AoC / WAR - PvP & RvR recap

[DarkSign]

So can someone give me a recap on what's known about AOC and WAR PvP/RvR in total, please?

Thanks.

[Njal]

Can't say about AoC as I haven't followed it closely enough.

WAR

in general there are 4 tiers that are being fought over based on char level. All actions in that tier incl pve quests, pvp instances, world objectives and general gamkage contribute to control of that tier with the points being skewed to overland control and general gankage as the most important. Once enough of the tiers are controlled by one side then that side gets to try and fight it's way into the enemy capital city, if sucessfull they get to sack the city for a day or two then server gets reset. This is happening on 3 seperate fronts simultaneously.

As for the nuts and bolts, no comment.

[Arrrgh]

In WAR you get to kill elves. In AOC you don't get to kill elves. WAR wins.

[UnSub]

In WAR you get to kill elves. In AOC you don't get to kill elves. WAR wins.

Boobs + blood > elves.

[waylander]

Warhammer appears to be DAOC 2.0 as far as keeps and sieges go, and open realm PVP(RvR) sounds like its going to be the same old stuff we're used to seeing but with more hybrid classes. Here's a recap:

Siege Warfare in Warhammer Online Explained
The Warhammer Online Link

As you have no doubt seen in recent podcasts and newsletters, we?ve added Keeps and Siege to Warhammer Online!  Now it is time to offer an in-depth explanation as to how these systems work and how they are integral to the Realm v Realm? (RvR) experience.

Integrating keeps into WAR builds on the foundation and success of Dark Age of Camelot?.  In that game, keeps were the epitome of land ownership and helped drive the sense of pride in RvR.  In WAR, keeps are once again a focal point of pride for your Realm and worth the battle defend or capture them.


Keep Basics

There is at least one keep per realm, per zone in all Tier pairings except for Tier 1.

   *Tier 2 zones have one keep each (two per pairing)

   *Tier 3 zones have one keep each (two per pairing) with fortified outer walls

   *Tier 4 zones have two keeps each for a total of six keeps
 

The taking of a keep has three distinct stages:
1.   Breach the exterior of the keep
2.    Breach the keep?s inner sanctum.
3.    Defeat the Keep Lord.


Look and Feel

All keeps are artistically-themed to reflect the buildings of their original owners. In other words, an Empire keep looks like an Empire castle and a Chaos keep looks very chaotic. High Elf keeps are white with tall towers, and Dark Elf keeps have lots of spikes. You get the idea. When captured, these keeps take on the look and feel of the invading army.

When a keep is captured, its geometry will not change, but the look and feel of the keep will be altered to reflect the new owner. An Empire keep captured by Chaos, will still look like an Empire keep, only now it is defaced by symbols of Tzeentch, littered with bodies, belching fire and smoke, and sporting Chaos banners.

Greenskin Keep

High Elf Keep

Chaos Keep

Dark Elf Keep

Dwarf Keep

Empire Keep


Keep Structure

All keeps share a similar underlying structural layout with three different levels (ground level, 2nd floor and roof).  Access to the interior of a keep is gained via a single breakable door on the ground level.  Inside the core structure are ramps that lead upwards (no ladders) to the various levels which offer access to platforms for offensive and defensive weapons.

Tier 2 keeps consist of a single fortified tower structure with a single door to breach/defend. Tier 3 and 4 keeps are protected by an additional outer wall (aka Wall Walks for the castle definition fiends), thus adding another door to breach before the keep can be taken. These doors can be damaged using player abilities, but the use of siege weapons, such as rams and trebuchets, are highly recommended!

In addition to the breakable keep door (likely under heavy siege), keeps with an outer wall have two interactive (postern) doors that defenders can use to get in and out of the keep.

Dark Elf Keep Wall

Chaos Keep Wall

Greenskin Keep Wall


Keep Ownership

At the start of the game (or when the campaign resets), keep ownership is based on the zone in which they stand (i.e., the keep in Ostland is owned by the Empire and the two keeps in the Chaos Wastes are owned by Chaos). In the Tier 4 neutral zones, ownership of the two keeps is split with Order and Destruction each owning one.

Chaos Keep


Keep Lord

Each keep is ruled by a Keep Lord and his retinue of 4 bodyguards. In order to successfully capture a keep for your Realm, the Keep Lord must be killed. This plays out as Public Quest? and rewards are based on the PQ contribution system. When the Keep Lord is killed, all remaining guards are killed (despawned), and new Keep Lord (with retinue) of the appropriate Realm will spawn.



Guards

In addition to the Keep Lords retinue, keeps will have guards stationed in and around their walls. The fighting over Battlefield Objective will dictate how many guards are located in the keep. The more Battlefield Objectives you hold, the more guards you have at your keeps.

Guard levels are set to the maximum for the zone per standard RvR level caps (level 12 for Tier 1, level 23 for Tier 2, level 40 for Tiers 3 and 4).


Zone Control

Capturing an enemy keep will play heavily into RvR Zone Control. Once a keep is captured, the Zone Control meter will move significantly in favor of the victors.


Siege Weapons

Keeps and surrounding areas will have several pre-set locations where siege weapons can be deployed and used by players. Some siege weapons will simply work by interacting with them for a period of time to damage pre-determined targets (such as a door).  Other siege weapons, such as the trebuchet, will give players a Ground Target Area Effect (GTAE) reticule which they can move to attack specific locations.

There are four types of siege weapons:

    *Rams are can be used against keep doors or other pre-selected targets
    *Ballistae can be used against individual players or other siege weapons
    *Cannons, Catapults and Trebuchets can be aimed to fire at a selected location, doing splash damage to players or other siege weapons
    *Boiling Oil can be used to rain down liquid death from keeps and walls

Siege weapons must be built on Siege Pads found in the world or on Keeps. They cannot be deployed anywhere else and the number of siege weapons used is limited by the number of pads. Furthermore, siege weapons cannot be moved once placed, although they can be rotated.

Siege weapons do not require a Trade-skill to build and can be deployed by anyone. They are purchased from War Camps or from an NPC inside the keeps. Once purchased, a siege weapon will take up a single inventory space. These items have no weight, and can be carried and traded by anyone. Players can carry as many siege weapons as they want, as long as they have space in their inventory. When a player deploys a siege weapon, the item will disappear from the player?s inventory.

Siege weapons will increase in cost and power based on location/Tier purchased. (The exact cost of siege weaponry has yet to be determined.) A Siege weapon purchased in a higher Tier cannot be placed on a lower tier Siege Pad. Only one Siege Weapon can be on a pad at a time. Siege Weapons have a life span of 30 minutes and can be destroyed by the enemy before that time.


Siege Pads

Siege Pads are pre-set locations on which Siege Weapons can be deployed. They are physically represented in the world as large slabs of concrete, slate, or otherwise engraved pads.

Keeps will have one Siege Pad per destructible door for placing Rams (for the attackers) and several pads for Ballista, Cannons/Trebuchets, and Boiling Oil on the Bastions (for the defenders). The surrounding area of a keep will have 4-8 locations on the frontal arc of keep for Ballista or Cannons/Trebuchets, and 1-3 locations per side arc of a keep.

To place a siege weapon on a Siege Pad, players simply right click on the pad to open an interface window. This window will display the siege weapons available to the player to be placed on the pad. Only one person can interact with the Siege Pad at a time.

Players have the ability to destroy and repair Siege Pads to add another level of strategy and depth to the siege mechanic. Siege Pads can only be destroyed by Ballista, Cannon/Trebuchet fire, or special demolition charges purchased from War Camps or keeps. A destroyed Siege Pad cannot be used to deploy siege weapons as the ground is littered with wood planks and metal bits. Siege Pads have very few hit points but repair themselves after several minutes.


Siege Weapon Operation

Siege weapons are under the control of the player that built them and only one player can operate them at a time (except for rams). However, control can be relinquished leaving them open for another player to assume control.

A very simple UI element will be used for Siege Weapons utilizing a three click ?golf swing? meter. The more accurate your clicks on the meter, the more accurate your shots will be.


Rams

Rams are large siege engines used to batter down doors. Up to 4 players can be seated on a Ram at time and damage dealt is determined by the number of players present (one person does 25% damage, 3 people do 75% damage). Rams provide cover from attacks on high and player are shielded from 50% of all damage that rains down from above.

Empire Ram

Dark Elf Ram

Chaos Ram

Greenskin Ram


Ballistae (Direct Fire)

Ballistae are large bolt throwers used to skewer an enemy player or destroy siege weapons. They are mounted on rotating platforms on the Siege Pads to allow for precise aiming and inflict massive amounts of damage to a single target.





Catapults, Cannons, and Trebuchets (Indirect fire)

Catapults, Cannons, and Trebuchets use a combination of the three-click firing system and ground targeting to create an engaging siege mechanic reminiscent of the Warhammer table top game. They cannot shoot through solid structures such as buildings, roofs, or other man-made structures. As such, players inside a keep?s gatehouse or inner sanctum are immune to this splash damage.



Boiling Oil

Deploy, dump, and burn. Repeat until attackers are deep fried.

Age of conan is going to have 9 battle keeps that can be taken over by guilds and towers for smaller guilds. Their sieging system looks like a much improved version of what Shadowbane had. The PVP servers will be FFA everywhere but the major cities.

The actual PVP mechanics of conan appear to be ones where you've got to focus on combat, positioning, etc. So it doesn't appear to be the old /stick /assist /spam 1,2,3 repeat crap we see now.

Tutorial Videos

Basic Interface Overview

Combat Overview

City Building Overview

In Game Siege Footage

Official Siege Demo

[Signe]

I was going to post a simple link but then couldn't be arsed.  Waylander is a much nicer person than I am.  I am mentally mocking Darksign for not having the motivation to find that easy to find information himself.  I don't think he REALLY cares!

[Merusk]

Way runs a hardcore PvP guild. I imagine he cheated and just C&P stuff from the Elder's board discussing which game LotD is going to hop to next. 

I keed, I keeed.

[DarkSign]

I was going to post a simple link but then couldn't be arsed.  Waylander is a much nicer person than I am.  I am mentally mocking Darksign for not having the motivation to find that easy to find information himself.  I don't think he REALLY cares!

There's a difference between using a simple search function...and getting the opinion of people you respect about a comparison of the two. Perhaps it was my fault for not explaining explicitly that I wanted a comparative opinion - i.e. analysis of which is better.

I just assumed since you people always throw in your two cent's worth that I'd get it. Silly me. Y'all only read in the invisible when it helps you slag me in the politics forum.

[Signe]

I wasn't slagging you, I was teasing you and I thought you were just looking for info, not opinions.  NDA and all, you know?   Us people?  I don't read politics here.  It saves me from having to hate people.  My skin is too thin for that forum, anyway.  What hope do you have if yours is too thin for the MMO forum?   If you dislike being teased and prefer a good slagging off for no reason, I can do that, too.  Asshole.

[DarkSign]

Thanks! That's more what I'm used to.  Sorry. When I wrote the above post I was defending against other crap in the Politics forum and took things too seriously here 

[Signe]

People can start blabbing about the AoC PvP weekend event in about forty minutes, if they want.

There have been questions about if and how there will be an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) for the Gamespot PvP Beta Weekend. The facts are the following:

Yes there will be an NDA in place for the Gamespot PvP Weekend at first. The NDA will be lifted on Saturday, April 19th at 19:00 GMT (which is 15:00 EST and 12:00 California Time). After that time testers will be allowed to talk about their experiences in the PvP Weekend.

However, the NDA will still be in place for the General and Technical Beta of Age of Conan. So testers who are also a part of one or both of these phases of the beta will still be under NDA and will only be allowed to talk about their PvP Weekend experience.

It's important to know that even after the NDA will be lifted, testers will not be allowed to talk about anything that happened PRIOR to lifting the NDA but only about what their experiences are AFTER the NDA has been lifted. This means everything from Saturday, 19:00 GMT until the PvP Weekend ends on Sunday, 20:00 GMT.

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/show_msgs.php?topic_id=26348553

[HaemishM]

That is the most retarded NDA restriction I've ever heard, unless they plan on patching at 3 p.m. EST.

[DarkSign]

So basically you can only talk about the PvP weekend   

[Modern Angel]

But you can talk about that pvp weekend right now! 

[Paelos]

Did people actually play in the pvp weekend? I don't know anything about Conan's actual play.

[Typhon]

Ok, so give it up!  All hints and  -breaking near misses of divulgence seem to point to this being a train wreck of epic proportions, is that correct?  Are the only lamentations we are going to hear be those of the Failcom Community Relations People?

[Lantyssa]

Yes, please dish for the next day and a half you can.

[Driakos]

Yes, please dish for the next day and a half you can.

Yoda?

[Velorath]

Ok, so give it up!  All hints and  -breaking near misses of divulgence seem to point to this being a train wreck of epic proportions, is that correct?  Are the only lamentations we are going to hear be those of the Failcom Community Relations People?

Trainwreck of epic proportions to me is something along the lines of sb.exe, constant server problems, getting your credit card charged multiple times kinda stuff.  Things that make the game virtually unplayable in other words.  From what little time I've put into the PVP weekend so far, the game is playable (mind you I just built a new computer a few weeks back so people with older rigs might find otherwise), but unfinished and buggy.  I haven't tried any of the caster classes yet as that's completely the opposite of what I'd want out of a Conan game. 

I messed around with some pve stuff until lv. 5 and then tried out the pvp.  First capture the flag game I went into, I started off stuck in a wall, but didn't have too many problems after that other than some crippling lag at times.  There's not much compelling me to pick up the game at launch, aside from a lack of anything else to play around that time, but this is far from the worst MMO I've tried.

[Signe]

If your computer is fair to middlin', turn off shadows or you'll get lots of goofy glitches.  I'm not playing the PvP weekend, really, so I don't have lots to say.  I played one Capture the Flag game and it was pretty quick.  Combat doesn't seem lardy arsed, which is good because if the combat, either PvP or PvE, isn't great, you really don't want it to last too long.  This combat isn't great.  I was using a melee character but forget what.  I did the solo tutorial with a necromancer and had only one offensive spell and was able to kill nearly everything with one shot.  Some bosses it took the spell and a wee bit of smacking around to kill it.  I heard they screwed up rangers and they're totally over powered.  I haven't tried one, though.

PS  You can go topless, but you don't have any nipples.  It's creepy.  Not even too wee dots like my last avatar that someone reported as being NSFW.  DOTS ON A CARTOON CAT YOU FUCKING BABY GO FIND A JOB AT A GROWN UP COMPANY SUNSHINE.

Dammit.

[Venkman]

Thanks! That's more what I'm used to.  Sorry. When I wrote the above post I was defending against other crap in the Politics forum and took things too seriously here 

Yea, bad to be Politics forum posting. Only way I can do so nowadays is by not reading the names of people making the comments I prefer my magic circles.

[tmp]

Some fairly detailed Conan PvP weekend impressions. Not that much of info, but then they didn't get much to test.

http://www.keenandgraev.com/?p=982

[Typhon]

[...]Combat doesn't seem lardy arsed, which is good because if the combat, either PvP or PvE, isn't great, you really don't want it to last too long.  This combat isn't great.  [...]

Doh!  really the only thing that I thought might be breath of fresh air was the combat.  Is it "not great" in a way that after the novelty wears off it fades to "head in the oven if I have to do more Conan combat", or is it "not great" in a way that could be fun if they just tune/tweak it a bit?

[tmp]

Doh!  really the only thing that I thought might be breath of fresh air was the combat.  Is it "not great" in a way that after the novelty wears off it fades to "head in the oven if I have to do more Conan combat", or is it "not great" in a way that could be fun if they just tune/tweak it a bit?

Given that: a) there's no autoattack and you mash the buttons to take enemies down b) enemies are supposedly easy to kill and come in numbers c) there's no finesse required in said button mashing to get things done ... i'm guessing the "not great" aspect of combat can be similar to how the combat was in these beat'em up arcade "just keep going right" fighter games. I.e. while games itself were entertaining overall, the "combat system" in them just wasn't much to write home about?


leaked screenshot of AoC prototype

[Signe]

I don't mean to say the combat is awful, it's just not great.  But it's pretty quick and I like that.  I'm only commenting on the brief pvp event so when I say "it's not great" it's not a bad recommendation.  So far.  Who knows what will happen?  I don't know what to expect.  I'm hoping it's not boring... the little bit of it I played wasn't boring.  I think it could be fun after it's been cooked longer.  Only a month to launch which doesn't fill me with hope but I'm not ready to cancel my Drinking Cape yet.

I really liked the teeny weeny bit of PvE that in the teeny weeny sol0 tutorial.  It's all very simple and quick.  I'm kind of looking forward to actually playing the PvE game.  The PvP combat is so out of whack and unbalanced that I don't know what to say about it.  Some classes are really Really REALLY over-powered and others are whiny bitches.  My necro had a blast in PvE but in PvP she cried big fat girly emo tears.  Barbarian was good fun in PvP, but meh in PvE, though I think it still has potential.  I only did two PvP sessions but I could see how unbalanced all the classes were to each other, but not in a predictable or sensible way.  I have a bad feeling that once they sort that out, PvP might end up to be boring compared to the PvE, and I know you lot are looking for a good PvP game mostly.  You might have to look at WAR for that. Oh well.  It really wasn't enough of a test to judge much.  It looks to me that this game won't be done in a month but I'm terrible at guessing.  Maybe Righ or Haemish can give us an opinion, they're so much better at it.

The strange nippleless female characters disturb me.

PS  I wandered off in the middle of this post and tmp posted so I thought I'd add:  What he said.

[Nerf]

I don't see conan combat being any more head in the oven than any other game that requires you to hit certain combinations of hotkeys over and over again, if anything conan is LESS head in the oven because you *do* have to pay attention.

Yes, there are only 3 attacks, but mashing the same one over and over again will get you killed, NPCs have 3 "blocking" points, that they can assign to left/middle/right, and you can swing left/middle/right.  The AI doesnt seem all that adept at looking for patterns, but you can't just cycle l/m/r or spam a single key, you do have to pay attention.

Special attacks are executed by hitting your special attack hotkey, and then following up with a certain swing combo to execute it.  Lower level skills are usually 1 swing, some of the higher ones get a bit more elaborate, but it's a nice way to add the casting time/cooldown/etc balance to combat without "stare at your hotkeys until they arent grey" or "watch the timer bar get smaller".

No idea on mages, and I dont think theres a /lament emote yet, which is a deal-breaker for me.

[Xanthippe]

PS  You can go topless, but you don't have any nipples.  It's creepy.  Not even too wee dots like my last avatar that someone reported as being NSFW.  DOTS ON A CARTOON CAT YOU FUCKING BABY GO FIND A JOB AT A GROWN UP COMPANY SUNSHINE.

I liked your hello titty avatar!  My 9yo daughter liked it.  NSFW?  WTF?  What sort of place would a person work where that would be considered obscene?

[Signe]

PS  You can go topless, but you don't have any nipples.  It's creepy.  Not even too wee dots like my last avatar that someone reported as being NSFW.  DOTS ON A CARTOON CAT YOU FUCKING BABY GO FIND A JOB AT A GROWN UP COMPANY SUNSHINE.

I liked your hello titty avatar!  My 9yo daughter liked it.  NSFW?  WTF?  What sort of place would a person work where that would be considered obscene?

I don't know how anyone could have found it obscene either.  Maybe they work in a church?  PETA?

[squirrel]

PS  You can go topless, but you don't have any nipples.  It's creepy.  Not even too wee dots like my last avatar that someone reported as being NSFW.  DOTS ON A CARTOON CAT YOU FUCKING BABY GO FIND A JOB AT A GROWN UP COMPANY SUNSHINE.

I liked your hello titty avatar!  My 9yo daughter liked it.  NSFW?  WTF?  What sort of place would a person work where that would be considered obscene?

I don't know how anyone could have found it obscene either.  Maybe they work in a church?  PETA?

Well I hardly see how PETA could be concerned. I mean really - shouldn't they worry more about people who make cats wear shirts than the other way around?

[Typhon]

Thanks for the info Signe and Nerf (psst Signe, Nerf posted, not tmp!  Ooop! I told you out, I'm teh naughty!)

Another question about combat - it sounds like you are supposed to control your char with a gamepad, is that right?

[Signe]

Another question about combat - it sounds like you are supposed to control your char with a gamepad, is that right?

That would work and would probably be better.  I'm just not sure I could handle an MMO on a console.  I guess with voip, maybe.  I don't know.  When things get too fiddly for me, I tend to wander off.

[waylander]

Some fairly detailed Conan PvP weekend impressions. Not that much of info, but then they didn't get much to test.

http://www.keenandgraev.com/?p=982

This guy kept complaining about lag, but he was running a high resolution with a GF7950 video card. GF8's are considered mid range now.  There are people running this game on P4 single core 2.8 ghz, GF7600, and 2 gigs of ram who have no problems at all so long as they run it in a lower resolution and tweak their graphic quality settings.

The ranger video was LOL, but I hear that is due to the bow being a little OP atm instead of the class.

[SnakeCharmer]

Anybody with a programmable keyboard (a la a G15 - especially an older one with the 12 keys on the left) and mouse is going to wtfkerpwn people with it.

It makes combat which, to me is fun as hell without it, extraordinarilly easy.  Still fun though.

[Schazzwozzer]

Some fairly detailed Conan PvP weekend impressions. Not that much of info, but then they didn't get much to test.

http://www.keenandgraev.com/?p=982

Nice, thanks for linking those.  As somebody who knew very little about AoC, those videos helped me quickly get a handle on things.  Looks nice, and I'll definitely want to give it a whirl at some point.

The PvP of the two games sound awfully alike.  The main difference seems to be that WAR's PvP is all encapsulated within the Order vs Destruction metagame.  While I can understand what would be nice about not having the artificial pre-made teams, making it reliant on guilds makes it sound very catass-friendly to me.  Also, it's kind of interesting to note that WAR has 30 keeps per server and AoC has 9 (from what I've read).  I'm not making a value judgement though — for all I know, 30 may end up being far too many.

To contribute something to the original intent of this thread though, here are some really informative WAR vidcasts:

An overview of the Tier system
A more in-depth look at how the Tier system works and how victory is decided
An overview of the Keeps system

[tmp]

There are people running this game on P4 single core 2.8 ghz, GF7600, and 2 gigs of ram who have no problems at all so long as they run it in a lower resolution and tweak their graphic quality settings.

LCD screens, fixed video resolution or else things just look like ass. I think it's okay he points out that the game may hitch badly on machine that pretty much meets Funcom's own recommended hardware specs... gives people better idea what they can expect.

edit: he's got part 2 of the review up now, it tackles performance in lower resolution amongst other things.