WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Draegan]

 

[AngryGumball]

ROFL!!! *approve*

[Modern Angel]

Did anybody actually listen to the disclaimer in the beginning of the video? This isn't even intended to show anything near a "real" RvR battle, it's rather a tech-preview.

I heard it, I just didn't care. If combat is not ready then don't show it and say, "Oh, this isn't actually combat." YES IT IS. It's dudes hitting each other with swords and spells flying through the air. But it was creaky animations while people autoattacked in a perfectly stationary position.  It's combat, okay? And if you want to show something off then for fuck's sake do something better than... whatever that was supposed to be.

[Merusk]

Quote from the vid:

"It's about one minute of super-cool stuff from our game with people bashing each other. It's not video footage of an RvR fight because then they'd all be throwing spells and jumping around like lunatics.  What it is, is a minute's worth of Glory. "

I agree, it's not very glorious. It's meh.. it IS just people standing around bashing each other.  I don't get the Glory or the 'super cool stuff.'  Perhaps it's just meant to show off the models and animations, but it's not doing that very well.

The game is suffering from a lack of focused presentation of it's merits. They're scraping together crap to throw out every month just to have something out there.  Previously I was happy they were doing this, but now they seem to have gone the AoC route of "here's some random crap because we're too busy/ things are in too much flux/ too messed-up to actually do something more focused and detailed."  It isn't instilling confidence.

[Zetor]

Yup. It'd help if the last podcast wasn't full of injokes and stream-of-consciousness rambling about how the new systems are 'so cool'. Dood, I don't care what's in the CE box, I want to see the gameplay [which should be getting finalized at this point, yesssss?].


-- Z.

[AcidCat]

Yup. It'd help if the last podcast wasn't full of injokes and stream-of-consciousness rambling about how the new systems are 'so cool'. Dood, I don't care what's in the CE box, I want to see the gameplay [which should be getting finalized at this point, yesssss?].


-- Z.

They don't want to show you too much of the gameplay, then you might realize it's the same MMORPG you've played time and again. So they focus on the BUT ITZ WARHAMMER NOW WAAAARGH! angle.

[Johny Cee]

Yup. It'd help if the last podcast wasn't full of injokes and stream-of-consciousness rambling about how the new systems are 'so cool'. Dood, I don't care what's in the CE box, I want to see the gameplay [which should be getting finalized at this point, yesssss?].


-- Z.

They don't want to show you too much of the gameplay, then you might realize it's the same MMORPG you've played time and again. So they focus on the BUT ITZ WARHAMMER NOW WAAAARGH! angle.

?

Same is true of most games.

I played quite a bit of TF2 this year.  It's pretty much the same gameplay mechanics as the leaked Marathon beta multiplayer back in '94.  Right down to aiming at players feet with the rocket launcher to catch them with the splash damage, and fucking rocket jumping.

RTSes are pretty much the same as WC on Kali. 

Let's not even talk about chess.

[AcidCat]

Of course you have a point. People looking for the same thing in a new package may very well be quite happy with Warhammer.

[Johny Cee]

I mean,  I'm not against getting rid of the worst parts of MMO combat or mixing it up a bit,  just like I'm glad that devs are switching up FPSes to cut down on awful gameplay like bunnyhopping,  or fix RTSes so it's not just memorized build queues.

Too often I see the complaint about MMO combat turn on the individual complaining wants to change it into carbon copy FPS combat, which I think defeats the whole purpose.

[eldaec]

Of course you have a point. People looking for the same thing in a new package may very well be quite happy with Warhammer.

Thing is, it isn't really the same thing. However impercepterbly, execution improves. Even if in the case of MMOGs, people keep going out of thier way to unlearn or ignore the lessons of games like DAoC, CoH, and EQ2.

[slog]

Did anybody actually listen to the disclaimer in the beginning of the video? This isn't even intended to show anything near a "real" RvR battle, it's rather a tech-preview.

I heard it, I just didn't care. If combat is not ready then don't show it and say, "Oh, this isn't actually combat." YES IT IS. It's dudes hitting each other with swords and spells flying through the air. But it was creaky animations while people autoattacked in a perfectly stationary position.  It's combat, okay? And if you want to show something off then for fuck's sake do something better than... whatever that was supposed to be.

Taking it a step further, what does it say about their product?  Are they so desperate to show some sign of progress that they release media that's not ready for prime time?

[Venkman]

The only thing I got from that video was the sense of more-of-the-same. Heck, just for a quick i-love-MMOs thing I hacked together years ago in Final Cut I was using largely the same footage from DAoC. In fact, this video makes WAR looks like DAoC overall (flat ground textures, little foliage, over-the-top spell effects trying to be semi-realistic [unlike WoW], etc).

Which is a shame because, err,

[tmp]

Taking it a step further, what does it say about their product?  Are they so desperate to show some sign of progress that they release media that's not ready for prime time?

Nah it seems pretty common with the MMO 'epic fights' video. Most of them have people standing still and hitting their skill hotkeys. Not sure why but it seems pretty widespread.

[eldaec]

RvR keep info:
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameFeatures/keepsandsiege.php

If you played daoc, then you'll recognise this as NF keeps, but without towers or the supply chain system. If you didn't play daoc it is just meaningless blurb with a few screenshots.



For Guild Wars fans, sport PvP examples:
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/gameInfo/gameFeatures/Scenarios101_2.php


Also, info on 'Reknown':
http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/behindTheScenes/developmentDiaries/RenownSystem.php

...but you don't need to read it. Reknown is Realm Points. Or if you're still playing EQ, Reknown is AA abilities earnt from RvR and Sport PvP xp.

[Nevermore]

Are they still pretending this isn't DAoC 2?

[Merusk]

Are they still pretending this isn't DAoC 2?

Yes, now hush and imagine with us. 

[Rondaror]

Are they still pretending this isn't DAoC 2?

PvP Instances like WoW make up for the difference.

[tazelbain]

Keeps:  Copy and fucking paste.  And still with the door bashing.

Also a bit underwhelmed by the Scenerios.

[eldaec]

Keeps:  Copy and fucking paste.  And still with the door bashing.

Also a bit underwhelmed by the Scenerios.

I'm a bit underwhelmed by the keeps, I have no idea why they wouldn't implement towers (which would allow groups to support the zerg without actually running with it, and allow you to skip door bashing if it isn't your thing, and you also don't want to use a ranged weapon, heal, block reinforcements, scale the walls, or operate siege weaponry) - but they have instead stuck with the 'tag objectives' that seemed to fail in early beta, supply lines I would also miss, but the fundamental problems in WAR realm design make them irrelevant anyway.


Scenarios were exactly as I expected, but I'm interested in what you were hoping for? In practice it looks very similar to other sport pvp concepts? Do any other sport pvp games layer anything else on your basic small arena with objective based gameplay?



EDIT: Siege pads, wtf? why? What was wrong with being able to put down catapults wherever the hell you want?

This isn't daoc2, seems more like daoc0.9 in RvR terms.

[Mrbloodworth]

Some of that concept work is fantastic.

[tazelbain]

Scenarios were exactly as I expected, but I'm interested in what you were hoping for? In practice it looks very similar to other sport pvp concepts? Do any other sport pvp games layer anything else on your basic small arena with objective based gameplay?

More depth.  More of an epic feel.  But we still have haven't seen the any 4th teir Scenerios yet, and it would make sense that they would place the more challenging ones there.

It still seems old that 3rd teir Scenerios includes all of the fourth teir 4th players.

[Rondaror]

Keeps:  Copy and fucking paste.  And still with the door bashing.

Also a bit underwhelmed by the Scenerios.

I'm a bit underwhelmed by the keeps, I have no idea why they wouldn't implement towers (which would allow groups to support the zerg without actually running with it, and allow you to skip door bashing if it isn't your thing, and you also don't want to use a ranged weapon, heal, block reinforcements, scale the walls, or operate siege weaponry) - but they have instead stuck with the 'tag objectives' that seemed to fail in early beta, supply lines I would also miss, but the fundamental problems in WAR realm design make them irrelevant anyway.


EDIT: Siege pads, wtf? why? What was wrong with being able to put down catapults wherever the hell you want?

This isn't daoc2, seems more like daoc0.9 in RvR terms.

Me too. Long standoffs on keeps gives melee classes nothing to do.......oh they could use siege weapons  

[Typhon]

[...]

As a reward for participating in RvR, characters will receive one Renown point per Renown rank reached . These Renown points can be used to purchase special character advancement rewards from your trainer. These rewards are primarily focused on improving your character’s RvR capabilities
[...]

Examples:
 Hard as Nails I – Increases your Toughness by 3, costs 1 Renown point 
 Hard as Nails V – Increases your Toughness by 42, costs 14 Renown points 

Good to see they've learned from the past, so that after awhile those that are playing aren't so overwhelmingly more powerful then those that are joining new that the new players can never catch up...

[Draegan]

Ranks might be capped so it might just be a PVP level that you have to grind out.  I have no idea.

[tmp]

[...]
Examples:
 Hard as Nails I – Increases your Toughness by 3, costs 1 Renown point 
 Hard as Nails V – Increases your Toughness by 42, costs 14 Renown points 

Good to see they've learned from the past, so that after awhile those that are playing aren't so overwhelmingly more powerful then those that are joining new that the new players can never catch up...

The advancement itself looks linear, could be worse. It's also hard to tell how much impact that has without knowing the base stats -- e.g. that 42 toughness wouldn't do much difference if toughness of character without rank whatsoever is say, 400...

edit: btw, LotRO already uses 'renown', someone better tell WAR devs so they can go back to thesaurus diving.

[eldaec]

I imagine it will be like daoc, where a few abilities become significant because they are more powerful than Mythi cexpect, but the rest are lost in the noise of gear stats and core abilities.

Plus, like all these games, the amount of practice and organsiation your team has had will massively outweigh +20 toughness. It always does.

[WayAbvPar]

Sure am enjoying the beta for this. And then I wake up and realize we still haven't been invited yet. 

[Merusk]

Don't think I'd hold my breath on that, either.

[Simond]

Apparently EA have changed their mind and are implementing stealth for certain classes after all.

[Mrbloodworth]

Apparently EA have changed their mind and are implementing stealth for certain classes after all.

I thought every class had stealth. It just wasn't turning your toon transparent.

[Draegan]

Apparently EA have changed their mind and are implementing stealth for certain classes after all.

I thought every class had stealth. It just wasn't turning your toon transparent.

That's AOC.

[Mrbloodworth]

Apparently EA have changed their mind and are implementing stealth for certain classes after all.

I thought every class had stealth. It just wasn't turning your toon transparent.

That's AOC.

Woops. My bad.

[Nebu]

If WAR has stealth, then I'll be playing a true stealth class... the kind that doesn't pay for a box or for the monthly fee.  Initiative is too hard to balance in games.  I really hope that they don't cave on this one.

[Nevermore]

Apparently EA have changed their mind and are implementing stealth for certain classes after all.

Is that to simulate the part of the table-top game where you add a bunch of army dudes to your own side when the other guy has his back turned?  Or is Mythic just a bunch of retarded masochists?  I know, they should also give the stealth classes an attack that does enough damage to take away 95% of the target's hit points!  That'll be fun! 

[tazelbain]

Ooooo the first chink in the "EA isn't going to rape us" Armor.  If they are going add invisibilty, it should be a power-up deep in RvR and in select scenerios.  Having classes built on asymetical abilities total fucks the balance.

Edit: With a good quote, this is worth it's own thread.