I shine my greens with raider tears.

[Ratama]

What was required to beat that content? Did every single person have to farm items that gave off a certain amount of resist? Did they have to learn to 2 step and do the Kingston Trot? What kind of skill was required to break through this brick wall?

(I honestly don't know, I was done with wow within the first 6 months (2 months actually spent playing) and haven't looked back.)

No real skill required; just basic MMO gameplay familiarity and shitloads of time (and in pre-nerf Gruul's case, especially, a lot of luck).

[Tale]

[...] but if you could make good progress with a bunch of good players, that was more admired. [...]

This is the major disconnect between how you are playing these games, and how many other people ("noobs", "casuals") are playing these games.  You are looking for some sort of admiration for playing a game.

I don't know what possessed you to tar me with all this "you people" bullshit, or assume that I refer to people as "noobs" and "casuals". I've made it pretty clear that I seek NO PERSONAL GLORY WHATSOEVER from raiding games, but you're still banging on as if I've been raiding for attention.

Among a circle of people who engage in some kind of activity, there will be a subset who earn the admiration of some of the others. Whether it's raiding or cross-stitching. And it will vary over time with successes and failures. There's nothing wrong or unusual in that. People who don't care for cross-stitching are irrelevant - it's just something that matters to the cross-stitchers at the time.

I can't really say I admire anyone for wanting to get a sense of selfworth from a video game.

OH, JUST LIKE ME! I SEE. Why do you feel the need to apply an undeserved label and insult me for it?

Damn right I get a sense of self-worth from completing a common goal with people whose company I enjoy. That's all raiding in a MMOG has ever been for me. But you're trying to portray it as a crutch, as if it was my only source of self-worth, when it's only a hobby activity.

Also, when developers make games for those people, I tend to hate those games.  So for purely selfish reasons your style of gaming must die.

Again you've got something in mind that I'm not, applying foolish assumptions like "your style of gaming" to me, with a kind of Fires of Heaven uberguild in mind. I've never been in any guild of that type. You know nothing at all about my style of gaming.

[Tale]

Respect my poopsock, you filthy scrub newb!

No.  It's carefully scripted MMO PVE.  It's not some secret elite incomprehensible gameplay that no one can grok unless they sink a chunk of their life into it.  It's carefully scripted MMO PVE.  It requires far less individual skill than... say... beating Street Fighter 2 on your SNES with the AI set all the way to Hard.  I mean at least nobody can say "Okay, Ryu will do a Shoryuken every 40 seconds, followed by three Hadokens, so be ready to counter with Yoga Flame!"

The only way this carefully devised mathematical formula can require anything resembling improvisation is if someone else is doing something wrong.  And if covering for the fuckups of others were fun, well, I'd pug a lot more.

"This is what raiding is like because I JUST KNOW, even though I've never, ever been on a raid in any game."

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

[WindupAtheist]

I could have sworn I started this thread.  And that MMO PVE is an activity essentially devoid of the need for skill in general.

In other news, I now have to fight the urge to use the Comic Strip Generator in every post.

[Tale]

I'm still chuckling at Tale's stupid-ass "admiration" post and how his
...
Eat my ass, Tale.

Yes, you started the thread. And you apparently hovered over your thread while I was busy offline. You camped the thread, hoping for some action. Nothing happened in six hours, so you couldn't resist responding again to my old post. Maybe if you mentioned me by name and said something strong enough, I would respawn and drop a nice phat reply.

A day and a half later I get back here, reply, and look what happens - I get an instant response.

If anyone here is in poopsock territory, it's you.

[amiable]

The sad truth is we are ALL poopsockers! 

[WindupAtheist]

If only it took 24 other people to post a message.  Then you'd admire me for it.

[Valmorian]

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

Unfortunately for you, what he's saying is essentially true.  Raiding IS about learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

[Merusk]

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

WUA's just bored and gone back to trolling.  He can't do Trammel vs Felucia anymore, so this is his new bag.  He as much as admitted it a few pages back.  I'd realized it on Monday but figured it was more amusing for me to wach people beat their heads against the wall or pump his e-peen than to mention it.   Now you've gone and spoiled that fun for me, damn you Tale.

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

Unfortunately for you, what he's saying is essentially true.  Raiding IS about learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

Yeah, if only we could have innovative video games where you didn't repeat the same action over and over and over until completion.  Like Starcraft, or Conan, or Mario, or Pong, or Pac Man...

Oh wait.

[Kirth]

learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

Anything learned via pattern recognition and repetition is not a skill?

[amiable]

Yeah, if only we could have innovative video games where you didn't repeat the same action over and over and over until completion.  Like Starcraft, or Conan, or Mario, or Pong, or Pac Man...

Oh wait.

Yeah, but I don't see Pac-Man players writing angry letters on the Nintendo forum demanding that the ghost timers remain the same to prevent casual noobs from receiving the bananas that they did not rightfully earn.

[UnSub]

In other news, I now have to fight the urge to use the Comic Strip Generator in every post.

Damn you if I just haven't found another way to waste hours of my life.

[Valmorian]

Anything learned via pattern recognition and repetition is not a skill?

Didn't say that, although the fact that each particular raid encounter doesn't vary it's not as impressive as the raiders often make it out to be. 

Suppose after many tries you figure out the right path to take in a Choose-your-own-adventure novel.  You then re-read that novel repeatedly, and having memorized which decisions to make you win every time.  Is THAT a skill?

[Valmorian]

Yeah, if only we could have innovative video games where you didn't repeat the same action over and over and over until completion.  Like Starcraft, or Conan, or Mario, or Pong, or Pac Man...

Oh wait.

Not sure what your point is here.  Is it because other games have repetition and scripted encounters in them, that it makes this particular scripted encounter set somehow better?  Pac Man is actually an EXCELLENT example of what raiding is.  At least, the original one is.  If you spent enough time memorizing the set paths you needed to take, it was possible to continually play it.  There was no reacting to something unexpected in it, because once you knew those patterns it was simply a matter of repeating them, verbatim, in that set order.

Now imagine you have a Pac Man machine that had a pattern that was so simple that you could explain it in 10 minutes to a group of 40 people.  Now have all of those people play the game and if enough of them succeed you get to play a new maze where you have to figure out the pattern all over again.

[Merusk]

Yeah, if only we could have innovative video games where you didn't repeat the same action over and over and over until completion.  Like Starcraft, or Conan, or Mario, or Pong, or Pac Man...

Oh wait.

Yeah, but I don't see Pac-Man players writing angry letters on the Nintendo forum demanding that the ghost timers remain the same to prevent casual noobs from receiving the bananas that they did not rightfully earn.

It's ok to laugh at those people. What irritates the shit out of me is the whole premise formed in this thread that if you've ever raided, or raid now you are a catass no lifer who does exactly that.   "Generalizations suck" is usually pointed out quickly, except when touching on endgame MMO stuff for some stupid reason.   Worse still when assumptions are made based completly on lack of experience and are seconded by the peanut gallery.. which AGAIN doesn't pass muster anywhere but on this topic.

The retard blinders are on the forum as a whole about this, and it always irritates me.

Yeah, if only we could have innovative video games where you didn't repeat the same action over and over and over until completion.  Like Starcraft, or Conan, or Mario, or Pong, or Pac Man...

Oh wait.

Not sure what your point is here.  Is it because other games have repetition and scripted encounters in them, that it makes this particular scripted encounter set somehow better?  Pac Man is actually an EXCELLENT example of what raiding is.  At least, the original one is.  If you spent enough time memorizing the set paths you needed to take, it was possible to continually play it.  There was no reacting to something unexpected in it, because once you knew those patterns it was simply a matter of repeating them, verbatim, in that set order.

Now imagine you have a Pac Man machine that had a pattern that was so simple that you could explain it in 10 minutes to a group of 40 people.  Now have all of those people play the game and if enough of them succeed you get to play a new maze where you have to figure out the pattern all over again.

That IS the point.  It differs little from Mario, Pac Man or raiding.  It's a simple memorization of patterns that you repeat.  Yes, you have to learn a new pattern for each board, boss, or 'world' but it's still the same thing.   Yet raiding gets lambasted for it.

Want to bitch about the loot/ reward structure? Fine, fair game, I do it too.  Rarity and forced repetition is lame and stupid.  Locking people out because they don't want to repeat the same fight 10-20 weeks is stupid.  I agree.   Bitching that raiding is stupid because it follows the same principles as every video game, EVER?  Just as retarded.

Saying that only "elite" players deserve rewards because they're somehow better?  Equally stupid shit, don't disagree.  Laugh at Joe Mc Wowismylife all you want, I'll be doing it too.  It doesn't mean his opionion is that of all raiders.  It means he's got emotional/ social problems and is trying to build himself up in a video game.  Really, I tend to pity them more than hate them.

[Valmorian]

Bitching that raiding is stupid because it follows the same principles as every video game, EVER?  Just as retarded.

Well there is ONE rather big difference.  In every other video game, once you've beaten that level/boss, whatever, you're off to new content.  In raids, once you've beaten that boss, then you've just STARTED.  You can't go on to the next content until you've defeated that boss enough times to gear up your raid for the new boss.

It's like space invaders, but worse, because at least every level in space invaders was harder than the last because the speed changed.  In a raid, beat the encounter once and it'll be the same the next time you do it.

The "peanut gallery" is acknowledging that you CAN get 30 mouth breathing idiots together with 10 clued in players and successfully raid.  So far as I can tell from my experiences raiding, that's spot on.

[Merusk]

Like I said, I don't have a problem bitching about the loot structure/ rewards.  It's almost like Diablo farming but even more stupid becuse trash can't drop "phat" loot, EVER.   So it's like ONLY boss farming in Diablo.

The "peanut gallery" is acknowledging that you CAN get 30 mouth breathing idiots together with 10 clued in players and successfully raid.  So far as I can tell from my experiences raiding, that's spot on.

Not the case anymore. Not just because there are no such thing as "40-mans" so the smaller raid size requires a greater percentege of people to be spot on, but the fights are more complex.   If you have 5 competent people but 20 idiots, you're going to fail over and over again.  Hell, one idiot is enough to wipe everyone else in several encounters. 

[amiable]

It's ok to laugh at those people. What irritates the shit out of me is the whole premise formed in this thread that if you've ever raided, or raid now you are a catass no lifer who does exactly that.   "Generalizations suck" is usually pointed out quickly, except when touching on endgame MMO stuff for some stupid reason.   Worse still when assumptions are made based completly on lack of experience and are seconded by the peanut gallery.. which AGAIN doesn't pass muster anywhere but on this topic.

I don't think that is the premise of this thread.  I think the premise of this thrad is that Raider whining about the trivilizaiton of content is hilarious because, the whine itself is proof that the whiner takes raiding far too seriously.

I have raided and I am certainly not a no-lifer, but to say I haven't encountered that type?  Well, I have, and they tend to be the ones whose salty tears streak accross the computer monitor when raiding ceases to be the end-all be-all endeavour of a game.  Folks like that are poisonous to a gaming community (whining raiders, not "people who raid") and need to be excised like an infected boil.

[Kitsune]

For all you Ellsworth Tooheys out there, it doesn't matter whether or not it's a video game, or building skyscrapers, or being a homemaker; the pursuit of excellence is the "thing". Championing "mediocrity" and "the average" and "every man" and "the masses" only makes you mediocre. Further, as you spout it out from the highest mountaintop or wherever you can find an audience, it just sounds like what it is: petty jealousy and "sour grapes" over the inability to achieve what others have.

Is it fair or reasonable to draw such comparisons to "world firsts" in a video game (played by over 10 million people)? I don't know, but it's not so unreasonable to consider such comparisons within this milieu since we're posting on a message board DEVOTED TO THIS GAME!

This is what I love about all of the less-intelligent objectivists out there; their ability to speak as if they're singing the gospel of the universe while being the ones most ignorant of the way the world works.  This poster clearly believes that his excellence and hard work entitle him to his achievements.  This in theory is all fine and dandy, but the reality is that both the excellent and the mediocre are nothing but teensy motes on Blizzard's stock reports.  Being the best WoW player of all time will not get your name known in Blizzard's offices; you will carry no weight with their stockholders.  Excellence and hard work in a video game is less useful than excellence in pissing.

The excellent in WoW may number a hundred thousand; the mediocre number in the millions.  Until the excellent manage to give Blizzard more money each month than the mediocre, the excellent will continue to get the short end of the stick.  They'd best learn to enjoy it.

But hey, all they have to do is cough up a $50/month Legends server with earlier access to content for all of the excellent to move into and everyone'll be happy.

[Ratman_tf]

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

Unfortunately for you, what he's saying is essentially true.  Raiding IS about learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

Well this is similar to most console platformers and smups, where you learn the exact pattern and terrain to beat a level.
It's not like an RTS or 4E where there are usually more variables in play, and you learn to adapt to situations on the fly.

After you learn the basics (jumping, shooting, cooldowns and Not Standing In Fire), it then becomes like learning your multiplication tables. Rote memorization and recitation.

[stray]

Except, the difference is, as I pointed out in my first post, you get rewarded in those games immediately after you figure out the pattern. On to the next level, next cool twist in the story, next wave of interesting baddies with brand new tricks up their sleeves, and next new boss full of completely different patterns.

In an mmo, you figure out the pattern (much more easily, mind you), and then... You get rewarded with playing it over and over again, and over and over again... until everyone and their mom gets their 5 piece and other assorted shit. Then if that succeeds, and people aren't utterly burned out or pissed at each other, you get to move on to the next shitty episode of that.

[WindupAtheist]

WUA's just bored and gone back to trolling.

I just really enjoy the idea that I'm rephrasing and parroting the opinions of others to gain approval, when I was the one to broach the subject and some people just happened to come in and say that they agree with me.

[Tale]

Guys, WUA is just rewording your opinions on raiding and posting them back at you, so you say "yeah, WUA, you're so right!". Please stop helping him masturbate.

Unfortunately for you, what he's saying is essentially true.  Raiding IS about learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

Well this is similar to most console platformers and smups, where you learn the exact pattern and terrain to beat a level.
It's not like an RTS or 4E where there are usually more variables in play, and you learn to adapt to situations on the fly.

After you learn the basics (jumping, shooting, cooldowns and Not Standing In Fire), it then becomes like learning your multiplication tables. Rote memorization and recitation.

Sure, when you fight a boss you've fought before, you know what to expect, but it doesn't flow the same every time. Every guild has times where it messes up a raid it shouldn't, the target does its area-effect ability at an unexpected time, or some other server-side glitch happens. Factors on both sides of a fight can give you something unexpected to solve.

The attitude in this thread has been "that only happens if somebody wasn't paying attention", again reducing it wrongly to a simple equation of win or lose. Skill is about how you recover.

You're forgetting that the rest of the guild performs a goalkeeper function against these errors. Someone puts a foot wrong, but someone makes a nice save and the raid doesn't wipe. That's NOT simple learning and repetition, that's skilful, intelligent, co-operative, variable gameplay.

Try crippling your raid - can you win an encounter with reduced numbers or a really bad combination of classes? That changes the fight and requires you to think outside the square. You force your collective skill into play.

Plus you've glossed over the learning process. Breaking a new zone, learning new bosses. Sometimes it can take forever to get the fight right, sometimes it happens right away, and it comes down to the ability of your members to overcome a challenge.

You're also assuming spoilers are known and there's a strategy to follow. Haven't you ever been in a situation where it's unclear how to win, and you have to figure it out? (e.g. first raids of new expansion, first raids after an encounter is tweaked).

There's far too much focus in this thread on WoW's Burning Crusade. You seem to define "raiding" by how WoW currently defines it. Your shared disdain for raiders all seems to stem from recent threads where Burning Crusade guilds spit the dummy, which I've already said I know nothing about, because I didn't like Burning Crusade's version of raiding so I quit after doing 60-70.

Please take a broader view than just WoW and Burning Crusade. It's ignorant to say raiding in general requires no skill.

Oops, did I just push your buttons again? Are you going to make this automatic assumption that I'm some kind of hardcore uberguild member who thinks raiding makes you internet famous? Because all I'm saying is, it's a simple fact that raiding uses skill, which you guys seem to think implies "ph34r mY 3p1cx l3wtz". I d0n't h43v 4ny.

[Ratman_tf]

Oops, did I just push your buttons again? Are you going to make this automatic assumption that I'm some kind of hardcore uberguild member who thinks raiding makes you internet famous? Because all I'm saying is, it's a simple fact that raiding uses skill, which you guys seem to think implies "ph34r mY 3p1cx l3wtz". I d0n't h43v 4ny.

I'll say that raiding requires a certain skillset. My beef (and it's a small one at that) is that that skillset is not one that I find challenging or "fun".

That's not an absolute statement. I have raided and had fun doing it. But the whole endgame raid paradigm can get rather tiresome and frustrating at times. And it's hardly the last word in "fun" activities in MMOGs.

[lamaros]

You only raid these forums to try and make people admire you Tale.

At least WUA raids them to derive personal pleasure, even it come from being a dickhead.

[lamaros]

I'll say that raiding requires a certain skillset. My beef (and it's a small one at that) is that that skillset is not one that I find challenging or "fun".

So can Pac-man. Where is the hilarious "omg Pac man sucks only the fucking hardcore losers get the high scores" thread? Or the "lol they wiped the high-scores when they moved the Pac-man machine I love seeing you hardcores cry" thread? Or the "lol get a life losers I just play Pac-man every now and then, how it should be played!" thread?

Just stop playing when it's not fun anymore, or make constructive suggestions as to how it can be made more fun. Having a whinge because other people still find it fun when you're over it? Pretty mature.

[tmp]

Unfortunately for you, what he's saying is essentially true.  Raiding IS about learning the scripted encounters and then performing them over and over again.

I'm not sure what's so unfortunate about it, really. Repeated performance of essentially 'scripted encounters' happens often enough in RL in various forms (group dances, group music, synchronized swimming or whatever) and no one really scoffs how these take no skill compared to single person doing similar stuff on their own. Heck, for closer analogy from gaming field you have the Rock Band kind of games where players work literally with the script that tells them what to press and when, and the whole thing hinges on ability of them all to pull that off without screwing up.

Sure, raiding isn't exactly on level of "Black Temple, the Musical" but i don't think the basic raid mechanics deserve derision for what they are. The "skill" in these encounters is the actual ability of whole group to perform with enough synchronization and without errors, that they make it all look easy to the point where casual observer may say "oh they're *just* following the script"

[Tebonas]

Raiding is not as difficult as some of you make it out to be. And if you do a fight the 100th time I don't think too many people have still fun with it. They endure it so their guildmates can have the shiney as well. If an encounter is relegated to the fabled "farm status", thats when the fun stops.

Up to then your analysis is right if you are into that sort of thing.

[lamaros]

Raiding is not as difficult as some of you make it out to be.

Anything can be difficult. Depends what your goals and rescources are.

Walking? Not so hard. Yet it's an Olympic sport that people train very hard for (read: do over and over and over).

And if you do a fight the 100th time I don't think too many people have still fun with it. They endure it so their guildmates can have the shiney as well. If an encounter is relegated to the fabled "farm status", thats when the fun stops.

By your logic going out drinking with your friends is unfun the 100th time you do it also. Or having sex the 100th time in your life? Or ... get the point?

Why don't you just stop trying to tell other people what they do and don't, or should and shouldn't, find fun.

[WindupAtheist]

Because you fucking catasses ruined the genre from 1999 - present, and it's only been Blizzard, and only lately, that has finally begun taking steps to shrug off the legacy of EverQuest and quit turning the keys to the game over to a bunch of unemployed sock-shitting degenerates.

Pink is the new color for WUA taking the piss.  It's not sincere enough to be white, but not opposite enough my viewpoint to be green.  Because, as it says, I like pink.

[Tarami]

By your logic going out drinking with your friends is unfun the 100th time you do it also. Or having sex the 100th time in your life? Or ... get the point?

Why don't you just stop trying to tell other people what they do and don't, or should and shouldn't, find fun.

Nice comparison between a low-stimulation activity and one of our primal instincts. They're really in the same league.

Sure, I will stop, as soon as I believe raiders, in general, do have inherently fun when they raid. The dramafests on official boards point to something else entirely. It's prestige, loot, e-peen, what ever, nobody has ever complained about "raiding isn't fun enough". At a second glance, I do suppose that's what they're all saying, seeing raiding for the sake of it is in no way satisfying enough.

[Tebonas]

By your logic going out drinking with your friends is unfun the 100th time you do it also. Or having sex the 100th time in your life? Or ... get the point?
Why don't you just stop trying to tell other people what they do and don't, or should and shouldn't, find fun.

Are you a fucking imbecile or a crafty Troll? I'm talking about the raid clique that drive the guild forward. I'm talking about people who like raiding. I'm talking about what they say to each other. Its "I'd rather grind my teeth on something new and challenging, but we need more Tier X-1 Pants for the other members of the guild". Its equipping up to meet the new challenges. When the encounter is trivial but you still need loot for your people. When every fight is not fun, but another pull on the loot lever to hope the right thing drops. Because without that gear you would either get slaughtered in that Tier. Or the other people in that raid want their share of the loot as well, and that being a social experience you have to provide to the others the same opportunities you had. And yes, that means giving them a chance at the same loot. At least for a while.

If you think that doesn't happen you never were in any leading position in any raid guild. Do you even know what "farm status" means?

You have to do it more often than you like because you need the equipment for the whole guild. And if you work with loot rarity system and not with tokens you can trade in for (like WoW now does with new content) you can be there an awful lot of time if you are unlucky with the drops. You try to tell me with a straight face you never had to disenchant Druid gear while other more common classes grumbled about it?

[Fordel]

There seems to be a huge 'train of thought' gap with the raiders crying up a storm.


The new 10 man raid dungeons, are not, for them.


They can't wrap their heads around the idea that they won't get everything anymore. Some random poster from that WoW-forums thread:

Alright guys here's my two cents. I've been playing since launch of bc and I've got to say I thoroughly enjoy running both 10-mans AND 25-mans. However, I do like to see different content. Now I'm unclear on how the loot will work and all, but it seems like there will be progression like this: I run the 10-man and get geared to run the 25-man. That realy doesn't do too much for me. I would like to see different content instead of running both the 10-man AND 25-man variant to get geared. IMO, the developers are just being lazy.

Oh no, you'll have to run the same dungeon twice? Welp we better put things back the way they were then, split all the dev resources and lock out the majority of the player base so you can have unique content! This idea of asking for empathy/sympathy to their 'plight' when their desired outcome itself has no sympathy for anyone else BUT themselves?

 

[lamaros]

By your logic going out drinking with your friends is unfun the 100th time you do it also. Or having sex the 100th time in your life? Or ... get the point?
Why don't you just stop trying to tell other people what they do and don't, or should and shouldn't, find fun.

Are you a fucking imbecile or a crafty Troll? I'm talking about the raid clique that drive the guild forward. I'm talking about people who like raiding. I'm talking about what they say to each other. Its "I'd rather grind my teeth on something new and challenging, but we need more Tier X-1 Pants for the other members of the guild". Its equipping up to meet the new challenges. When the encounter is trivial but you still need loot for your people. When every fight is not fun, but another pull on the loot lever to hope the right thing drops. Because without that gear you would either get slaughtered in that Tier. Or the other people in that raid want their share of the loot as well, and that being a social experience you have to provide to the others the same opportunities you had. And yes, that means giving them a chance at the same loot. At least for a while.

If you think that doesn't happen you never were in any leading position in any raid guild. Do you even know what "farm status" means?

You have to do it more often than you like because you need the equipment for the whole guild. And if you work with loot rarity system and not with tokens you can trade in for (like WoW now does with new content) you can be there an awful lot of time if you are unlucky with the drops. You try to tell me with a straight face you never had to disenchant Druid gear while other more common classes grumbled about it?

I was in the most progressed Australian guild for a time. (TBC to just before the big BT patch)

My point is that not all raiders and raiding guilds are the cliches you spout/see on forums. They are not always having drama troubles, or not having fun. Yes there are dramas and there are people not having fun. Yes there are people who seem to be masochists. But they are not allways like that, nor are they all like that.

There are dramas in social casual guilds, and people not having fun when they solo. You seem to pain all raiders and raiding guilds with the same brush and it's a stupid thing to do.

And I thought this was the "imbicile trolling thread"... after all, WUA started it.

[Tebonas]

Your point comes across more like "Because we didn't have the problem no real raiders do".

A tightly knit raid guild with almost no fluctuations and "dead weight" (as top raid guilds are more often than not, after all where do you jump to from the top guild in your timezone) can evade much of that "Lets make a few more loot runs to equip the back benchers/new arrivals as well" pressure.

That doesn't mean it isn't a problem in the "random loot dispersion" system that forces you to participate in content longer than you have fun with it. It just means some guilds are less affected by it.