Darkfall "Released"

[Rasix]

Can you attack my economy while I sit in high security space?

Don't ask people questions (even rhetorical) about EVE.  They'll answer. 

AH playing in WoW can also be considered PvP under the same criteria, no? The end result is used for PvE or useless money sinks rather than financing ships and territorial expansion, but the principle of market manipulation is the same.

If WoW head anywhere near as robust and diverse a crafting system, reliance on player crafted goods, item loss/deterioration, and local markets, then sure.

You don't get to equivocate.  He got you. 

When you keep applying "PVP" to different types of non-direct player confrontation, you'll start veering off into ridiculous stretch scenarios.  Pretty soon you end up with big shoulder pads and some guy calling me a "fag" in trade chat as PVP.

[Stabs]

While undercutting someone by 0.01 isk isn't really pvp I think economic pvp is possible. If you managed to buy out all of the jump fuel and then only supply it to your side while strangling the enemy's supply of it that would be pvp.

Eve of course doesn't really allow for this because just about everything can be accessed by everyone (with the exception of pirate loyalty rewards).

[tmp]

AH playing in WoW can also be considered PvP under the same criteria, no? The end result is used for PvE or useless money sinks rather than financing ships and territorial expansion, but the principle of market manipulation is the same.

Isn't AH play in WoW pretty much handled by automated UI mods, though?

[Shatter]

AH playing in WoW can also be considered PvP under the same criteria, no? The end result is used for PvE or useless money sinks rather than financing ships and territorial expansion, but the principle of market manipulation is the same.

Isn't AH play in WoW pretty much handled by automated UI mods, though?

Doesnt that apply to almost every part of WOW? 

[Malakili]

You don't get to equivocate.  He got you. 

When you keep applying "PVP" to different types of non-direct player confrontation, you'll start veering off into ridiculous stretch scenarios.  Pretty soon you end up with big shoulder pads and some guy calling me a "fag" in trade chat as PVP.

I think there's a pretty clearly defined difference between EVE trading, WoW auctionhousing, and calling someone a fag in chat.  If you want to play a semantic game go ahead, but I'm not interested in joining you.

[UnSub]

Economic PvP is certainly possible in a lot of MMOs; however, most MMOs have extremely broken economic systems. EvE, who has that dedicated economist working on the game, has probably the most viable and balanced form of economic PvP since it also has the economy as a core part of the game.

[Shatter]

Aion is one of the first MMO's where Ive played the broker to make money.  People often dont realize that armor, weapons, etc are often worth more on the vendor then what they auction them for.  That or they severely sell crafting mats for way below standard value.  The easiest way to make money in Aion is when dbl xp weekends come and the broker gets flooded with stuff for sale which pushes prices down, buy stuff that weekend and resell it for "normal" prices mid week.  chaching!

[Tuncal]

AH playing in WoW can also be considered PvP under the same criteria, no? The end result is used for PvE or useless money sinks rather than financing ships and territorial expansion, but the principle of market manipulation is the same.

Isn't AH play in WoW pretty much handled by automated UI mods, though?

Mods definitely streamline and help a lot (and mostly automate hundreds of identical transactions), but the ultimate decision rests with the mod user. I'm not trying to say WoW has the same economic complexity level, which it clearly hasn't. I'm just pointing out the fact that the underlying principle of market manipulation is the same, and not what I'd call PvP - just Trader vs Trader, heh. The fact that it's used to fuel PvP is a secondary effect - after all, how many corporation vs corporation wars have you witnessed done primarily via trading?


My point, I guess, is that I personally wouldn't consider Eve a PvP MMO. I would classify it as an excellent blend of PvE and PvP activities, most carefully designed to aim you towards unrestricted PvP. However it is not contained to said unrestricted PvP and therefore cannot be used as a successful example of a pure PvP MMO. Makes a great example of an end-game PvP oriented MMO, though, if that makes sense.

[Malakili]

My point, I guess, is that I personally wouldn't consider Eve a PvP MMO. I would classify it as an excellent blend of PvE and PvP activities, most carefully designed to aim you towards unrestricted PvP. However it is not contained to said unrestricted PvP and therefore cannot be used as a successful example of a pure PvP MMO. Makes a great example of an end-game PvP oriented MMO, though, if that makes sense.

Now we are just arguing over what exactly "PvP" means, and that is really besides the point.  I don't have any stake in what is "PvP" and what isn't.  We could call EVE a "Massively Multiplayer Game in which thousands of people directly and indirectly influence themselves, the game world and other players through both combative and non combative competition"  (aka MMGiwToPDaIITTGWaOPtBCaNCC")

 The point being, whether or not you consider actually combat to be the only true "PvP" isn't what I mean when I say PvP MMO, I think "Player Driven" is probably a much closer approximation to what a lot of us (I don't presume to speak for everyone, but I think I do at least speak for some subsection of this debate on this particular issue) mean.   I think about it more like the real world:  If someone goes up and buys all the X out of the local store, no one else is going to be able to buy any X.  Is that "person v person" behavior?  Its just an "emergent" property of a world with limited resources that people want.

[Threash]

Aion is one of the first MMO's where Ive played the broker to make money.  People often dont realize that armor, weapons, etc are often worth more on the vendor then what they auction them for.  That or they severely sell crafting mats for way below standard value.  The easiest way to make money in Aion is when dbl xp weekends come and the broker gets flooded with stuff for sale which pushes prices down, buy stuff that weekend and resell it for "normal" prices mid week.  chaching!

Hah for me it's the other way around.  When double exp weekend comes potion prices go through the roof, i save up mats for two weeks and make a killing during those two days selling.

[Malakili]

So, Darkfall has a free trial now.  So, nows finally the time to get your lulz in.  http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=248123

[Mrbloodworth]

oh really?

The free trial offer is limited to one trial per computer.

I'm not sure I want to install whatever will enforce that.

[Cadaverine]

I'm pretty sure it's self enforcing.  Once you install it once, and try it, you never want to install it again.

[Nebu]

Free trial?  Me thinks the wolves are running short on sheep. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Why enforce one install per machine though, isn't this a account based game?

[Malakili]

Why enforce one install per machine though, isn't this a account based game?

To discourage using free trial accounts as spies/scouts/whatever meta game thingy you can imagine from the main playerbase rather than being used as...trials?  I have no idea if thats the real justification, its one I just made up.

[Soln]

welp, I guess those trees aren't going to attack themselves

[patience]

I was interested in seeing how the game developed now that has the trial and I wanted to see how much they lived up to their aspirations of making newbie friendly but the forums aren't encouraging so far 

A good friend of mine is probably going to join me in playing this game this summer,....
...I thought i might make a new char on a new account and shelf this toon for a while, just so i can start out fresh with him and we can both face this world together and figure out our own way of surviving and growing without the backing of pre-built characters or a strong alliance....
...I wanted to know what everybody else thought of this idea -- could this be fun? Or will it be super demoralizing and should i just try and guide him into this game with a character that can already defend itself?

I can't see why anyone would ever reroll a toon in this game. You're either bat shit crazy or you plan on using player auction.

'd say, stay on your toon and show him the good parts of the game. Take him PvPing and make him contribute, get him some fat lewt and stuff. Its all about the lewt

[Chinchilla]

I was interested in seeing how the game developed now that has the trial and I wanted to see how much they lived up to their aspirations of making newbie friendly but the forums aren't encouraging so far 

A good friend of mine is probably going to join me in playing this game this summer,....
...I thought i might make a new char on a new account and shelf this toon for a while, just so i can start out fresh with him and we can both face this world together and figure out our own way of surviving and growing without the backing of pre-built characters or a strong alliance....
...I wanted to know what everybody else thought of this idea -- could this be fun? Or will it be super demoralizing and should i just try and guide him into this game with a character that can already defend itself?

I can't see why anyone would ever reroll a toon in this game. You're either bat shit crazy or you plan on using player auction.

'd say, stay on your toon and show him the good parts of the game. Take him PvPing and make him contribute, get him some fat lewt and stuff. Its all about the lewt

I'd ignore those ppl and just try it out yourself.  Screw what ppl think since we all know that more than 85% of the intarweb d00dz out there are morons.

[Cheddar]

I'd ignore those ppl and just try it out yourself.  Screw what ppl think since we all know that more than 85% of the intarweb d00dz out there are morons.

Don't.  Worst 180 seconds of your life.  Actually, 300.  The entire interface is going to piss you off into running around, then you will die. 

[Chinchilla]

Anyone playing this game?  How does it play now after all the patches?  I'm just looking for something to play while I wait for my new PC in about ~2 months.  Can't do APB at the moment so looking for a fun RPG MMO for now.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I play this, it's a very solid game if you want a MMO RPG/FPS and a really challenging game too.

The core mechanics of the game are really shaping up, decent game balance, sophisticated & fun physic engine, very little latency or client stability problems (especially with windows 7). Beautifuly designed gameworld (easily the most interesting I've ever seen in a MMO, lots of excellent artistic detail work). Adventurine is planning on releasing a couple of large free expansions over the next 4-5 months, one in a month or so that includes a major graphical and sound update, and one around the new year with a ton of other content.

For the challenge part it has a very steep player skill curve, combat being fully twitch based, no automations, everyone is a "hybrid" that utilizes magic, archery and melee (you dont need offensive magic but you still need some utility magic like heals) so fights are very fluid & dynamic. There is a lot of timing, maneuvering and other experience based tricks, even if you are a pretty skilled at video games and were given a maxed out character it would be months before you could challenge some of the best players in small scale combat. Newbies won't be competing against vets 1 vs 1 for a while, but they can be pretty useful in larger scale PvP right away if they focus on getting archery (which raises quickly) and heal other magic (the best heal other in game doesn't take long to get if you focus on it), they can make significant contributions in support fire and healing.

The other challenge part if you are up for it is the unrestricted combat and looting nature of the game. Having to constantly watch your back, listen closely to sound, a little constant fear adds lots excitement. Getting killed and looted can suck true, and is demoralizing on a bad night where it happens 2-3 times, but the important thing to remember is until you are a vet your basic gear is basically crap anyways and little loss (as I explain further down, your clan will be happy to hook up a newbie with plenty of decent gear). Overall though, there is an amazing andreline rush in darkfall PvP because it is so signifcant (your gear on the line) and intense, sometimes I forget to breath! This is something I don't get from normal video games, only in competitive action game leagues during clutch moments. Add to that a pretty serious layer of politics at both the personal and clan level.

Starting as a newbie is not a constant beat down as you might think or hear from some of the anti-PvP reactionairies around here. Yes there are some griefers, as in any game, but they are relatively few in number (altho their impact can be outsized on their targets) and are frowned upon and hunted down whenever they come out of their spider holes. You'll find many more helpful people than trouble makers. If you are worried about this  I would recommend an Ork character (or a wolfman and move him to Ork land). Ork lands are less popular and have a bit more of a steady anti-PK presence.

I would join a clan as soon as you get your bearings, clans will be more helpful in giving you advice than public chats, give you access and will dump a lot of medium quality gear on newbies (stuff that would be out of your budget range for a month or two but chump change to vets). Just be a bit discerning and find an established clan that accepts newbies (there's plenty), not a fly by night scrubby one that's more likely to have bad reputations with leadership, these ones are usually bigtime spam recruiting and suck in a lot of newbies.

Darkfall is not for everyone, it is like a normal MMO set to "very hard" difficulty mode. cope. If you are interested in a very challenging (rewarding), and now somewhat polished MMORPG-FPS 18 months post-release, and looking for something beyond the WoW mould of ding level up and watching counters during autocombat, Darkfall is worth checking out.

PS I see some complaints about the interface on this page, AV announced they will have it completely re-done for one of the upcoming expansions.

[Nebu]

Darkfall is not for everyone, it is like a normal MMO set to "very hard" difficulty mode. cope. If you are interested in a very challenging (rewarding), and now somewhat polished MMORPG-FPS 18 months post-release, and looking for something beyond the WoW mould of ding level up and watching counters during autocombat, Darkfall is worth checking out.

I'm going to call bullshit here.  

1) How is this game "very hard" difficulty?  If you mean adjusting to the shitty interface, then I can give you a little. WoW has as steep a learning curve as I've seen in an MMO if you really want to play the game at its full potential.  Don't believe me?  Check out the theory crafting on Elitest jerks. 

2) The only reward in a game is fun.  If you find it fun, then you win.  Beyond that, games offer no reward unless your life is so empty that it somehow validates you.  

I've played just about every pvp MMO released to date and found Darkfall to be a flawed mess.  If the game being a hindrance to itself is hard-mode, then you can have it.

[Shatter]

I think I'll pass on a game where being ganked and stripped of gear is basically a right of passage to the point that you are forced to move characters to less active zones and rely on a guild to give you shit everytime it happens(2-3 times a night) spending months in this environment until you reach some kind of less-newb status. 

[Speedy Cerviche]

I'm going to call bullshit here.  

1) How is this game "very hard" difficulty?  If you mean adjusting to the shitty interface, then I can give you a little. WoW has as steep a learning curve as I've seen in an MMO if you really want to play the game at its full potential.  Don't believe me?  Check out the theory crafting on Elitest jerks.  

The interface is mediocre but everything is adjustable, you just have to customize it to your liking. If you never even bothered to fix your controls then you don't sound very qualified to be reviewing the game.

I said it was hard cuz there is a steep learning curve for PvP, lots of tricks, knowledge, experience and ability to adjust on the fly given the moves of your opponents, this is both of the level of personal fights and strategic fights. Just 2 days ago my clan was helping our allies defend a hamlet, the battle lasted 2 hours with 2 major engagements and a lot of tactical maneuvering for advantages in positioning while the siege timers played out. I call this a rewarding and unique gaming experience you wont find in a typical MMORPG, pitting your wits against other players in a highly action & twitch based game.

[Nebu]

Here's my point: A truly hardcore pvp fan wants two things

1) A level playing field where skill is the factor determining outcome.

2) Limited PvE influence on outcome determination. 

It takes a pretty serious investment in Darkfall and a clan before both are realized.

I said it was hard cuz there is a steep learning curve for PvP, lots of tricks, knowledge, experience and ability to adjust on the fly given the moves of your opponents, this is both of the level of personal fights and strategic fights. Just 2 days ago my clan was helping our allies defend a hamlet, the battle lasted 2 hours with 2 major engagements and a lot of tactical maneuvering for advantages in positioning while the siege timers played out. I call this a rewarding and unique gaming experience you wont find in a typical MMORPG, pitting your wits against other players in a highly action & twitch based game.

I'm going to guess that you never played pre-Trammel UO, Shadowbane, DAoC, Aion, Lineage, WAR, Planetside, EvE, or any of a host of other MMO's with a pvp component.  Darkfall doesn't really offer anything that hasn't already been done better in other titles. 

I'm glad that you are enjoying the game.  I'm guessing it's either that you're new to the experience or you have a good group of clan mates to play it with.  Both factors will help the appeal of Darkfall greatly.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I think I'll pass on a game where being ganked and stripped of gear is basically a right of passage to the point that you are forced to move characters to less active zones and rely on a guild to give you shit everytime it happens(2-3 times a night) spending months in this environment until you reach some kind of less-newb status. 

If you sit on a highway you can't complain when you are run over.

Dispersing yourself into a less populated and more remote area to train, away from areas considered hot spots, and accepting the ready and willing help of clans in an extremely clan focused game, is hardly a flaw. You can easily be making significant PvP contributions to a clan in a few weeks if you focus on archery and healing.

Darkfall is a game of street smarts and cunning, you have to approach it a bit differently than a WoW clone. You are not coddled and protected everywhere, there are genuine bad areas where you will be making your life a lot more difficult by being in, but there are a lot of ways to make things smoother for yourself as a newbie (and as a vet) if you play smart and are willing to move around a bit. You have to do it by your own initiative tho, it's not a ride's rail pushing you around.

[Shatter]

Isnt Darkfall the game that implemented some buff that allowed new players to walk around and not get ganked so they could learn new areas, etc since it was basically impossible to do without becoming everyones bitch?

[Nebu]

Darkfall is a game of street smarts and cunning, you have to approach it a bit differently than a WoW clone. You are not coddled and protected everywhere, there are genuine bad areas where you will be making your life a lot more difficult by being in, but there are a lot of ways to make things smoother for yourself as a newbie (and as a vet) if you play smart and are willing to move around a bit. You have to do it by your own initiative tho, it's not a ride's rail pushing you around.

Darkfall is your typical pvp MMO faire.  It's a group of people using their invested time in the game to prey on lower level toons that are obviously weaker while simultaneously proclaiming that it makes them hardcore in the process.  Levels in a pvp game is an idiotic concept and only provides sheep for shitty players with a lot of time to prey upon.  

A truly hardcore pvp game would abolish the level = power paradigm, the gear = power paradigm, and instead focus on giving players versatility to determine creative ways to win.  Darkfall fails along these lines unless you're willing to grind to the endgame where things slowly begin to equalize.  DAoC began to realize this at the release of the classic servers where you could level to the endgame and become competitively equipped within about 24h of play time.  Unfortunately the still screwed up by implementing IWIN buttons with realm abilities and RR5 skills.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Here's my point: A truly hardcore pvp fan wants two things

1) A level playing field where skill is the factor determining outcome.

2) Limited PvE influence on outcome determination.  

It takes a pretty serious investment in Darkfall and a clan before both are realized.

Depends on a lot of things, like if you feel like you need to be able to beat the best & most hardcore players 1 v 1? If you can accept the RPG part where not everyone is equal you don't need to be super hardcore. The game was not completely designed around 1 v 1 anyways (tho the 1 v 1 combat is very good, between two equal opponents a duel can last 10 minutes, or it can last 30 seconds, highly variable), in group PvP the character stats threshold to contribute is even lower, group tactics, discipline and coordination generally trump combined character stats unless there is a serious mismatch. I don't play too much btw, maybe 20 hours a week, and am quite content with a decent & decently wealth, but not maxed character.

I'm going to guess that you never played pre-Trammel UO, Shadowbane, DAoC, Aion, Lineage, WAR, Planetside, EvE, or any of a host of other MMO's with a pvp component.  Darkfall doesn't really offer anything that hasn't already been done better in other titles.  

I'm glad that you are enjoying the game.  I'm guessing it's either that you're new to the experience or you have a good group of clan mates to play it with.  Both factors will help the appeal of Darkfall greatly.

I was a perma-red pre-trammel UO (and played on Siege Perilous server after), played SB beta and maybe 2-3 years total, and dabbled in those others. They've all had decent PvP I agree, I am also an action game fan and what is unique about DF (besides planetside) is that there is no auto targetting, it's all pure aim. The physics engine is also a lot of fun, almost tribes-esque. This is why I call Darkfall a MMORPG-FPS, which makes it quite unique from the the games you listed. So not new at all, and I found my clan in Darkfall (a very enjoyable one), and it was formed in Darkfall, not an old trans-MMO clan. I agree that a good clan is a huge factor in enjoyment of the game.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Isnt Darkfall the game that implemented some buff that allowed new players to walk around and not get ganked so they could learn new areas, etc since it was basically impossible to do without becoming everyones bitch?

Yeah 24 hours, time counted as you are logged in, so it should last you a week. Gives you time to figure out basics, maybe find a clan, while in a safe bubble.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Darkfall is your typical pvp MMO faire.  It's a group of people using their invested time in the game to prey on lower level toons that are obviously weaker while simultaneously proclaiming that it makes them hardcore in the process.  Levels in a pvp game is an idiotic concept and only provides sheep for shitty players with a lot of time to prey upon.  

A truly hardcore pvp game would abolish the level = power paradigm, the gear = power paradigm, and instead focus on giving players versatility to determine creative ways to win.  Darkfall fails along these lines unless you're willing to grind to the endgame where things slowly begin to equalize.  DAoC began to realize this at the release of the classic servers where you could level to the endgame and become competitively equipped within about 24h of play time.  Unfortunately the still screwed up by implementing IWIN buttons with realm abilities and RR5 skills.

I agree that DF could use some boosts to skill gain speed, it's too slow. If you polled most players they would agree.

AV has been taking some baby steps in this direction, a few months ago skill gain was boosted in PvE (doubled and trippled in most cases), also in the last patch the hit point curve was adjusted so you gain quite a bit faster at low level. There's also been talk of an EVE like system where you train skills while AFK/logged out.

Anyways like I said, you have to take into account this is still a RPG, you can make significant contributions in PvP in a few weeks as long as you are willing to accept more of a support role (archery, healing, scouting & other intelligence roles). If you can be content with that, while your character gets stronger, you will find the game very enjoyable.

[Shatter]

Point is Darkfall takes too long to reach some form of balanced pvp and most people wont wade through the mud to reach that.  This is a problem in many MMO's with PvP, Aion included which is what I play. 

[Rendakor]

I think I'll pass on a game where being ganked and stripped of gear is basically a right of passage to the point that you are forced to move characters to less active zones and rely on a guild to give you shit everytime it happens(2-3 times a night) spending months in this environment until you reach some kind of less-newb status. 

This is one of the reasons why I couldn't get into Eve.

[Chinchilla]

I'm gonna try and get another trial account before I commit to it. I did have 1 trial but school got nuts and I didn't get to play as much as I liked. Gonna see if I can install it one more time. Last time I really enjoyed it. Is crafting worth a damn in the game or is it mostly dropped (or no-drop) shit being the best?