WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[eldaec]

Nebu: you didn't answer my and Merusk's question about how people can grind out level 50 in DAoC in two days. This is corrollary to what I asked as well. What is the basis for comparison, because DAoC AOE grind groups does not equal WoW solo quest grinding.

DAoC had solo quest grinding, starting with shrouded isles which introduced it for the last bunch of levels, and working back down till catacombs made it available from start to finish.

WoW is prettier, and yes, much more fun in PvE, but both have the same fundamental design for soloers.

[Xanthippe]

WoW is prettier, and yes, much more fun in PvE, but both have the same fundamental design for soloers.

But one is fun and one is not.  They may have the same fundamental design for soloers, but I'll do one without complaint.

We are talking about games, things we play to amuse ourselves.  Not chores.

[Aez]

I hate quests.

For me, DAOC PvE was much funnier than the quest grind we've been getting since WoW.  Find a good spawn, stay there for 2 levels, change spawn.  It added the puller role that is missing since games switched to quest grinding(raid still get it).  It wasn't perfect.  Some time all the good spawn were taken and what little quest they had were absolutely terrible.

[eldaec]

WoW is prettier, and yes, much more fun in PvE, but both have the same fundamental design for soloers.

But one is fun and one is not.  They may have the same fundamental design for soloers, but I'll do one without complaint.

We are talking about games, things we play to amuse ourselves.  Not chores.

I don't disagree, though for me at least neither game's grind reached through the barrier to 'actual fun', as the quests in both games never really feel interactive. It's just clicking the word in brackets and killing trivial mobs. Oh, and running, always with the endless tiresome running.

Daoc had the benefit of novelty which saw me through to the actual game of RvR.


But the question Darniaq was asking, as I understood it, was whether you could level up quickly in daoc by questing the way you do in wow.

You can. It is just uglier.

I rather hope that future iterations will do more than taking WoWs approach of just adding production values. It's not that I dislike production values. I'm all in favour. But I rather hope the core mechanics get some love along the way, at least as much as they did in say CoX or EQ2.

I hate quests.

For me, DAOC PvE was much funnier than the quest grind we've been getting since WoW.  Find a good spawn, stay there for 2 levels, change spawn.

FWIW I hate both. Totally burned out on each.

The 'form a team, do an instance' model of CoX holds some hope for me.

Without the group I think you lose the variety that variation in team abilities gives, and without the instance you end up with the horrid horrid horrid mechanic of respawning bad guys. The instances need much more variety than CoX's budget could provide ofc.

I have no sympathy for soloing quests - too many tiresome fedex quests which boil down to running, clicking on the word in [brackets], and killing trivial mobs that will always remain trivial because the power level of a single player is too predictable.

And I *really* have no sympathy for respawning bad guys. The Pirate Trees knocked that right out of me years ago.

[Venkman]

Yea.

I still long for two things in stats-combat:

Where range isn't a hard number but rather diminishing returns after a number. 100 yard range should be 100% chance to hit before calculating dodge and whatnot. 120 yard range is 80, 140 is 50, etc.

Using terrain for more than just LOS. If I'm standing 30 feet above you, I should be able to arc an arrow for longer or increase the penetration power depending on angle.

And give melees shields they can call at whim.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Find a good spawn, stay there for 2 levels, change spawn.

You are what's wrong with video games, please stop.

[nurtsi]

http://www.dawnspire.com

Googlefu, or have you both played either of these? And if so, either of these worth checking out? I see D2 clickfests rather than actual MMOFPS. But that's before I've installed (which I can't do until later while being curious now )

It gets boring really fast. I think I played it for a week or so. It was about a year ago so I don't know if they've added stuff lately to it. It was free to check out though when I tried it. The game isn't really an MMO, more like a bunch of WoW battlegrounds.

[IainC]

The way I leveled alts in DAoC was to form a guild group and burn through a bunch of adventure wings. A lot of fun and great XP over item without requiring semi afk powerlevelling.

People who do PvE in the dullest way possible then complain that PVE isn't any fun don't get much sympathy from me.

[Schazzwozzer]

So, you guys talking about levelling, grinding, soloing, and questing... I wonder, what do you think of WAR's Public Quest system?

If you don't know what it is, here's an explanatory article, but the jist is that it's a system of area-specific, perpetually recurring PvE quests that players are fluidly allowed to jump in and out of, of their own volition.  So, imagine one PQ involves a friendly settlement being attacked by greenskins or whatever.  When the greenskins start attacking, everyone in the area sees on their screen, "Public Quest: Defend Settlement X from the Greenskins", and, if they want, can participate by going and helping defend.  Obviously, there are rewards.  If you get there, and all the other players are annoying asshats or whatever, you can leave and go do something else with no penalty or 'quest failure'.

The idea is that, because everyone in the area can participate, people are encouraged to work together and interact, rather than doing their loner solo thing. 

I know that the implementation will determine its effectiveness, but between this system and RvR quests and scenarios, I'm optimistic that Mythic is doing a lot to shake up the standard Diku levelling process.

[Sky]

We are talking about games, things we play to amuse ourselves.  Not chores.

HERETIC! BURN HER! 

The idea is that, because everyone in the area can participate, people are encouraged to work together and interact, rather than doing their loner solo thing. 

I think it sounds like a great idea.

The way I leveled alts in DAoC was to form a guild group and burn through a bunch of adventure wings. A lot of fun and great XP over item without requiring semi afk powerlevelling.

People who do PvE in the dullest way possible then complain that PVE isn't any fun don't get much sympathy from me.

I like adventure wings with Buffalo Sauce. But that last bit, that was my point earlier about developing for the LCD. That's apparently how most people want to play, and then complain if it's not that way.

[HRose]

So, you guys talking about levelling, grinding, soloing, and questing... I wonder, what do you think of WAR's Public Quest system?

That they existed in DAoC and were completely useless because of how they were designed.

It's nothing new. Those public quests should just be what directed PvP is, meaning that you have a precise flow. You can as well consider Alterac containing public quests. Quake Wars has public quests too.

If they are PvE massive grinds, then they are totally useless and already seen. If they are a way to set the flow of PvP, then they would be kind of implicit in the system.

It's like taking a Battleground, call it "scenario", and then pretend your game has something unique. Mythic has this habit of slapping new terms on standard concepts to pretend originality.

[Sky]

Hey, look. It's HRose.

[eldaec]

So, you guys talking about levelling, grinding, soloing, and questing... I wonder, what do you think of WAR's Public Quest system?

It really all depends on whether the process is more interactive and rewards decision making to any greater degree than non-public questing.

I like the idea of making them a shared public experience (using the MMOG nature for something), but it sounds like you each contribute on a group or indvidual level, if so the public bit is really just flavour and community building. Not that flavour and community building aren't important, but they won't make or break the mechanic.

The temporary world impacting nature of the quests might be more important.

[Venkman]

PQs are an interesting idea on paper. I'm not going to talk about their implementation. But as you can see from the public article, it's basically an outdoor instance that rewards XP, money/loot from normal drops, and Influence. Analogous to any PvE faction-based instance in WoW like Tempest Keep or Arc or whatever.

The article itself seems to point out that the major outcome of PQs is Influence game which in turn net better gear. I can't say whether this matters or not.

Hey, look. It's HRose.

Where you've been for the last few pages?

Hrose or Nebu: I am curious as I never experienced PQs in DAoC: how'd they work?

[Nebu]

I'll be happy to discuss it after you tell me what a PQ is. 

[Schazzwozzer]

That they existed in DAoC and were completely useless because of how they were designed.

It's nothing new. Those public quests should just be what directed PvP is, meaning that you have a precise flow. You can as well consider Alterac containing public quests. Quake Wars has public quests too.

If they are PvE massive grinds, then they are totally useless and already seen. If they are a way to set the flow of PvP, then they would be kind of implicit in the system.

What were they called in DAoC?  I unfortunately missed the boat on DAoC and can't find a decent wiki/knowledge base.

The difference between Alterac Valley's unified group goal and the PQs, though, is that with AV you're specifically entering an instanced area, to work as a team to accomplish a goal (that's the intent anyway).  With the PQ, by the sound of it, it's happening as you're running around the PvE areas, incidental to your normal comings and goings.

And even if they do end up massive PvE grinds, I still say it's a novel way to present PvE content.  It's like coaxing players into pick-up groups, but without necessarily making the quality of their experience reliant upon the other players (as would be the case if you joined a pickup group to tackle Karazhan or some WoW dungeon).

[Triforcer]

Is HRose the Blair of WAR?  Good times ahead 

[Nebu]

WHAT THE HELL IS A PQ? 

[Sky]

WHAT THE HELL IS A PQ? 

Dunno, but it doesn't sound good!

[HRose]

The difference between Alterac Valley's unified group goal and the PQs, though, is that with AV you're specifically entering an instanced area, to work as a team to accomplish a goal (that's the intent anyway).  With the PQ, by the sound of it, it's happening as you're running around the PvE areas, incidental to your normal comings and goings.

And even if they do end up massive PvE grinds, I still say it's a novel way to present PvE content.  It's like coaxing players into pick-up groups, but without necessarily making the quality of their experience reliant upon the other players (as would be the case if you joined a pickup group to tackle Karazhan or some WoW dungeon).

In fact I'm talking about the PvE side of public quests.

My impression is that they are zone-grinds that consequently trigger some funny scripting event. As I said the fun is to see it the first time, then you simply don't care. It works *now* because you never saw it, the concept seem cool. But just think after you have been there for months, and are grinding for the 100th times to that public quest. It doesn't seem to have any long term role in the game.

What Mythic is publicizing, so the community building and the glue between players, I don't think is gonna come from public quests. They work till they are new, you'll really see people collaborating. Then, a week later, everyone has already passed through it, it lost the novelty and the mechanic will become *completely* incidental. In the sense that no one really cares. It's like spawning Stitches in Duskwood, the first time it's cool, the second it's fun, then it just passes over your head.

I see it as a mechanic that will feel old quickly and that will then be ignored by the great majority of players.

[HRose]

Hrose or Nebu: I am curious as I never experienced PQs in DAoC: how'd they work?

In the same way you may guess.

Probably what was in DAoC was the skeleton of what will be in Warhammer, but this doesn't mean the concept is new.

The "public quests" in DAoC simply showed in your quest log and were Realm-wide tasks, like having to take a keep, opening Darkness Falls and so on. I don't remember exactly the details, but there where these general tasks about the RvR. This system was introduced along the group tasks, where you could go to a NPC with your group and get a task in RvR, like taking a tower, or killing x enemies, or something like that.

It was a good idea with a poor implementation, like most of DAoC design.

Quake Wars goes beyond this. Not only you get the "public quest", but you can also get secondary missions that depend on your class. That's the PvP model I believe has a lot of potential.

As long it's about PvP, and not massive PvE grinds. The concept of public quest can only work in PvP, where it's a very old concept and not at all Mythic's idea.

I also have the impression that the PvE side of public quests will be soon forgotten as it happened with WoW's PvP open world objectives. They just sit there in a barren world. They work till they have the novelty effect. When you saw the scripting happen already 100 times, you get bored and stick to your path. They sound as a one-time use type of thing that are going to waste all the effort it goes into developing them.

[Nebu]

Oh... PQ stands for "Public Quest"?  Thanks to the crazy Italian. 

They were pretty much worthless in DAoC and limited to keep takes or realm-based objectives.  Why worthless?  Because organizing 50-120 mouthbreathers to undergo a single objective was too much of a nightmare for any single individual to cope with. 

Objectives should be smaller in scale with perhaps a number of completed objectives all contributing to a larger victory condition.  This allows for combinations of varying tasks for interest and allowing smaller patrols to feel like they have a sizeable contribution to the whole. 

[Vinadil]

Also, a point to one of Hrose's arguments of the "new" wearing off.  This is only the case if you HAVE to run the public quest 100 times before you get to go to the "next" area.  This would be the case if the grind is VERY long, or if you constantly make Alts.  If the first is true, well then there is a different design problem at fault, not the PQ.  If the second, well you made an alt so you must enjoy the gameplay to some extent.

In my mind the PQ system is yet another way to pass the time through the content as you move up and enjoy the "other" part of the game... the RvR.  That seems to be their goal for the end-game, and while their may be PQs that are RvR driven, it seems the RvR design is not built around them as much as real-world PvP and instances/battlgrounds.

I have no idea how long it takes to move between their little staged areas, but if you only have to watch 5-10 of the same PQ (or if the rewards are good enough that you don't care how many you watch), then it might not be that big a deal.  In the end-game I cannot see PQs being a driving force for fun, but I don't see any down sides to it for the journey there.

[Aez]

Find a good spawn, stay there for 2 levels, change spawn.

You are what's wrong with video games, please stop.

Hehe, it's better than quest grind.  It's still shit.  I guess I should have expected it, discussing the color of shit and all.

[IainC]

Oh... PQ stands for "Public Quest"?  Thanks to the crazy Italian. 

They were pretty much worthless in DAoC and limited to keep takes or realm-based objectives.  Why worthless?  Because organizing 50-120 mouthbreathers to undergo a single objective was too much of a nightmare for any single individual to cope with. 

Objectives should be smaller in scale with perhaps a number of completed objectives all contributing to a larger victory condition.  This allows for combinations of varying tasks for interest and allowing smaller patrols to feel like they have a sizeable contribution to the whole. 

Public Quests in WAR are absolutely nothing like the realm missions in DAoC. There is a brief overview at TenTonHammer and a more recent explanation from Rowland Cox at Hexus.net.

[HRose]

Objectives should be smaller in scale with perhaps a number of completed objectives all contributing to a larger victory condition.  This allows for combinations of varying tasks for interest and allowing smaller patrols to feel like they have a sizeable contribution to the whole. 

As I said WoW also had this in the form of open world PvP objectives. You enter a zone and see UI elements that show some kind of mini-game between horde and alliance. And if you participate you get tokens to use with NPC vendors.

And we know how much players care about them.

Warhammer public quests should be at least a bit more elaborated, with multiple steps and different phases. It's a good idea to give a flow to PvP, especially if players can elaborate some strategy and if these quests are granular enough to not have just a linear, strictly defined progression.

You could imagine the Stitches encounter in Duskwood mixed with open world PvP objectives. That should give an idea.

[Nebu]

I was thinking something more like

a) One group must hold a pass that is the key path for reinforcements.

b) One group cuts supply lines.

c) One group takes and holds tower a

d) One group takes and holds tower b

These things open the keep gates which allow for the completion of the objective.  (i.e. HAVE FUN STORMING TEH CASTLE!)


Then the hard part is deciding how to reward the castle take while not punishing the losing side into oblivion. 

[HRose]

Public Quests in WAR are absolutely nothing like the realm missions in DAoC. There is a brief overview at TenTonHammer and a more recent explanation from Rowland Cox at Hexus.net.

I read the article and still can't see the difference in the PvP side of it.

On the PvE side they are massive grinds as already commented. Quoting:

These quests have huge goals that would be daunting for even an average group to accomplish in the time frame provided. This is where the word "Public" comes into play.

Then:

There's three different types of rewards. The first is experience

Ok.

The second type of reward is influence. Each chapter has an NPC that acts as the hub for that Public Quest. As you progress through the quest you'll be gaining influence with that NPC hub for your participation in that chapter. At the end of the quest, you can use your influence gained to get rewards from the NPC hub.

Aka reputation in WoW, as Darniaq commented.

The one part I don't understand is this:

Public Quests, much like the other quests in Warhammer, are broken up into chapters. However, there are no one shot Public Quests. You start off in one area and when you're finished with the quest there, you move on into the next area.

Does this mean that public quests are one-time and aren't repeatable? The rewards are fixed or are rolled randomly?

[WayAbvPar]

Is HRose the Blair of WAR?  Good times ahead 

OMG I had forgotten all about Blair. God he was amusing in a monkey flinging feces kind of way.

[HRose]

I was thinking something more like

a) One group much hold a pass that is the key path for reinforcements.

b) One group cuts supply lines.

c) One group takes and holds tower a

d) One group takes and holds tower b

These things open the keep gates which allow for the completion of the objective.  (i.e. HAVE FUN STORMING TEH CASTLE!)


Then the hard part is deciding how to reward the castle take while not punishing the losing side into oblivion. 

Yep, that exactly like Quake Wars works. With the difference that there are class-based secondary missions, that contribute to the overall task and reward you personally.

It's exactly the model I encourage and that gives the PvP a flow. It's also exactly the direction DAoC should have taken, instead of focusing on 8vs8 ganking groups, where the keeps warfare became just a flavor on the background.

P.S.
About what you say in the last line. I used theoretically this scripting system exactly to solve that problem. It's four years that I rant about THIS.

SINCE you have a dynamic scripting system to use in RvR, you ALSO have the possibility to adapt on the fly the task for a realm. This helps solving balance problems. If one realm dominates the other you don't give the weaker realm an equal mission (as it happens on DAoC). Instead you can dynamically adapt the task to be calibrated on the specific situation.

I use this example: lets say that there are 200 players sieging a keep. The keep defenders are 50 poor guys. The mission wouldn't be "conquer the keep" for attackers and "defend the keep" for defenders. Instead it would be dynamically adapted so that both defenders and attackers have equal chances. So, "conquer the keep" for attackers, and, maybe, "hold the keep for 15 minutes" for defenders.

Holding the keep for that amount of time would mean that the defenders "won" (and will be rewarded accordingly), even if they actually lost the keep.

My idea was exactly about this "asymmetric" kind of PvP.

[Triforcer]

One point that I don't think is getting through here very well is that for PQs, you don't have to group.  Sure, you may need a lot of people to actually finish the quest, but you can participate for part of it (purely randomly, say killing some of the required mobs during an xp grind) and still have a lottery shot at the good loot at the end.  That feature is what, for me, makes this intriguing.

[HRose]

One point that I don't think is getting through here very well is that for PQs, you don't have to group.  Sure, you may need a lot of people to actually finish the quest, but you can participate for part of it (purely randomly, say killing some of the required mobs during an xp grind) and still have a lottery shot at the good loot at the end.  That feature is what, for me, makes this intriguing.

From the articles it seems that only the first stages of these quests are soloable, then you have to join up for the later phases.

The question is what happens if the quest stalls. Does it sit there till someone finishes it, or does it reset back to its first stage?

The article also says that the more people participating, the worse the loot (as the quest is easier). So I wonder what happens when there aren't anymore hundreds of players in the starting zone. Is the quest even doable if you don't have the big numbers?

[schild]

You really, really, really don't have to respond to every post.

You look like the Mythic Stalker again.

[palmer_eldritch]

One point that I don't think is getting through here very well is that for PQs, you don't have to group.  Sure, you may need a lot of people to actually finish the quest, but you can participate for part of it (purely randomly, say killing some of the required mobs during an xp grind) and still have a lottery shot at the good loot at the end.  That feature is what, for me, makes this intriguing.

From the articles it seems that only the first stages of these quests are soloable, then you have to join up for the later phases.

The question is what happens if the quest stalls. Does it sit there till someone finishes it, or does it reset back to its first stage?

The article also says that the more people participating, the worse the loot (as the quest is easier). So I wonder what happens when there aren't anymore hundreds of players in the starting zone. Is the quest even doable if you don't have the big numbers?

Yeah, but joining up means running over to the monster someone else is hitting and hitting it too, as far as I can see. No need to group or do anything complicated.

[HRose]

I reply to those parts that interest me.

For example I didn't comment the discussion going on about spawn camping and levelling times.

It may be about Mythic or not, but I always enjoy discussing the PvP aspects of game design, and continue to post till the discussion goes on and new themes are introduced. So every time these aspects come up, I come back to comment. Whether it is Mythic or not.

I actually wish there was something for PvP on the horizon beside Mythic. I'd definitely like to ignore them ;)

But as long they are the only ones doing PvP...