WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[HaemishM]

Keep Lords. Really? That's the best mechanic you can come up with for capturing a keep? Something you already did in DAoC?

This thing better be a damn fun play experience in the first 30 minutes, because it's starting to look a lot like another game I already gave up on twice.

[Hoax]

[...]
Examples:
 Hard as Nails I – Increases your Toughness by 3, costs 1 Renown point 
 Hard as Nails V – Increases your Toughness by 42, costs 14 Renown points 

Good to see they've learned from the past, so that after awhile those that are playing aren't so overwhelmingly more powerful then those that are joining new that the new players can never catch up...

For serious, Mythic is really not making a single call that makes me take notice and think "wow I really respect that and think it could be damn cool".  Reskinned DAOC that pretends its learned from WoW when instead its just copying the shit I didn't really like about WoW?  No fucking thanks.

[Draegan]

Wait till the NDA is lifted. 

[eldaec]

Wait till the NDA is lifted.   

omg, flashback.

 

[Simond]

omg, flashback 

Anyway, from the latest newsletter:

Q: Will there be a mechanic in place to prevent other players from 'stealing' our siege weapons?

A: When you deploy a siege weapon, you are automatically the one who controls it. If another player tries to take it over they'll get a big fat "no not yours" message until you relinquish control of the weapon.

Anybody spot the minor flaw in this that will get exploited within about five seconds?

[Mrbloodworth]

omg, flashback 

Anyway, from the latest newsletter:

Q: Will there be a mechanic in place to prevent other players from 'stealing' our siege weapons?

A: When you deploy a siege weapon, you are automatically the one who controls it. If another player tries to take it over they'll get a big fat "no not yours" message until you relinquish control of the weapon.

Anybody spot the minor flaw in this that will get exploited within about five seconds?

Nope.



Also, on stealth. What classes from the original game had any form of stealth?

[tmp]

If WAR has stealth, then I'll be playing a true stealth class... the kind that doesn't pay for a box or for the monthly fee.  Initiative is too hard to balance in games.  I really hope that they don't cave on this one.

From what i understand they couldn't think of another way to allow melee actually get within range to smack the casters before said caster would rape the melee three different ways with range, damage and knock backs advantage. Amusingly enough they're about to increase said knock backs further at the same time, though.

[tazelbain]

Guild Wars solved that with short range teleportation.  Preforms the same function, but doesn't give the same invulnerably or initiative advantage.

[Nevermore]

Limitations on CC and dash/sprints for the melee classes seemed to work pretty well in Guild Wars as well.

[Fordel]

Guild Wars did so many things right in terms of MMO-PvP combat. I'm surprised more games haven't ripped their mechanics yet.

[tmp]

Reading some more it sounds like some classes are given the stealth while others are given sprint of sorts as counter to casters. In which case not sure why they'd change their original intention and put the stealth for some classes rather than give the sprint to all, but whatever.

[Aez]

If WAR has stealth, then I'll be playing a true stealth class... the kind that doesn't pay for a box or for the monthly fee.  Initiative is too hard to balance in games.  I really hope that they don't cave on this one.

From what i understand they couldn't think of another way to allow melee actually get within range to smack the casters before said caster would rape the melee three different ways with range, damage and knock backs advantage. Amusingly enough they're about to increase said knock backs further at the same time, though.

It's smelling like meh.

[cmlancas]

Was a charge ability like in WoW too difficult to program? 

[eldaec]

omg, flashback 

Anyway, from the latest newsletter:

Q: Will there be a mechanic in place to prevent other players from 'stealing' our siege weapons?

A: When you deploy a siege weapon, you are automatically the one who controls it. If another player tries to take it over they'll get a big fat "no not yours" message until you relinquish control of the weapon.

Anybody spot the minor flaw in this that will get exploited within about five seconds?

Nope.

Scroll up and read about siege pads again.

stealth

Given the source of this 'rumour' appears to be half an out of context sentence on a video blog from Paul "I-know-nothing-about-mechanics" Barnett, set against Mythic laying down 'no stealth' as a rule from the start, I have my doubts about this.

What's more, the class structure doesn't really have space for stealth classes anyhow.

That said, fixing stealth in MMOGs never really seemed that difficult anyway. You do it like this.

Was a charge ability like in WoW too difficult to program?

Or like in daoc.

[Johny Cee]

Limitations on CC and dash/sprints for the melee classes seemed to work pretty well in Guild Wars as well.

They worked pretty well in DAoC,  after two or three years of tuning and balancing.

Was a charge ability like in WoW too difficult to program? 

You mean the charge ability WoW stole from DAoC?



Mythic made shittons of mistakes with DAoC,  and will probably make a shitton more with this, but....  seriously,  people are beating it up for things that Mythic did at least half right the first time?  At least well enough that other games (WoW, GW, etc) liberally borrowed?

[cmlancas]

Shit, I didn't know I was in the fanboi thread -- forgive the guy who didn't play DAOC.

><

[tmp]

Given the source of this 'rumour' appears to be half an out of context sentence on a video blog from Paul "I-know-nothing-about-mechanics" Barnett, set against Mythic laying down 'no stealth' as a rule from the start, I have my doubts about this.

What's more, the class structure doesn't really have space for stealth classes anyhow.

Haven't seen the video blog; the stealth was mentioned in WAR thread over at fohguild forums (and currently it's being discussed there) ... the original mention appears to be copy & paste directly from Mythic announcement and specifically lists classes given the stealth (witch elf/witch hunter)

[fuser]

Just wondering how many other people are updating their dxdiag.txt with any slight change to their system   

[Calantus]

Was a charge ability like in WoW too difficult to program? 

You mean the charge ability WoW stole from DAoC?

You mean the charge ability Blizzard's Diablo 2 had even before then?

[Xanthippe]

I hope it is DAOC v.2 - because that's what I want to play.







As long as there's no ToA expansion this time!

[eldaec]

Was a charge ability like in WoW too difficult to program? 

You mean the charge ability WoW stole from DAoC?

You mean the charge ability Blizzard's Diablo 2 had even before then?

You mean...

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

Movement During a Charge

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks

A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge

Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

Do I win?

[eldaec]

I hope it is DAOC v.2 - because that's what I want to play.

As long as there's no ToA expansion this time!

What he said.

Everything that has been disappointing about WAR so far is where they've chosen not to implement daoc features and replaced them with weak sauce that bears more than a little resemblence to WoW.

It's not even as if the watering down is in features that are only relevant to hardcore players. It's looks like change for its own sake.

Oh, and GOA. Contracting Europe out to GOA again is a monumentally disappointing decision for reasons that will be obvious anyone who played EU daoc.

[Nevermore]

I hope it is DAOC v.2 - because that's what I want to play.

That implies that DAoC 2.0 will improve upon DAoC 1.0.  If they were to add stealth back in, it would not be an improvement.

[eldaec]

If they were to add stealth back in, it would not be an improvement.

I kind of agree, but only because of the whining it causes.

Stealth and wall climbing worked pretty well in sieges, and it doesn't seem hard to improve balance through short duration stealth or stealth!=invisibility.

Also, I never really saw what the fuss was about anyway. Admittedly that might be because I was usually a cleric, and so shit loads of HP, and/or BoF, and/or cleric pets would make stealthers irrelevant to me.

[Typhon]

If they were to add stealth back in, it would not be an improvement.

I kind of agree, but only because of the whining it causes.

Stealth and wall climbing worked pretty well in sieges, and it doesn't seem hard to improve balance through short duration stealth or stealth!=invisibility.

Also, I never really saw what the fuss was about anyway. Admittedly that might be because I was usually a cleric, and so shit loads of HP, and/or BoF, and/or cleric pets would make stealthers irrelevant to me.

Whining + wasted cycles balancing something which is inherently unbalancable + lack of a reason for stealth to exist in a game about warfare + gigantic failure of EVERY FUCKING IMPLEMENTATION OF STEALTH TO DATE BY DEVELOPMENT TEAMS WHO THINK THAT STEALTH (INITIATIVE) + MASSIVE DAMAGE BURST AND/OR STUN LOCK MAKES SENSE means that I just don't want to see stealth in MMO games until they implement a Thief-like sub-game (where the Theif is weak, but stealthy, and they make their living/progression based upon how good they are at being stealthy, rather then how well they choose victims to gank.

[Nebu]

Stealth exists in games because it attracts players.  More players = more $$$.  Game balance is only a concern if it drives down the bottom line.

Were it up to me, I'd remove stealth from every game with a pvp component.  Allowing players to pick and choose encounters is inherently unbalancing. 

[Nevermore]

Stealth exists in games because it attracts players.  More players = more $$$.  Game balance is only a concern if it drives down the bottom line.

Were it up to me, I'd remove stealth from every game with a pvp component.  Allowing players to pick and choose encounters is inherently unbalancing. 

Can you really say it's a net increase in players, though?  Sure there are some who'll play your game specifically because of stealth classes, but how many players are driven away?  Two of the four level 50 characters I had in DAoC were stealth characters (Minstral and Ranger) so I'm pretty familiar with both perspectives.  In my opinion, putting in stealth in the hope that you'll get a net increase in subscribers is not worth the balancing nightmare you'll subject yourself to.  What will end up happening is either 1) the stealthers will quit because they don't feel they're effective enough or 2) other players will quit because they feel that stealthers are too effective.  WoW gets away with Rogues because the people who would otherwise quit are too addicted to their PvE crack to actually go through with it.  Even so, people still scream bloody murder.

[Mrbloodworth]

Are there any classes or units in the original game that has "Stealth"?

[Nebu]

Can you really say it's a net increase in players, though?  Sure there are some who'll play your game specifically because of stealth classes, but how many players are driven away?  Two of the four level 50 characters I had in DAoC were stealth characters (Minstral and Ranger) so I'm pretty familiar with both perspectives.  In my opinion, putting in stealth in the hope that you'll get a net increase in subscribers is not worth the balancing nightmare you'll subject yourself to.  What will end up happening is either 1) the stealthers will quit because they don't feel they're effective enough or 2) other players will quit because they feel that stealthers are too effective.  WoW gets away with Rogues because the people who would otherwise quit are too addicted to their PvE crack to actually go through with it.  Even so, people still scream bloody murder.

Well... this leaves two possibilities:

a) Blizzard believed that they really could balance stealth or

b) Blizzard added stealth classes to attract players that would quickly become addicts.  

I think having stealth makes MMO's more attractive.  People like playing the sneaky assassin, especially when they can WTFPWN anyone that crosses their path.  Ultimately these games are a business and their business is to make bank.  If stealth classes attract and retain more players than they drive off, that's a coup.

[Signe]

Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning

The release date for this product has changed:

New Release Date: September 2, 2008

Please Note: This date is our best estimate based on the information available, and the date is subject to change at any
time. In our efforts to keep you informed, we are in constant communication with our vendors, and we are committed to
providing you with the most accurate release dates possible.

oopsie.  I don't know where the rest of the email went but it's from GameStop.

[HaemishM]

Are there any classes or units in the original game that has "Stealth"?

In Warhammer? There were a few last I played, but it wasn't really "stealth" per se. Skaven Assasins and some other scout type classes could begin the game hidden in cover. Say a unit of Wood elf archers could start hidden in a piece of wood and wouldn't be deployed on the board until they moved or fired. The Skaven assassin Snitch could do the same thing, anywhere on the board outside of line of sight. I don't know about the RPG, but the amount of stealth characters in the tabletop game was minimal.

[eldaec]

wasted cycles balancing something which is inherently unbalancable

20 second duration. 40 second cooldown. No from-stealth crit strikes and no from-stealth cc-effects. But as a bonus stealth switches off your collision detection so you can get past the front line.

Possibly switching invisibility for 'you look like someone on the other team' if you want to be *really* clever about it.

OMG I R A DEZIGN GOD.

Stealth isn't stupid, limitless invisibility + crit strikes + stun strikes is stupid if a reasonable number of other classes don't have a way to deal with it.

[Mrbloodworth]

Are there any classes or units in the original game that has "Stealth"?

In Warhammer? There were a few last I played, but it wasn't really "stealth" per se. Skaven Assasins and some other scout type classes could begin the game hidden in cover. Say a unit of Wood elf archers could start hidden in a piece of wood and wouldn't be deployed on the board until they moved or fired. The Skaven assassin Snitch could do the same thing, anywhere on the board outside of line of sight. I don't know about the RPG, but the amount of stealth characters in the tabletop game was minimal.

Yeah, thats why i brought it up. So, essentially, they are making this up now. What class is getting it?

[eldaec]

Are there any classes or units in the original game that has "Stealth"?

In Warhammer? There were a few last I played, but it wasn't really "stealth" per se. Skaven Assasins and some other scout type classes could begin the game hidden in cover. Say a unit of Wood elf archers could start hidden in a piece of wood and wouldn't be deployed on the board until they moved or fired. The Skaven assassin Snitch could do the same thing, anywhere on the board outside of line of sight. I don't know about the RPG, but the amount of stealth characters in the tabletop game was minimal.

Yeah, thats why i brought it up. So, essentially, they are making this up now. What class is getting it?

Witch elf, Witch hunter. Anything with Witches in it.

[Triforcer]

Stealth ranged class for the Alliance (er, Order)?  Brilliant.  Ask blizzard how well invisiblepyroblast mages worked in beta.