AoC vs WAR vs ? - Biggest Launch Disappointment 2008

[schild]

More Here

I'm seeing all kinds of complaints about this GM, Agnosia.   He's obviously got a "Vision" for the server, since he's goading several PVP guilds into playing differently than they are.  Stellar, it's like the worst abuses of 1999 EQ and UO all over again.

I'm so glad I didn't buy this game. 

I would say this for any game (this has nothing to do with Conan) - but any GM that cracks down on SA or 4Chan or Ebaums gets a lol from me. Particularly when they shootdown the obvious lulz SA went for by saying that 4Chan was Ebaums. This could've happened in horizons and I would've cracked up. But your sentence at the end doesn't even parse for me.

So there's a problem on PVP servers. Shock, awe, news at 11. Sky still blue. Etc.

[tazelbain]

More Here

I'm seeing all kinds of complaints about this GM, Agnosia.   He's obviously got a "Vision" for the server, since he's goading several PVP guilds into playing differently than they are.  Stellar, it's like the worst abuses of 1999 EQ and UO all over again.

I'm so glad I didn't buy this game. 

Ditto.  Among other things.

You don't make FFA server if don't want people to play FFA.   Still total Amateur hour at Funcom.

[Slayerik]

Yeah, its weak. (the GM actions anyways)

Luckily I'm on a PVP server so I can experience the fun first hand. Seriously, I have had a ton of great fights and grudges created already and I'm not even to 40 yet. PvP is fun, ganking and spawn camping have not been a problem in the least for me. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Calantus]

Why do people still bitch on FFA PVP servers? Putting in a GM request for anything other than world/NPC bugs should delete your character and then put you at the character creation screen for a PVE server.

I'm glad I decided to wait on a free trial for this game. I hate being told by mods/GMs that I can't spawn camp or any other PVP that the game allows. I've been kicked and banned so many times for spawn camping in FPS games and every time I just wonder why it's my fault the campees are too shit to stop me. I get as pissed off as anyone when I get spawn camped or ambushed by a rogue when I'm low on health or my lowbie alts get killed, but that's just the way it is. I would love nothing more than to never be attacked unless I want to fight but if that's the price I have to pay to be able to do it back then that's what it has to be. You can choose the rulesets but you have to accept the rules of the rulesets you choose.

[Venkman]

So there's a problem on PVP servers. Shock, awe, news at 11. Sky still blue. Etc.

The problem isn't the server. It's the GM living a unilateral society-building dream. That is something interesting, in that it hasn't been a problem in a mainstream* game for quite some time.

* Eve's an awesome game and does well. It is not mainstream, as a core concept.

[Simond]

I know this. But its my understanding that there is a "prison" system, and bounty ETC... Just isn't in yet, lol. (funcoms problem).

I can't wait until the bounty system et al are patched in - the exploits are going to be hilarious.

[Venkman]

Update to all this.

    PvP is acceptable in all shapes or forms. We have built-in mechanics that allow the player being killed to find a way out of it.. When those mechanics fail or do not function as intended we will step in. Until then we will be as hands off as possible.

    Now, we have a lot of players, a lot of servers, and a lot of petitions, as you may know. We do get a lot of petitions on Deathwhisper about "griefing". When do we take action? When it crosses the line. You can camp someone until the next day if you want. More power to you.

    What you cannot do is verbally threaten them or use inappropriate language. You cannot use exploits or bugs to kill other players, or for any reason, for that matter. The game is rated M, but that does not mean you can use racial slurs or issue personal attacks.

    In this case, the GM was seeing a lot of reports of griefing with regards to SA's guild. He didn't say you couldn't pvp. He made the honest mistake of giving out his personal opinion that maybe keeping a lower profile might be handy in avoiding a negative reputation. Obviously, it was a mistake. If you feel like it, bring all 300 of your friends, enemies, or whatever and beat each other senseless.

    It seems that our policies are not clear cut enough, and we will make every effort to clarify them so that there is absolutely no question as to what is appropriate and what is not.

Not sure how "honest mistake" and "GM" go together without "lack of training". But ymmv.

[cmlancas]

I know there's a lot of Funcom hate in this thread, but that PR piece is strikingly well written.

Kudos to Funcom. Who'd have thought?

[UnSub]

I know there's a lot of Funcom hate in this thread, but that PR piece is strikingly well written.

Kudos to Funcom. Who'd have thought?

Indeed. I have more hope for The Secret World all the time.

[Megrim]

Update to all this.

    PvP is acceptable in all shapes or forms. We have built-in mechanics that allow the player being killed to find a way out of it.. When those mechanics fail or do not function as intended we will step in. Until then we will be as hands off as possible.

    Now, we have a lot of players, a lot of servers, and a lot of petitions, as you may know. We do get a lot of petitions on Deathwhisper about "griefing". When do we take action? When it crosses the line. You can camp someone until the next day if you want. More power to you.

    What you cannot do is verbally threaten them or use inappropriate language. You cannot use exploits or bugs to kill other players, or for any reason, for that matter. The game is rated M, but that does not mean you can use racial slurs or issue personal attacks.

    In this case, the GM was seeing a lot of reports of griefing with regards to SA's guild. He didn't say you couldn't pvp. He made the honest mistake of giving out his personal opinion that maybe keeping a lower profile might be handy in avoiding a negative reputation. Obviously, it was a mistake. If you feel like it, bring all 300 of your friends, enemies, or whatever and beat each other senseless.

    It seems that our policies are not clear cut enough, and we will make every effort to clarify them so that there is absolutely no question as to what is appropriate and what is not.

Not sure how "honest mistake" and "GM" go together without "lack of training". But ymmv.

So camping comeone's corpse 25/7 is a-ok, but calling that same person a poo-poo head is crossing the line... The hell does that work?

[Venkman]

You're only allowed to prevent them from having fun. You can't use words though, because that makes it personal.

[Murgos]

Uh, one is playing the game by the published rules that you and they accepted when you open the box, installed and created the character on the PVP server.

The other has nothing to do with the game and is just being an asshole.  The two are not related.

Go play a pick up game of flag football.  When you burn the guy defending you for a touchdown say some of the shit people try and get away with online and chances are you'll get a pop in the eye, kicked out of the game and told not to come back, ever.

[Megrim]

Uh, one is playing the game by the published rules that you and they accepted when you open the box, installed and created the character on the PVP server.

The other has nothing to do with the game and is just being an asshole.  The two are not related.

Go play a pick up game of flag football.  When you burn the guy defending you for a touchdown say some of the shit people try and get away with online and chances are you'll get a pop in the eye, kicked out of the game and told not to come back, ever.

Yes, because relationships online are defined exactly as they are in real life.

[Venkman]

Go play a pick up game of flag football.  When you burn the guy defending you for a touchdown say some of the shit people try and get away with online and chances are you'll get a pop in the eye, kicked out of the game and told not to come back, ever.

Anonymity.

More important though, acting like a jerk and talking like a jerk are generally not mutually exclusive. If I'm griefing you (which I won't, because I don't grief), I'm not likely to be all contrite about it.

"Oh, I'm sorry, did I kill you again on purpose?"
"Oh man, I did it again!"
"Wow, really sorry, I did it again!"

[Murgos]

Yes, because relationships online are defined exactly as they are in real life.

Kinda the fuckin point, ain't it?  Online behavior comes down to pretty much one tenet.  How hard a concept is, "Don't be an asshole."?

[Megrim]

So camping someone 24/7 is perfectly fine?

[Threash]

So camping someone 24/7 is perfectly fine?

Yes, why is that so hard to understand.  Punching someone is bad, punching someone during a boxing match is not only fine but should be encouraged.

[Megrim]

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

[Threash]

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

Sure i do, and if i don't agree with them then i simply don't play.  Crying because someone tackled you during a football game makes you an idiot.

[Megrim]

So if the public baths are broken, instead of fixing them the only solution is to burn them down - 'cause they're broken anyway so who cares. Right...

Point being, the original quote from the devs was assinine in it's assumption that being an arsehole according to arbitrary rules is ok (since camping newb respawns serves as some kind of an immersive character experience, apparently...), but calling someone an arsehole for doing it will get you banned.

[Murgos]

So camping someone 24/7 is perfectly fine?

Yes.  That's the rules of the game.  I know and accepted that when I bought it.  Also, I can reciprocate if I want too, which means there is risk taken by the camper.  If I have a good guild it could back fire and he could end up spawn camped 24/7.

Sending me 70 or 80 spam messages cursing out my family and my ethnicity?  The only reciprocation is for me to be an ass and abuse back.  Not really so much fun.  Also, as far as I am aware it's behavior that will get you banned in any game ever released.  Even Eve will ban you if you break that line once too often.

You ever question the rules? To ask, you know, if they might be poorly thought out?

I'm not sure why you think the two subjects are even slightly related.

[Megrim]

Um, didn't i just post why i thought the two were related?

[Murgos]

Um, didn't i just post why i thought the two were related?

And it still doesn't make sense to me.

Also, don't be retarded, this isn't about isolated one person calling another an asshole one offs.

But you rail on, you bright diamond you.

[Megrim]

lol, how is it my fault if it doesn't make sense to you? I mean, sure, if i'm not explaining myself clearly enough or something.

I just think i'm seeing the innate hilarity in them saying (1) and following up with an opposite on (2), when the two are so closely related.

[HaemishM]

So there's a problem on PVP servers. Shock, awe, news at 11. Sky still blue. Etc.

Yep, pretty much the exact problem I predicted during open beta, spawn camping and the whining that comes with it.

[Venkman]

There are at least two layers to this discussion, but they are related:

1) Do you agree with the rules at all? I actually don't care about this level anymore now that they've clarified the rules (you can do whatever you want, you just can't make it personal). Internet. Case closed. Leave the server if you (general "you") don't like it.

2) Are you confused by the rules? This is the part that sparked these last few pages. It goes back to the GMs comment:

killing a player once, or hell even a few times is ok. But tieing a player up for more then just a few minutes by killing them isnt really cool.l

That is the part they had to retract in the statement:

He made the honest mistake of giving out his personal opinion

Note they approve the actions, just not the words.  Kill and kill again, just don't spam and get all racial about it.

Ironically, the person most likely to get in trouble with the GMs is probably the person being griefed through ingame actions, not the griefer But like Haemish said, this was a predictable outcome.

[Murgos]

I just think i'm seeing the innate hilarity in them saying (1) and following up with an opposite on (2), when the two are so closely related.

No, that's what I don't understand.  How you think that 1 and 2 are related.

If you don't want open pvp, stay off the pvp server.  Those that are on the pvp server (or any server) should be protected from abuse that is outside the realm & rules of the game itself.

Getting your ass kicked in a system you voluntarily joined especially when you are fully aware of it's potential problems does not give you the right to abuse other people.

[lamaros]

lol, retardspeak.

Being an arsehole by camping someone and being an arsehole by using bigoted language, etc are not necessarily the same thing. Just becuase they share a word doesn't make them equavilent.

When I play soccer with a friend I might nutmeg them, then rub it in by scoring the goal with my head. They might say "dude I know you're better than me, but don't be an arsehole about it". Or I might be an arsehole by tackling them studs up and breaking their ankle.

Just because we can use a word to apply to two things doesn't mean they are the same.

Camping, griefing = arseholes but permitted.
Bigoted, abusive = arseholes and not permitted.

How fucking hard it is?

If someone dislikes fighting we're not going to think them very clever if they deliberatly get into a fight and then complain about being hit and ask that fights be changed so that people can't hit each other.

[palmer_eldritch]

There is no "nice" FFA PvP.

On a slight tangent, there's a lot of weirdness happening in the RP PvP community at the moment (euro side at least). People moaning that they have been put on some guild's kill on sight list (or more likely told that they were on a KOS list by someone who forget about it five minutes later) because they ganked people, and running to the forums to moan about it.

"Just because I killed your guildies doesn't mean you should declare war on my guild!!" seems to be the gist of it. I don't get it, it's the first time I have seen behaviour in an MMO that I genuinely can't work out at all.

[Venkman]

This is freakin' hilarious. I swear, it's like 2003 all the hell over again. First there were people having faith that the fun/balance/content will be patched in later. Then there was the success that was just big enough in comparison to the big title of the day to be relevant but not big enough to be considered real competition. Then there's a whole bunch of spotty performance issues. And now there's a bunch of DAoC WoW-trained newbs to the genre bitching that the PvP they left their game for isn't actually how they envisioned it.

Everything old is new again! Shit, I thought that was a 20 year cycle.

[UnSub]

Everything old is new again! Shit, I thought that was a 20 year cycle.

Everything moves faster on the internet.

It's not a surprise. Players have come from a warm and comfy PvP environment where they know the rules and the trails are clearly marked to a new world where they aren't sure of what is going on and the PvP contains actual new dangers. So of course they are going to get scared and complain on the forums about it.

[schild]

I'm not sure what cycle you're talking about. When did things ever change with players?

[Megrim]

lol, retardspeak.

Being an arsehole by camping someone and being an arsehole by using bigoted language, etc are not necessarily the same thing. Just becuase they share a word doesn't make them equavilent.

When I play soccer with a friend I might nutmeg them, then rub it in by scoring the goal with my head. They might say "dude I know you're better than me, but don't be an arsehole about it". Or I might be an arsehole by tackling them studs up and breaking their ankle.

Just because we can use a word to apply to two things doesn't mean they are the same.

Camping, griefing = arseholes but permitted.
Bigoted, abusive = arseholes and not permitted.

How fucking hard it is?

If someone dislikes fighting we're not going to think them very clever if they deliberatly get into a fight and then complain about being hit and ask that fights be changed so that people can't hit each other.

It's still flying right over your and Murgos' head. Darniaq caught it on the first post, and you two slowpokes are still trying to catch up. Whatever, keep telling yourselves is "ok" because the devs said it was.

[lamaros]

It's still flying right over your and Murgos' head. Darniaq caught it on the first post, and you two slowpokes are still trying to catch up. Whatever, keep telling yourselves is "ok" because the devs said it was.

That's like like saying handball isn't allowed in soccer because Fifa says so right? What does Fifa know, eh?

[Megrim]

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