity and interest for everyone in the party.  When going through a raid and some giant trash monster shows up, you spend thirty seconds staring at a foot while forty people pinprick the thing to death.  The bosses are the only worthwhile features of raids; the other monsters and surroundings are just filler, and it shows.

If I'm gonna blow an hour or two running around in an instance, I'd prefer to do so in an instance that looks like every inch was designed to entertain, not just the boss fights.  The instance fights I undertook while working for my 1.5 gear were all more interesting and challenging than the raids I attended, because each one hinged significantly on me.  When you're in a five-man group and you have to make it through Stratholme in fifteen minutes, or survive a special arena fight in BRD, your performance directly determines whether the party succeeds.  In a group with twenty or more people, though, it's nearly impossible to excel.  You're a statistic, a mote of hit points and DPS, and unless you manage to totally fuck up somehow, odds are good that you won't impact the success or failure of the raid.

That being said, I don't really care about raiders one way or the other.  Nightly commitments of running raids to build DKP for one item is not for me, but I don't begrudge anyone else who chooses to do so.

[amiable]

One would have better luck explaining the international and domestic trade policies and their impact on grain prices to the swine you feed that grain than one would have trying to explain this whole issue with D&T (and the current state of this game) to most of the people playing WoW.

I suggest The Fountainhead as reading material for everyone.

For all you Ellsworth Tooheys out there, it doesn't matter whether or not it's a video game, or building skyscrapers, or being a homemaker; the pursuit of excellence is the "thing". Championing "mediocrity" and "the average" and "every man" and "the masses" only makes you mediocre. Further, as you spout it out from the highest mountaintop or wherever you can find an audience, it just sounds like what it is: petty jealousy and "sour grapes" over the inability to achieve what others have.

Is it fair or reasonable to draw such comparisons to "world firsts" in a video game (played by over 10 million people)? I don't know, but it's not so unreasonable to consider such comparisons within this milieu since we're posting on a message board DEVOTED TO THIS GAME!

  I didn't read it all the way through,  some guy actually brought up Ayn Rand.  Priceless.   What is it with these dudes and Ayn Rand?

[WindupAtheist]

Oh man, Scrub versus Poopsock could be the new Trammel versus Felucca.  We just need Grunk to come in here and be the new Sinij, and we'll be on our way to thirty pages of awesome.

 

[photek]