Spore/Mass Effect Requires A Virgin Sacrifice on Western Coast of Easter Island

[Mosesandstick]

Yep, I'll reply in more depth to Xil's Twins' post later, when I get home from work, but Krakrok has an excellent point. We're either buying the physical game, with media, right of first sale, and the right to do whateverthefuck we want with it. OR we're buying a licence to use that software, and owning or retaining the physical media should not matter.

A quickie before I get more involved later...

I don't know whether it is actually fair to say you ever purchase a game; most games (if practically not all, at least PC ones) required you to go through a EULA to play them. I'm pretty sure all EULAs states that you are merely licensing a game. So you may think you are buying the game but you aren't really  .

[Azazel]

As has been mentioned once or twice, most EULAs aren't worth the paper they're not printed on, and local, national and state laws override them.

My console games don't have an EULA I click on to continue, and a lot of my older PC games don't feature them either.

[Mosesandstick]

I know, I know, it was more a point about how games companies treat their customers.

At some point the legal ass covering needs to end and its ridiculous how far companies will push the boundaries.

[Xerapis]

The first time I ever "pirated" a game was for Sims 2 University.  I bought it in the store, and the CD was defective.  It wouldn't install.  Returned it for another copy of the same game (after a LONG painful discussion with the manager).  Second copy was also defective.  I said "fuck it" and downloaded the damn thing.

I don't remember exactly what game it was the next time that started the ball rolling.  I wanted a game.  I couldn't find it here in Korea.  I tried to buy it online.  The publishers wouldn't ship here.  I couldn't download here, because of my Asian IP.

So I said "Fuck it, I tried to give you assholes my money and you wouldn't take it".  And I got the game for free instead.

Try making the legal method as convenient as the illegal one.  Then you get my money.

[Samwise]

The first time I ever "pirated" a game was for Sims 2 University.  I bought it in the store, and the CD was defective.  It wouldn't install.  Returned it for another copy of the same game (after a LONG painful discussion with the manager).  Second copy was also defective.  I said "fuck it" and downloaded the damn thing.

I don't remember exactly what game it was the next time that started the ball rolling.  I wanted a game.  I couldn't find it here in Korea.  I tried to buy it online.  The publishers wouldn't ship here.  I couldn't download here, because of my Asian IP.

So I said "Fuck it, I tried to give you assholes my money and you wouldn't take it".  And I got the game for free instead.

Try making the legal method as convenient as the illegal one.  Then you get my money.

God damn kids and your sense of entitlement to buy products and use them.  It's a small step from here to killing and raping your schoolteacher.

[Xerapis]

EW!  Almost all of my teachers were women!  Vaginas are disgusting 

Can't I rape and kill (order is important here) some of my classmates in the locker room instead?

[Xilren's Twin]

I have a ton of old games on 3.5" floppys for example; assuming i can get a modern OS to run the old stuff, you generally can't buy pc's with those drives anymore.  Just because i own the old Ultima games on floppies doesnt mean I am entitled to a newer version of that game for free. 

Actually, it should. You bought a license to play the game. The media it's stored on is irrelevant. If the new version was updated or is different than the old version (in the case of music CDs and movie DVDs) then yes a new license is required.

Yep, I'll reply in more depth to Xil's Twins' post later, when I get home from work, but Krakrok has an excellent point. We're either buying the physical game, with media, right of first sale, and the right to do whateverthefuck we want with it. OR we're buying a licence to use that software, and owning or retaining the physical media should not matter.

By and large nowdays, your are buying a limited license to use that software, and we're not just talking games here but commercial software and OS's as well.  Your absolutely correct in that physically having the media doesn't matter (if you buy via download you never even have physical media and can redownload the game more than once anyway), but there seems to be confusion that because i have a box with a cd in hand, my feelings of ownership change.

The reason I brought up the floppy drive isn't because you can't physically get one today (b/c yes, you can with a little effort).  It was simply to try an illustrate the natural progression of technology that will render games unplayable over time.  I still have Apple IIe games on 5.25" floppys; if i don't happen to have a machine that can still run them (which actually i do; like many gamers I'm a packrat about games/systems), and someone hasn't posted that game on an abandonware site and there's not a emulator available, I'm not going to be able to play that game again for free despite me "owning" media that has it, and the company that made it still being in business.  If people can accept that, why is some set number of lifetime installs for a given product setting people's teeth on edge?  Or, more importantly, authentication servers eventually going offline? 

As I said, i think the result of all this is all software will become a service and not a product so the copy protection parts will start going away, but the limited lifespan of the service is here to stay.  Doesn't matter if it's MS sunsetting an old OS, Earth and Beyond shutting down their mmorpg servers, or company X turning off their SP game's authentication servers, it's all the same concept.  When you get a game, you will be paying for access to a service and thus things like idiot DRM and broken dvd's in the mail stop mattering and most piracy issues evaporate (until some cracker hacks the authentication server of course  )

In terms of business not wanted feedback, while i don't doubt that's true for some, speaking from the commercial software side i know we use feedback heavily from current, former and prospective customers.  Sure, we do our own research too, but we get good ideas and suggestions from customers all the time and we'd be idiots to ignore it.  Assuming game companies still want to make money and run as businesses, they'd be crazy to ignore as well.  Course, i think most of the business types running gaming companies don't truly understand their market at all.  There will continue to be market evolution as companies who "get" these kinds of issues do better than the ones that don't, it's just a slow process.

 

[Merusk]

Ever get the feeling folks just plain aren't reading what you type?  Me either.

[Sky]

Ever get the feeling folks just plain aren't reading what you type?  Me either.

Did you just type something about jiggly tits?

[Venkman]

It's not very surprising that no publisher is coming out to say 'illegally downloading our stuff is ok sometimes'.

Blizzard said way back when during Diablo/Diablo2 that they know piracy helps them out. Game companies need to be less incestuous and hire more internet people. Game marketing is a joke. The flash gamers are eating your lunch.

And let's not forget how MS Office became as popular and ubiquitous as it has. It was funny when they tried to restrict it though.

This thread's meandered all over the place. I agree we're renting limited services for all the reasons most recently summarized by Xil. But for the most part, consumers don't like how that feels for games. They seem to gladly accept renting vs owning for movies, but not so much for electronics, books and music. Has to do with consumption vs the equity of owning something you might want to interact with repeatedly.

People here also need to realize how this applies to console games. You don't need a EULA there because a) you're not going to play that game on anything but that console; and, b) the process of copying discs is so laborious as to not matter: and unlike with PCs, that is not going to change anytime soon because it's the console makers that control who own the necessary hardware to make such copies. People gladly accept just how limited an experience they have on consoles and yet cry when someone puts an extra icon in their task bar. This is a much more important double standard than some of the silly hyperbole analogies cited.

But I said that on page 4 too, and expect it to be just as ignored here again 

[ajax34i]

People gladly accept just how limited an experience they have on consoles and yet cry when someone puts an extra icon in their task bar.

Not the same people.

[Ratman_tf]

This thread's meandered all over the place. I agree we're renting limited services for all the reasons most recently summarized by Xil. But for the most part, consumers don't like how that feels for games. They seem to gladly accept renting vs owning for movies, but not so much for electronics, books and music. Has to do with consumption vs the equity of owning something you might want to interact with repeatedly.

I'm sure it's still out there with Netflix and all that groovy jazz, but man, I haven't rented anything in like a decade I think. At 10 bucks a pop for discount movies, and 15-19 bucks for newer ones, it's easier to just buy it. That way I don't have to remember to return the damn thing.

[Merusk]

This thread's meandered all over the place. I agree we're renting limited services for all the reasons most recently summarized by Xil. But for the most part, consumers don't like how that feels for games. They seem to gladly accept renting vs owning for movies, but not so much for electronics, books and music. Has to do with consumption vs the equity of owning something you might want to interact with repeatedly.

I don't pay $50-$70 to rent movies.  The proposal is that I do so for games.  THAT is what consumers don't like, not how it "feels" to rent vs own.

[Azazel]

Besides, i think this very thread demonstrates the opposite of "people will simply move on to generic fps #2, or #3" because that's not what's happening.  People are talking about individual games like Spore and Bioshock and are stating they will pirate the game in the face of copy protection just to get that specific one.  If people really did just say "hmm, Bioshock has DRM, no thanks" and moved on to purchase another game we wouldnt be having this discussion at all.

Speaking for myself, I brought up Bioshock earlier in this thread primarily because of the limited-install bullshit DRM they applied to the game. Which is the reason I never did get around to buying it, though I have purchased a number of other FPSs.

It's supposed to be a decent game though, so yeah, I would like to buy it. I tend to buy all of the best/most decent games in genres I like. Eventually.

Starforce though = no buy no way.


Oh, give me the correct email address to post an email to EA regarding Spore and ME, and I will give them feedback. I'm not fucking spending hours combing through their websites for the right email address, though.

[Azazel]

This thread's meandered all over the place. I agree we're renting limited services for all the reasons most recently summarized by Xil. But for the most part, consumers don't like how that feels for games. They seem to gladly accept renting vs owning for movies, but not so much for electronics, books and music. Has to do with consumption vs the equity of owning something you might want to interact with repeatedly.

People here also need to realize how this applies to console games. You don't need a EULA there because a) you're not going to play that game on anything but that console; and, b) the process of copying discs is so laborious as to not matter: and unlike with PCs, that is not going to change anytime soon because it's the console makers that control who own the necessary hardware to make such copies. People gladly accept just how limited an experience they have on consoles and yet cry when someone puts an extra icon in their task bar. This is a much more important double standard than some of the silly hyperbole analogies cited.

But I said that on page 4 too, and expect it to be just as ignored here again 

That's because your examples are shit. Utter, dire, non-sense-making horseshit.
In fairness, I don't recall any post of yours on page 4 being this retarded though, and I can't be fucked going and looking for it.

I'm not sure what you're even trying to say here. I "rent" movies from the video library, and take them back the enxt night or whatever. When I go to a department store and buy a game and a movie DVD and a music CD, I'm not "renting" the movie or the music disc for a limited number of interactions with a limited number of playback devices. I'm buying that fucker.

When I go to the video library and also rent a console or PC game, along with my rented movie, that's renting.

When I buy a console game, yeah I am indeed going to be able to play that game on "anything but that console". I have 2 seperate PS2s. I have 2 seperate Xboxes. And a 360. I can play an Xbox game on all three, and then loan it to a friend before selling it. I can do the exact same thing with the copy of Crysis (with PCs instead of XBoxes), even though it features an EULA.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Oh, as for the difficulty in pirating games, the 360 can be soft-modded in software or switchable. Not sure about how they get the software, but with a HDD involved I'm sure it's about as difficult as on the regular XBox. (XBMC + Network or XBMC + Rip directly), PS2 is laughably easy once chipped. Easier in fact than burning a PC game. I know 10 year old special school kids who go to who can copy their own PS2 software. So, um. Not difficult.

The last point, regarding the taskbar is a strawman. Fail.

[Venkman]

I don't pay $50-$70 to rent movies.  The proposal is that I do so for games.  THAT is what consumers don't like, not how it "feels" to rent vs own.

I'm not sure the price difference matters that much personally. People buy casual games for $19.99, but not all of the aggregators provide a total unlock. Suppose the DRM check fails because the system goes down?

I think this all still comes down to perception. You'd like to think you're buying something. Why shouldn't you? It's a packaged good that doesn't technically need a call-home DRM check.

Meanwhile, they'd like to think you're renting a service from them. So that they can constantly ping you and send MIB if you do something wrong.

That disconnect between business need and consumer perception is what I think is at the heart of the problem.

[Tebonas]

You say business need like it is a given. Thats a shift in the power structure between buyer and seller. A shift that has to be accepted to take hold. So "fuck them" and "they can stick those games where the sun doesn't shine" IS a viable option. And we as customers deserve everything we get (or don't get anymore) if we accept rights the companies already gave us in the past taken away without recompensation.

Or simply put. If you are ready to pay the same money for less, you are a fucking moron and deserve it.

[Moosehands]

So is this thread 8 pages because none of you knew what a BBS was in 1988, when it wasn't a 20 year old argument?

[schild]

I ran a pirated Worldgroup MBBS with MajorMud and Telearena back in the early 90s and got my parents to pony up for some incoming phone lines and some modems in my spare box so my friends and I could play the games to death.

It was pretty great.

[Venkman]

You say business need like it is a given.

Well, the business need is a given. But to Margalis' and others points, the business need may need be redesigning. They're certainly treating the customers in such a way as to make that a foregone conclusion...

Unfortunately, this won't be a clean transition because nobody's got the magic bullet and nobody else is willing to say to upper management that a $50mil investment isn't worth protecting (in that special land of speech-by-bulletpoint).

[Tebonas]

Except when people actually do what they preach and don't buy games with those ridiculous installation limits. Because then they are not protecting that 50 million dollar investment, they are hurting it.

Businesses do what they can get away with. The bending over and taking it with a smile on your face is what irritates me in this thread.

[Krakrok]

So is this thread 8 pages because none of you knew what a BBS was in 1988, when it wasn't a 20 year old argument?

Oh hai guys lets all wave our nerd BBS e-peens around! 

I had an 8 line TriBBS with a Doom server that did IPX tunneling.

[Tebonas]

I was 14 20 years ago. Gimme a break, all my parents allowed me was Fidonet.

[schild]

So is this thread 8 pages because none of you knew what a BBS was in 1988, when it wasn't a 20 year old argument?

Oh hai guys lets all wave our nerd BBS e-peens around! 

I had an 8 line TriBBS with a Doom server that did IPX tunneling.

I was like 8 or 10 years old when I did mine.

WERE YOU 8-10 WHEN YOU RAN THAT, MR. EPEEN?

This thread got boring 4 pages back.

[Moosehands]

Oh hai guys lets all wave our nerd BBS e-peens around! 

20 year old argument, man.

All things considered, I'd rather wave my dick around in public.

[Tebonas]

Repeating it doesn't make it more true.

I still can play my games from 20 years ago with the hardware from those times (or suitable emulation). So how is this the same argument?

[Moosehands]

Because the stances have not changed; only the complexity of technology and availability of reproduction and distribution methods.  Seriously, not a single word in the last 8 pages has expressed a new sentiment on either side.  You're repeating near verbatim arguments from Usenet in the late 80s.  The invention of subscription models, digital authorization, and digital content delivery have done absolutely nothing to reframe the argument on one side that entertainment is a commercial product or on the other side that people will damn well entertain themselves with only convenience and cost modifying their behavior.

Playing on old hardware and emulation are not the same thing at all.  In 20 years, if the auth servers still exist, you can still play.  If 20 year old hardware didn't exist right now, you wouldn't be able to play.  Emulation is reproduction of proprietary products.  It ain't stealing, but it's just as much pirating as copying the game.  Not to mention that a whole bunch of abandoware and ROMs and such also have been cracked so they can be distributed in addition to the OS/Hardware being cracked for it to run.

Pirates tend to grow older, gain increasing disposable income, and redefine what convenience means.  This leads to their pirate-to-purchase ratio going down, generally.  Entertainment companies tend to grow bigger, develop more complex/powerful technologies, and redefine what a profitable project is.  This leads to their content delivery systems changing (MMOs, consoles, etc) and their interest in revenue protection increasing.  Neither side's behavior is significantly affected by the arguments of the other side, regardless of what a few rhetorical Don Quixotes claim.

And now I've contributed another few paragraphs to the one of the Great Internet Debates (along with Mac vs. PC and WWII).  Pissing in the wind.

[Tebonas]

It doesn't matter if I can buy 20 year old hardware right now, because I did 20 years ago (ok, my parents did but whatever), I can get it out of the attic and play away. The only thing hindering me from playing really old PC games on a current computer is the fact that I didn't bother to put a 5 1/4" drive into it. Plus the idea that emulation is pirating is ridiculous. Reverse engineering is not illegal, and programming a free Dos clone like dosbox is perfectly valid. I'm talking about one thing, you about a completely different one.

The fact that you don't even want to talk about it but feel the need to do so between your whines that you shouldn't is just icing on the cake.

Oh and yes, the online validation every 10 days (thread title, lest we forgot) is gone. So no side is influenced by the other my ass...

[Krakrok]

Pissing in the wind.

I disagree. Ideas spread virally. You have no idea how many people may have been affected by the ideas expressed in this thread.

[Venkman]

Oh and yes, the online validation every 10 days (thread title, lest we forgot) is gone

You have no idea how many people may have been affected by the ideas expressed in this thread.

One was 

[schild]

There, I fixed the thread title.

[Venkman]

Yea, but at least we get frequent flyer miles for that.

[Aez]

Can we den this shit fest already?

[rk47]

[Aez]

So deleted before anyone sees it!