A new golden age for RPGs?

[Riggswolfe]

1) Walk up to where a big bad fight is about to happen.
2) Quicksave.
3) Begin fight.
4) Failed saving throw!  Party wiped out.  Quickload
5) Repeat steps 3-4 until battle is successful.
6) Progress plotline.

I can only think of one or two major battles that went that way. Most battles went fairly easy for me. Probably had to do with my party mix or something.

.  Of course, the original storyline scenario that comes bundled with the game sucks.    However, the first expansion kicked so much ass that when I finished it a few times through I still had enough inertia to go back and complete the original storyline.

Surely you're not talking about Shadows of Urentide? That expansion sucked. Hard. Hordes of the Underdark was pretty cool OTOH. Especially since you get to reunite with some of the NPCs from the first campaign.

[Paelos]

Is there one where I can sell shit to people for a decent price instead of whatever the bastard shopowners keep in their mattress? Hocking my finds was one of the most annoying things I dealt with outside of normal combat.

[Riggswolfe]

Is there one where I can sell shit to people for a decent price instead of whatever the bastard shopowners keep in their mattress? Hocking my finds was one of the most annoying things I dealt with outside of normal combat.

Yep. In one of my house mods (gives me a little villa in Caldera) the made carries a few million gold so I can sell my loot to her. There is actually supposed to be a mini-quest that explains who the maid is and where she gets all her money. There are also other mods that give random merchants alot more money or put one or two megarich merchants around the gameworld.

[sidereal]

and will soon start a "premium modules" service where they sell modules made by the Bioware team online (sort of like how Guild Wars will be doing things).

Didn't they already try this with Witch's Wake (good mod, good plot) and it petered out after one episode?

[Riggswolfe]

[
Didn't they already try this with Witch's Wake (good mod, good plot) and it petered out after one episode?

It didn't peter out. It was a hugely popular module. Problem is the guy who did most of the work on it left Bioware.

[geldonyetich]

I can only think of one or two major battles that went that way. Most battles went fairly easy for me. Probably had to do with my party mix or something.

Maybe your party was better decked out than mine, but that was how it happened to me during any major confontation.

Surely you're not talking about Shadows of Urentide? That expansion sucked. Hard.

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

I bought Hoardes of the Underdark.  Once of these days I plan to make the time to play it, but I was disappointed to discover it didn't have multiplayer support.   There's work arounds but those are PITAs.

[Murgos]

All this talk of the 'great' rpgs and no mention of the Ultima's?  Odd.

I've played A LOT of RPG's (pretty much every one named in this thread so far) both on PC and Console but I have to give the nod to PC's as fitting my personal playstyle a bit better.  The console RPG's generally strike me as too 'fluffy' (and waaaaay too repetative, I'm looking at you Final Fantasy) to get much of a reaction out of me anymore.

[Riggswolfe]

I have to agree that PC RPGs are usually more satisfying. Do you know, I have never ever played a single Ultima game other than UO? Wait...I think I did play a console port of one of the Ultimas on my NES. I wonder if there is like a mega pack out there somewhere....

[geldonyetich]

Console RPGs vary quite a bit, but truly there are a lot of Final fantasy-Esque ones out there.

Then you run into gems like Wizardry: Tales Of The Forgotten Land or Disgaea - Hour Of Darkness (which you might argue is more of a strategy game) that show that there's more to console RPGs than Final Fantasy imitation.   Heck, even Squaresoft themselves (now known as Square-Enix) came up with some interesting deviations from the standard Final Fantasy-esque game mechanic, such as The Secret Of Mana/Sword Of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, and Parasite Eve.

[Riggswolfe]

Maybe your party was better decked out than mine, but that was how it happened to me during any major confontation.

Well, honestly, I am thinking of the last time I played, last fall, so I did go in with some knowledge of what was coming so probably had my party better prepared than I did the first time I played through.

I guess it's a matter of opinion.

I bought Hoardes of the Underdark.  Once of these days I plan to make the time to play it, but I was disappointed to discover it didn't have multiplayer support.   There's work arounds but those are PITAs.

I didn't like the NPCs in Shadows of Urentide. I also found the last bit where you had to go get the three whatsits to be highly annoying. The final fight was quite satisfying though.

Hordes of the Underdark just feels a little more epic and alot more fun to me. That and epic levels. Original NPCs back.

[WonderBrick]

Wow, that's unprecendented.  You could have at least tried ONE battle to see what you thought.  I've never heard of someone tossing a game b/c of the way the manual made it sound.  I would have wagered most gamers don't even read the things anyway b/c learning by doing is much more appeal than learning by reading.

What can I say, I am familiar enough with the combat system to know I don't what to even waste a moment of my time.  I don't like dicks in my ass, so I know not to even bother with the latest version of dick-in-ass.  I would do the same to any racing game that ended up having Midway arcade physics gameplay.  It was a mistake on my part that got me to the point of purchase.

[Riggswolfe]

What can I say, I am familiar enough with the combat system to know I don't what to even waste a moment of my time.  I don't like dicks in my ass, so I know not to even bother with the latest version of dick-in-ass.  It was a mistake on my part that got me to the point of purchase.

How could you be familiar with the combat system? Or are you speaking of the 3rd Ed DnD combat system it is based off of? Because if you mean the in-game combat system it's not really like any others I have seen since it is a hybrid realtime/turn based

[WonderBrick]

I am refering to the turn based aspects, party aspects, and exchanged damage.

[Riggswolfe]

I am refering to the turn based aspects, party aspects, and exchanged damage.

Let me preface my reply by saying I'm not trying to be an asshole.

For one, it's not true turnbased. I typically set my attacks, unpaused and let it play out with the occasional changing of attacks in realtime.

As for party and exchanged damage...umm..so you're saying you don't like RPG combat?

[Disco Stu]

it's almost painful

What else do I need to do to get it to painful?

I don't know... maybe console games have more memoriable charecters?

[sidereal]

maybe console games have more memoriable charecters?

They totally do.  Have I told you about my Cloud Strife lunchbox?

[Alkiera]

maybe console games have more memoriable charecters?

They totally do.  Have I told you about my Cloud Strife lunchbox?

Console RPGs more frequently lock you into a character, tho.  You typically have relatively little control over the class or abilities of your characters, especially the main character.  The game is the story of that character, which the game company came up with.  In PC RPGs, you typically have more control (imho), and the game is the story of your character, whom YOU came up with.

There are counterexamples on both points, but I think on average, and in general, I'm right.

Alkiera

[sinij]

Ass-backwards stock controllers and lack of HDTV makes clear majority of my console-based RPGing a hugely lacking experience. This issue aside console-based RPGs tend to be more mush-the-button shoot/slash-em-up where as a rule you are locked into your character that linearly progresses by usually following big glowing arrow to advance ‘quest’ in a very linear fashion. Again I’m hugely generalizing here, there are exceptions to the rule in both camps. Still I could only imagine what KoTR would be like if they weren’t locked by console limitations, imagine slashing up ‘meatbags’ Jedi Academy style.

[Calantus]

Morrowind:

- You get health a bar in either expansion, you might also get it in a patch, but I'm not sure. If you got it on xbox, well.... you don't deserve a health bar.

- Easiest way to sell things is to mod a shopkeeper. Just open them up in the editor and change their money to 1/2 mil and you wont have any more problems (for best results, use the creeper). It takes 2 minutes to do (because it takes for-eh-ver to load morrowind into the editor), and probably 5-10 minutes figuring it out (just because you have to track down a tutorial, the help files are shite).

BG2:

- I never had a problem with the battles in BG2 for the most part. But then my party composition was pretty tight. I had a paladin, ranger (switched out for a fighter when I got to the expansion), fighter, fighter/cleric, fighter/druid, and a thief/mage (magic missile, breach and trap springer on a stick... I'm not one for mages). That meant I had plenty of muscle to just throw into fights, plus my cleric/druid/mage were all on buff/heal/wizard fighting duties, so I didn't have to mess around with their spells much. Also had lots of scrolls/potions on hand because I cbf'd selling them and could just pause and use one if I thought I'd need it. This, however, is recipe to be buttfucked by mind flayers, so they were always reloads.

Kotor:

- I rarely ever used the pause during combat, and this from someone who paused ALL the time during BG2. You just get your guys to attack who you want, then que up the attacks, so combat is pretty fluid if you let it be. If you didn't know from the manual that there were turns you wouldn't even notice it was turn based.

- That said, Kotor was overated. I don't regret the purchase, but it didn't make me giddy either. Damn xboxers, they don't know what good games are. Take halo for instance, what a pos that is outside of hooking up a bunch of xboxes and going at it (it got a big "meh, wanna play CS?" when we tried it at a lan party on PC). Then you have to take turns because invariably you have more people than xboxes.

[Rasix]

Heh, is there a more devisive topic among gamers than their RPG preferences (other than console v. pc)?

Couple comments, I guess since I'm bored and Draw Together blew hard so I need to relieve my sense of violation..

Geld: Yes, Baldur's Gate series can be difficult at times depending on your party build up and how fast you blow through the content.  Key is, do a lot of side quests, and you won't be behind the exp curve and have to cheese out some victories.

My parties, especially later in BG2 were just lethal.  And this is even with keeping Jahiera till the bitter end (was doing her romance arc).  The key is to use haste ALOT if you're melee heavy.  In fact, it's pretty much your bread and butter.  Always buff to the gills. And if you're still having problems, just equip someone with a vorpal weapon.  They pretty much work on anyone.

I always just did 1 PC plus the rest.  What annoyed me in BG2 is that there just weren't enough variety to your NPC companions but this was made up for big time by keeping Minsc.  Next to HK, he's one of the best RPG party mates ever.  "GO FOR THE EYES BOO! THE EYES."  Plus, I always had to keep Imoen.  Some sort of misplaced loyalty from the first game.  Damn, I'm such a gushing fanboi.

And if you haven't played Throne of Bhaal, you're missing one of the greatest combat RPGs ever.  The epic quality to some of the fights is just unparalleled.  Plus, it's a fitting end to the saga.  


I'm not sure how one could consider KOTOR, "good for a console". It was good period. Of course, what's becoming evident is this is IMO heavily. Really, good story, good pacing, good combat.  And to address a comment made earlier, NO FPS STYLE THANKS. First person twitch based melee sucks ass.  Sorry. Fable style is about as twitchy as I'll take it.  I think circle strafing jedis would induce vomitting on sight.

That being said, I can't wait for Jade Empires.  Bioware + Kung Fu = love.  If they miss with this one, I'll just be amazed.


As for Morrowind, I like the game.  I like it alot and every once in a while will play it for a month straight.  Then I'll get bored and annoyed with the game and just put it down cold Turkey.   The combat and visuals really do get quite repetitive and I just abhor the travel system.   But, the open ended gameplay is just a breath of fresh air.  Now.. if they had actually made a compelling main plot...

[ahoythematey]

Console RPGs vary quite a bit, but truly there are a lot of Final fantasy-Esque ones out there.

Then you run into gems like Wizardry: Tales Of The Forgotten Land or Disgaea - Hour Of Darkness (which you might argue is more of a strategy game) that show that there's more to console RPGs than Final Fantasy imitation.   Heck, even Squaresoft themselves (now known as Square-Enix) came up with some interesting deviations from the standard Final Fantasy-esque game mechanic, such as The Secret Of Mana/Sword Of Mana, Kingdom Hearts, and Parasite Eve.

I will forever be a Squaresoft/Square-Enix supporter because of Brave Fencer Musashi and Final Fantasy Tactics.

[Disco Stu]

maybe console games have more memoriable charecters?

They totally do.  Have I told you about my Cloud Strife lunchbox?

You're single arn't you?

[WonderBrick]

As for party and exchanged damage...umm..so you're saying you don't like RPG combat?

I just don't like watching the characters in front of me play.  This is often a linear path, with hard numbers.  Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.  Roll-Playing, as Shannow said(*points to sig*).  Stats are more important then player skill and the imagination that the player brings to the table. This makes up a large part of the RPG market, but not all of it.  Examples would be EQ, AO, and Final Fantasy.

I enjoy living a life as the character, making decisions as I think the character would do.  Player skill plays a role, but numbers run in the background.  Roleplaying, imo.  Imagination and non-linear gameplay often are seen.  It adheres by the rule "never force the player to take damage."  Examples of this would be Morrowind, UO, and Darkfall(though UO is somewhat a mix, with spells/arrows that will always hit) .

Just like racing games, there are the flexible sim racers, and the arcade racers that nearly play themselves.  Just a matter of preference.

Console RPGs more frequently lock you into a character, tho.  You typically have relatively little control over the class or abilities of your characters, especially the main character.  The game is the story of that character, which the game company came up with.  In PC RPGs, you typically have more control (imho), and the game is the story of your character, whom YOU came up with.

I agree.

[rscott]

As for party and exchanged damage...umm..so you're saying you don't like RPG combat?

I just don't like watching the characters in front of me play.  This is often a linear path, with hard numbers.  Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.  Roll-Playing, as Shannow said(*points to sig*). .

But that isn't what rollplaying is.   Thats just following the rules.

Rollplaying is the pnp version of powergaming.  Completely different.

[Comstar]

Everytime I think of finishing Morrowind I rembember I can't rembemer which mods to get, where and give up in disgust.

One day someone will release a pack of mods that are generally defined as "good" and I'll reinstall that game and finish it.  Till now all the mods confuse me and I can never work out which ones I should get.

[Calantus]

I enjoy living a life as the character, making decisions as I think the character would do.  Player skill plays a role, but numbers run in the background.  Roleplaying, imo.  Imagination and non-linear gameplay often are seen.  It adheres by the rule "never force the player to take damage."  Examples of this would be Morrowind, UO, and Darkfall(though UO is somewhat a mix, with spells/arrows that will always hit) .

Oh, so you're a roleplayer. That is entirely different than a fan of console and PC RPGs. The enjoyment of many games can depend entirely on whether you expect a game, or a roleplay experience. I can see where kotor wouldn't float your boat.

[Shannow]

I must admit I miss the combat from the old gold box games...

I can still remember getting into my first big fight in the slums in Pools of Radiance...like a screen and a half of goblins...those fights were epic and required planning in making sure your melee guys were in the right place..Making sure you placed your fireballs for maximum effectiveness without crisping your own guys..The sweet satisfaction of a big square skull and crossbones..heh.

I rather enjoy BG & BGII combat too. Going up against other magic users is fun as you figure out the best counterspell combinations to blow through their protections. First time I went through BGII I did one PC, this time Im using 4 PCs and 2 NPCs and am doing all the side quests.

[Xilren's Twin]

As for party and exchanged damage...umm..so you're saying you don't like RPG combat?

I just don't like watching the characters in front of me play.  This is often a linear path, with hard numbers.  Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.  Roll-Playing, as Shannow said(*points to sig*).  Stats are more important then player skill and the imagination that the player brings to the table. This makes up a large part of the RPG market, but not all of it.  Examples would be EQ, AO, and Final Fantasy.

Ok, so in a console or PC RPG game that you would like, how would combat be handle if you choose to pursue it?  If you dont like stats and character skill being the primary determinants of combat are you saying you want a player skill/twich based combat model?

Just looking for clarification b/c as others have said, the combat system in KoToR was actually a pretty good meld of real time and turn based and flexibile in terms of how much of each you wanted.  But, being what I would consider a typical RPG, your effectiveness was largerly dependant of your character's abilities and to a lesser extent your decisions to pick the right ability use at the right time.  And that "typical RPG" includes most p&p rpg games too.

Xilren

[Sky]

Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.

As opposed to combat which is knitting a quilt and baking muffins. Why do you play crpgs again? Do you live under a bridge?

[WonderBrick]

Ok, so in a console or PC RPG game that you would like, how would combat be handle if you choose to pursue it?  If you dont like stats and character skill being the primary determinants of combat are you saying you want a player skill/twich based combat model?

Just looking for clarification b/c as others have said, the combat system in KoToR was actually a pretty good meld of real time and turn based and flexibile in terms of how much of each you wanted.  But, being what I would consider a typical RPG, your effectiveness was largerly dependant of your character's abilities and to a lesser extent your decisions to pick the right ability use at the right time.  And that "typical RPG" includes most p&p rpg games too.

Todd Howard, Producer of Oblivion(sequel to Morrowind), pretty much nailed it perfect, imo.

Combat is one of the major gameplay elements that's being completely revamped in Oblivion. Some of the most interesting feedback the team got from Morrowind players concerned the nature of combat. PC gamers are used to Western RPG conventions, most of which are derived from Dungeons & Dragons -- conventions that include behind-the scenes die rolls to determine success or failure. Those conventions aren't nearly as common on consoles, especially in first-person perspective games such as Morrowind. Howard described it this way: "It's amazing how many people played Morrowind and said (to us), 'Why is my character missing when he swings? The enemy is right there!,' or 'Why did that guy see me? I thought I was hiding.'"

"We've realized how much combat people really do in a game like this and made it more of a priority to get it right," Howard continued. The Oblivion team actually developed three entirely new combat systems and did extensive testing on them all before settling on the one that will be in the final game. The basic idea of Oblivion combat is to impart the 'kinetic energy feeling' of guys bashing each other with swords. The game will have a number of special moves available and blocking is actively under player control, not automatic. As a result, timing moves, shielding yourself, and responding to the enemy becomes a key strategy in fighting. The team also didn't shy away from the gore either. It isn't over the top or gratuitous, but it does fall in line with the design philosophy of trying to make the game as realistic as possible. Basically, when you really smack someone with a sword, you expect a certain level of blood to come spewing out, so the team is trying to fulfill those expectations.

Action gamers, on the other hand, won't necessarily have an unfair advantage. As Howard himself pointed out, the combat system in every Elder Scrolls game has walked a fine line between RPG and action. They've all been first-person and players always controlled their sword arm in real time, but in prior games, the die rolls added an extra layer of randomness between the player and the world. While the combat system of Oblivion tries to remove those layers, RPG players can breathe easy knowing that their beloved stats haven't gone anywhere. This difference this time is that the player's stats determine what they can do, and how effective those things are, but they're now in full control of the "when." Blocking a blow is manual, for instance, but the effectiveness of that block is determined by your character's block skill -- things like how much damage the block absorbs, how much fatigues it causes and so forth. Striking an enemy with a sword is no longer random, but the amount of damage caused is a function of strength and weapon skill.

Source

[Shannow]

Combat is usually a trading of blows, and required damage.

As opposed to combat which is knitting a quilt and baking muffins. Why do you play crpgs again? Do you live under a bridge?

Dude, don't mess with those muffins.

[Xilren's Twin]

Todd Howard, Producer of Oblivion(sequel to Morrowind), pretty much nailed it perfect, imo.

Combat is one of the major gameplay elements that's being completely revamped in Oblivion. Some of the most interesting feedback the team got from Morrowind players concerned the nature of combat. PC gamers are used to Western RPG conventions, most of which are derived from Dungeons & Dragons -- conventions that include behind-the scenes die rolls to determine success or failure. Those conventions aren't nearly as common on consoles, especially in first-person perspective games such as Morrowind. Howard described it this way: "It's amazing how many people played Morrowind and said (to us), 'Why is my character missing when he swings? The enemy is right there!,' or 'Why did that guy see me? I thought I was hiding.'"

Ah, so more twitch less character.  Gotcha.

No offense to Oblivion dev, but that really won't change the gripes from non stat heads all that much.  Now instead of saying "why am I missing with my sword he's right there?" it will be "why isn't this thing dying? I've hit him with my sword 10 times in a row!" from getting low damage numbers or weapon immunities that are hidden.  Or, "why am I still taking damage, I successfully blocked!".

Xilren

[Paelos]

Why would "non stat heads" care about RPGs anyway? Without some sort of individual character development it loses all flavor. Deus Ex 2, amongst a myriad of other horrific reasons, proved that to be the case. I always though the original DE was the best way to combine the RPG feel with the twitch combat style.

[Merusk]

I rather enjoy BG & BGII combat too. Going up against other magic users is fun as you figure out the best counterspell combinations to blow through their protections.

I found that a "Big Fucking Sword(tm)" works best.  My winning crew was 2 rangers, a monk, a cleric, a paladin and Imoen.

Ah, so more twitch less character. Gotcha.

No offense to Oblivion dev, but that really won't change the gripes from non stat heads all that much. Now instead of saying "why am I missing with my sword he's right there?" it will be "why isn't this thing dying? I've hit him with my sword 10 times in a row!" from getting low damage numbers or weapon immunities that are hidden. Or, "why am I still taking damage, I successfully blocked!".

More like more "action-based" less "RNG-based", I'd think.  What they're proposing sounds a little more like a Zelda RPG than a D&D RPG paradigm.   You're running along the rails what character development they choose for you, but there's still development. Different player skillsets are used (button timing vs Min/Maxing) but still an RPG.

[WonderBrick]

Different player skillsets are used (button timing vs Min/Maxing) but still an RPG.

Yes