A new golden age for RPGs?

[Ardent]

I really need to stop dicking around with these time-intensive, repetitive MMORPGs.

I mean, just scratching the surface of upcoming releases shows a treasure trove for RPG lovers:

Lord of the Rings: The Third Age
Bard's Tale
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Scrapland
Knights of the Old Republic 2
Jade Empire
Bioshock
Elder Scrolls 4
Neverwinter Nights 2
Fallout 3 (maybe)
Baldur's Gate 3 (rumor)

Back in the late 90s, RPGs like Baldur's Gate were consistently top sellers. Is the pendulum swinging back? Are we entering a new golden age of RPGs?

[schild]

Don't forget recent releases like ShadowHearts, Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne, as well as the Feb release of Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga.

[Ardent]

Of course ... I only listed PC and Xbox because those are the platforms I own, selfish bastard that I am.

Please don't tempt me down the PS2 road, I'm buried in titles as it is. ;)

[BlackSky]

I, being the insidious Square-Enix fanboi that I am, am looking forward to Final Fantasy XII. Not to mention the previously WonderSwan only Final Fantasy I and II remakes for the GBA (Dawn of Souls).

[Righ]

Back in the late 90s

new golden age

Rather an overstatement, perhaps?

[Ardent]

Perhaps. Reasons?

[sinij]

Most of them will be console abortions.

[Rasix]

Most of them will be console abortions.

If you've followed RPGs at all in your life and current developments at all, you'll realize what a monumentally dumb statement you just made.  And fuck, half of them aren't even console titles.

But hey, CONSUL H8 4 TEH WIN!

[Toast]

Consoles have a great place in the world of RPGs.

For example, the control pad enables some really good combat systems and control schemes.  

Console RPGs often have great stories. Sadly, it seems that PC RPGs spend too much time on the graphics engine or making virtual giant sandboxes to play in. The game experience suffers.

[schild]

Console RPGs often have great stories. Sadly, it seems that PC RPGs spend too much time on the graphics engine or making virtual giant sandboxes to play in. The game experience suffers.

I offer my counterexample. Black Isle and Bioware - everything before Neverwinter Nights (where the official campaigns were...ASS). Oh, and there will really never be another Golden Age until something is as good as Planescape: Torment, am i rite?

[Ardent]

Oh, Rasix, don't you know anything? Knights of the Old Republic was hated by critics and players alike, and I'm sure the sequel as well as Jade Empire (designed by the same team) will suXXor just as hard.

Oh, and there will really never be another Golden Age until something is as good as Planescape: Torment, am i rite?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. ;) Kidding, love, hugs, don't ban me plz.

[BlackSky]

I think it's really about the evolution of the genre. We've come a long way from Ultima I. Console or PC, as long as an RPG can sate my curiosity and short attention span, I'm happy with it.

[geldonyetich]

Oh, Rasix, don't you know anything? Knights of the Old Republic was hated by critics and players alike, and I'm sure the sequel as well as Jade Empire (designed by the same team) will suXXor just as hard.

If that isn't sarcasm, it really should be.

And yes, many console RPGs have been rocking, not neccessarily because they're on consoles (which have both good and bad games), and not neccessarily because they are RPGs on a console (there have been bad console RPGs), but because a much higher portion of PC games are goddamn clones (and therefore I often turn to consoles for innovation).

[Calantus]

Any RPG fan without a PS2 either has a specific dislike for console RPGs, is a poor bastard, or needs to get off their ass right now and buy one.

[Ardent]

Oh, Rasix, don't you know anything? Knights of the Old Republic was hated by critics and players alike, and I'm sure the sequel as well as Jade Empire (designed by the same team) will suXXor just as hard.

If that isn't sarcasm, it really should be.

Your sarcasm detector is working properly. Carry on.

[sidereal]

Consoles have a great place in the world of RPGs.

They've definitely been better for plot.  Planescape aside, PC RPGs tend to build story around the same sort of vapid quest vending that make MMORPGs such cesspools.  It's a pretty sad statement when recycled anime save-the-world-from-the-bloated-robot-demon plots are the best in the genre.

And where would we be without 30-minute long summon spell animations?  Or the always welcome 'stuff jewel in socket' mechanic?

Wake me up when there's a Tactical golden age.  I miss Jagged Alliance.

[ahoythematey]

It's all about the GBA and PS2 for tactical.  Well, unless your tactical game must be realistically violent.

[Disco Stu]

 It's a pretty sad statement when recycled anime save-the-world-from-the-bloated-robot-demon plots are the best in the genre.

Wait let me see if I understand you correctly. In your world console RPGs have better story lines than PC RPGs. Fuck you can put aside Planescape if you want and I can still call you an idoit baised on Fallout 1 & 2, Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, the Neverwinter Nights expansions,  System Shock 2, Deus Ex. And I'm probably missing some. And thats just recent games go back any further and the list gets a lot longer.

[WonderBrick]

or making virtual giant sandboxes to play in. The game experience suffers.

Strangely, it is a sandbox that I desire.  Then again, I am looking for a world to live in, not just a game.

[ahoythematey]

I'll put aside the entire Final Fantasy series and we are still left with Alundra, Shenmue, Chrono Trigger & Cross, Earthbound, Vandal Hearts, Skies of Arcadia, Super Mario RPG, Parasite Eve.  I won't say they have better stories than the PC games you listed, but apart from System Shock 2 and Fallout, the console RPG's consistently engage me more than any RPG's on the PC.  Personal taste does play a big role, I admit.

[HaemishM]

And yes, many console RPGs have been rocking, not neccessarily because they're on consoles (which have both good and bad games), and not neccessarily because they are RPGs on a console (there have been bad console RPGs), but because a much higher portion of PC games are goddamn clones (and therefore I often turn to consoles for innovation).

I think it's because RPG makers are just realizing that you can sell the same numbers of units of an RPG title on a console and make more profit than you can with similar sales on the exact same title for PC. There's a reason some of these RPG's are coming out on X-Box first/only. God forbid there be some incredibly useable input device like the Phantom mouse/keyboard combo that works for a console as well as that input works for a PC, because some of the more traditional PC-only flavor games like FPS and RTS may only make the transition to console-first or exclusive.

[Merusk]

I'll put aside the entire Final Fantasy series and we are still left with Alundra, Shenmue, Chrono Trigger & Cross, Earthbound, Vandal Hearts, Skies of Arcadia, Super Mario RPG, Parasite Eve.  I won't say they have better stories than the PC games you listed, but apart from System Shock 2 and Fallout, the console RPG's consistently engage me more than any RPG's on the PC.  Personal taste does play a big role, I admit.

You missed Zelda, heretic.

[Sky]

God forbid there be some incredibly useable input device like the Phantom mouse/keyboard combo that works for a console as well as that input works for a PC, because some of the more traditional PC-only flavor games like FPS and RTS may only make the transition to console-first or exclusive.

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3495

[Daeven]

It's all cyclical. Remember how not so long ago the PC was dead and in the Darkness would the Console Bind them?

Again?

*shrug*

We'll go though another RPG glut, then people will start shoveling  crap RPG's because they are the 'in' type of game, and then the PS3 et al will come out and PC gaming will once again be 'dead' becasue all that is available is crap.

Again.

Rinse and repeat a few years later.

[HaemishM]

God forbid there be some incredibly useable input device like the Phantom mouse/keyboard combo that works for a console as well as that input works for a PC, because some of the more traditional PC-only flavor games like FPS and RTS may only make the transition to console-first or exclusive.

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3495

No, I don't just mean any keyboard, I mean a good couch-friendly keyboard-mouse combo like the one the Phantom is touting.

[WonderBrick]

It appears you can hook up any keyboard and mouse you want to that adapter.  

The strength of the Phantom combination is just the nicely designed "board" it is on.  While nicely designed, you could easily make one yourself, or get a card table.  Or just buy the Phantom version when available, and modify with SmartJoy Frag and your favorite keyboard and mouse of choice.  Personally, I like having a stable table, even if just a card table, rather then something that has alot of unwanted room for movement in my lap(no jokes please).

[sidereal]

an idoit

Oh, sweet irony.

PC RPGs definitely have better graphics.  They definitely have more complexity.  They're definitely bigger.  And the settings are often inherently cool (Fallout. . faaantastic).  But the stories definitely aren't as engaging.  I should point out that I was remiss in leaving out KOTOR.  KOTOR rocks the party that rocks the party.  Other than that, the storylines in the Fallouts and the Black Isle spawn are pretty much of the 'kill the foozle, get the shiny, repeat, kill the archmage, yay' variety.

Basically all of these games as well as tactical games are combat simulators. . little optimization problems. . stuck inside a story.  I see it as a spectrum.  On one hand you have full tactical games, in which the story is kind of a fig leaf. . something barely holding it together (or in the case of Advance Wars, failing even that), but that's fine because the optimization problem is hard enough to carry it.  You could actually have fun replaying those battles over and over.  On the other end you have most console RPGs, where the optimization problem is really easy.  You almost always just do your best move over and over.  But it doesn't matter because the story engages you enough to keep going.

PC RPGs are stuck in the middle.  The combat isn't inherently complicated enough to carry on without a story (how many PC RPG battles would you want to replay over and over, even in multiplayer?), but the stories are too predictable and repetitive to stand by themselves, so you glean a little pleasure from each and call it a day.

I'd take the storylines in Chrono-foo or the modern Final Fantasy incarnations over the recycled PC stuff any day.

[Rasix]

Wow. Someone just has no clue what they're talking about.

Here's one example that makes everything you've said 110% gobblegook: Planetscape: Torment.  And from the what you've said, it looks like you've seen Interplay/BI games on the shelf but not ever actually played them.  

Really, way to look stupid.

[sidereal]

Here's one example that makes everything you've said 110% gobblegook: Planetscape: Torment.

Which part of this was gobblegook?

Planescape aside

I'm not going to let a game that came out in 199freaking9 be the saving grace of PC RPGs.

but not ever actually played them.

Every single one of them.  Even Icewind Dale 2.

With that out of the way, you're going to have to come back with some content.

[BlackSky]

I'd take the storylines in Chrono-foo or the modern Final Fantasy incarnations over the recycled PC stuff any day.

Thats my argument against PC RPG's. I need to be immersed. Baldurs gate did that, but no other PC *only* RPG has had a story that, to me, was worth a shit. It's al basically the same. And what was the last turn-based RPG for PC? Septerra Core? Crap.

I want a deep, twisting, turning story that makes me want to play, and so far, I have only seen 2 or 3 PC RPG's that have done that.

[schild]

I'm not going to let a game that came out in 199freaking9 be the saving grace of PC RPGs.

Not having the best first day, are you? :)

[sidereal]

If you can't stagger in drunk and belligerent, don't stagger in at all

[SurfD]

I'll put aside the entire Final Fantasy series and we are still left with Alundra, Shenmue, Chrono Trigger & Cross, Earthbound, Vandal Hearts, Skies of Arcadia, Super Mario RPG, Parasite Eve.  I won't say they have better stories than the PC games you listed, but apart from System Shock 2 and Fallout, the console RPG's consistently engage me more than any RPG's on the PC.  Personal taste does play a big role, I admit.

You missed Zelda, heretic.

And Xenogears, the Breath of Fire games, the Suikoden Series, Kingdom Hearts, Grandia, Dark Cloud and .hack

[Toast]

It's awfully hard to top Planescape or Baldur's Gate...period. Games just don't get much better than those, regardless of system or genre.

[Rasix]

I think this has to be some sort of irreconcilable split.  

I haven't played a console RPG with a good story since the days of FF2/3, Earthbound, and Chrono Trigger (I played KOTOR on the PC, /shrug).  I'm sorry but the teen angsty crap with laughable dialogue or hyper confusing/non-sensical anime crap is not what I'd call a good story.  Fable's was OK if highly generic and abbreviated.

Now, I haven't owned a PS2, so I can't comment on many of those games. But the best stories I've played recently have been the stuff coming from the hands of the Black Isle/Bioware/Interplay folks.  Hell, just about every one of their offerings beyond the IWD series has had an engaging, mature story to it (BG1's was a tad simplistic).

I think both platforms (PC/console) bring something great to the genre and with Bioware's plunging into the console market things are just going to get better for those of us with an XBox.  To pass off one as inherently superior to the other is just being short sighted. I'll agree that consoles have the edge in regards to shear volume. But both sides of the coin have put out landmark titles that have fundamentally kept me in love with the RPG goodness.