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Author Topic: WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP  (Read 496047 times)
tmp
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Reply #1085 on: April 21, 2008, 12:32:50 PM

It's actually weird that their engine forces them to do this double work and double textures without a lighting system that does it on its own.
Custom light maps allow for much better quality lighting, since it can be calculated by non-realitme renderers like Maya or Lightwave and take into account stuff like rays bouncing off the nearby items and such. As example consider Max Payne which iirc was one of first games to push the pre-rendered lighting quality to such levels.

Guess just need to wait some more for the game to show off its full visual glory then  smiley
Miasma
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Reply #1086 on: April 21, 2008, 12:52:11 PM

Why bother, in an open PvP game with hundreds of people fighting in the same area you're going to have to turn all that off no matter how bleeding edge your computer is anyways.
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Reply #1087 on: April 21, 2008, 01:14:14 PM

Can you point to the part of the doll where Mythic touched you? Or, alternatively, you could STFU. It is seriously getting old.
In the targeting circle.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1088 on: April 21, 2008, 01:14:28 PM

To me there's no such thing as 'max' setting for graphics. You have intended graphics and you have turned down graphics.  I want to know if WAR is a game my machine can run the way it is supposed to look and the way it is supposed to be played(rvr) without dropping another $500 or more into my machine. 

To me this is going to be the biggest hurdle for mythic, it's not about how good your game looks in the developers lab or on paper, it's how good will t look to the majority of people who see the pretty screens on the box and buy it.  How well will RvR look to all the people playing it?  If I want to see 40 people waging war am I going to turn my graphics down to < ass? 

People(pc game designers) need to really get it beaten into their skulls that you cannot make games for systems people do not have or will at some point have.  Console designers aren't making games that will run on the PS5 because no one would be able to play them and even then the PS3 has a still comparatively sparse library because I promise you no one is beating down doors to put titles on a system that is still not nearly as widespread. I want WAR to succeed, I'm going to play it but I feel like there are certain lessons not being learned here.

Are people seeing the success of wow and saying "let's do that, only our way"? I see people copying things like UI, or interfaces and thinking because wow took the best technical elements of other games, that is what made it popular. That's a part of it probably but design philosophy is the key to it all. 

My question to Mark or anyone at mythic is, what kind of specs are required to run the game, as it stands on highest(intended) graphics and enjoy a 20vs20 battle with more then 15fps.  If that's a hard or difficult question, it shouldn't be.

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Reply #1089 on: April 21, 2008, 03:38:39 PM

So here's something that may stir things up.  It recently became evident that there's some manner of auto-facing function in WAR.  It can be seen most clearly near the end of this video, in which a Zealot takes on a spazzy Swordmaster or this video, in which a Chosen takes on a Bright Wizard.  I'm not sure that anybody knows the real details yet, but it appears to only lock on when you're using a special ability. 

Of course, there are a number of people on WHA complaining that this removes all skill from combat and a number of others countering that WAR is not and should not be a twitch game.  I've read that this function was in DAoC, which may suggest this is a tried-and-true part of the game Mythic wants to make.

Thoughts? 
Ratman_tf
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Reply #1090 on: April 21, 2008, 03:44:14 PM

Of course, there are a number of people on WHA complaining that this removes all skill from combat and a number of others countering that WAR is not and should not be a twitch game.  I've read that this function was in DAoC, which may suggest this is a tried-and-true part of the game Mythic wants to make.

Thoughts? 

/stick and /face
Saved my ass from graphics chop and internet latency many times in a close fight.



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Reply #1091 on: April 21, 2008, 04:23:07 PM

/stick and /face
Saved my ass from graphics chop and internet latency many times in a close fight.

I LOVED people that used /stick and /face in combat.  I could use them to my advantage to get many runthrough back stuns. 

They're a crutch that is easily used against the person employing them.  I hope that /stick and /face vanish from all pvp games.

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-  Mark Twain
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Reply #1092 on: April 21, 2008, 04:41:11 PM

My preference goes for less twitch combat, but without commands.

I'd just give a hit penalty to all those players jumping around and running.

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Reply #1093 on: April 21, 2008, 06:52:52 PM

complaining that this removes all skill from combat and a number of others countering that WAR is not and should not be a twitch game.  I've read that this function was in DAoC, which may suggest this is a tried-and-true part of the game Mythic wants to make.

Thoughts? 

MMOs do better as they become twitchy-er. Combat, which makes up a large component of most MMOs, has to be involving and engaging, which generally doesn't happen if you hit auto-attack and then watch what happens.

Turning to face your opponent isn't a skill, either.

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Reply #1094 on: April 21, 2008, 07:20:47 PM

Twitch appeals to a subset of all MMO players.  That's the subset with the twitch skill.   It ignores those of us with arthritis, single hands, slow reflexes or parapalegics who can partake in Diku-esque combat just fine.

While there's certainly room for a twitch MMO, if it were to be the center of all combats I think you'd see a lot less interest in the games in general.

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Reply #1095 on: April 21, 2008, 09:41:10 PM

Ah, if we're going to compare desired combat mechanics... circlestrafing and bunnyhopping annoys the shit out of me. It turns combat into a spazfest. I prefer tactical choices, like using teh fire against teh ice monster. Whatever.

FPSes (and the like) I can play, but it gets frustrating to hit the limit of your reflexes and realize that you're done and the game goes in the closet, cause you aint' gettin any faster than little Jimmy who's hyped up on pixie stix and Mt. Dew.



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Reply #1096 on: April 21, 2008, 11:58:23 PM

/stick and /face are for people who can't cope with actual combat in MMOGs.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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Reply #1097 on: April 22, 2008, 12:26:42 AM

I wish WOW had /stick or /face... even though I played on a fairly good arena team in the 1800s (until I quit playing my warlock, that is) and I'm not THAT horrible at twitch (I hold my own in FPS, I'm not amazing, but then most people aren't).

The reason: I play with a 500-800 ping, and trying to face people for a spellcast who're purposely running through me over and over again is pretty much impossible. Not because I'm slow with the mouse to face towards them, but because the client is reporting an OLD position, so even though I'm facing them on my screen, I'll randomly get a "target must be in front of you" error.

Same with melee and trying to hit targets who are right in my face on my screen, but actually 10 yards ahead, so I'd get spammed with 'out of range' errors. Guild Wars did this right with melee automatically trying to 'keep up' with the target when a melee attack was queued; of course slowing / rooting / stunning abilities would prevent it, but that's fine.


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Typhon
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Reply #1098 on: April 22, 2008, 03:41:23 AM

Let's be clear here - running through an opponent is cheesy as hell.  It doesn't make physical sense, it causes problems with LOS and the amount of force that can be brought to bear on a single target and makes formations pointless.  If a certain subset of people weren't so naturally asshatacular it would have been turned on and left on and the justification for /stick and /face would be reduced to the aforementioned lag and support for player handicaps being the only two I can think of.

I'm not a fan of /face and /stick, but I can see the reasoning for adding them in games without collision detection, with lag, or with geomotry that can be exploited (the ranger is hiding in trees! no, no "amongst trees", physically inside the tree!), to name those issues right off the top of my head.  This is basically all the MMO games we currently have.
tmp
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Reply #1099 on: April 22, 2008, 05:04:05 AM

ob: did someone say twitch?

 Ohhhhh, I see.
bhodikhan
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Reply #1100 on: April 22, 2008, 05:14:11 AM

If they aren't going to have collision detection then a quick and simple way to keep the PvP somewhat sane is to allow casting in ANY direction. I can't tell you how much I hate "target must be in front of you" error while a rogue runs through me and back while I can't cast a single spell.
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Reply #1101 on: April 22, 2008, 05:22:22 AM

Or at least be able to move yourself and still cast.  I've never liked this artificial "you must stand still to cast" mechanic.
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Reply #1102 on: April 22, 2008, 06:10:14 AM

Magic has been stuck trying to emulate the original DnD mechanics for far too long.  Everyone tries to tweak it, but they almost always keep one problematic thing or another.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #1103 on: April 22, 2008, 08:01:38 AM

Or at least be able to move yourself and still cast.  I've never liked this artificial "you must stand still to cast" mechanic.

This is why games add instants.  I like the stand and cast.  Strafing and jumping like an idiot should have a profound effect on accuracy.  If you want to strafe and jump while running, most casters have instants that they can cast while doing this.  If they want to do the big damage, they need to be stationary.  It's all about trade-offs. 

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Ratman_tf
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Reply #1104 on: April 22, 2008, 08:13:57 AM

Strafing and jumping like an idiot should have a profound effect on accuracy. 

But in a game like WoW, it doesn't. You can leap around and shimmy and still have the same chance to hit, cause it's all DIKU/D&D combat. Everything else (running around, jumping) is playing LagTag.



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Reply #1105 on: April 22, 2008, 08:19:30 AM

But in a game like WoW, it doesn't. You can leap around and shimmy and still have the same chance to hit, cause it's all DIKU/D&D combat. Everything else (running around, jumping) is playing LagTag.

Yes... and I agree with your post on this in another thread as well.  I think that FPS and MMO's would benefit from giving high accuracy bonuses to players that do this less as well as penalizing those idiots hoping to exploit server latency by doing the lag/jum/strafe dance. 

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Sky
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Reply #1106 on: April 22, 2008, 08:22:23 AM

Unless you consider LoS or positional abilities.
Nebu
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Reply #1107 on: April 22, 2008, 08:26:48 AM

Unless you consider LoS or positional abilities.

1) If you're going to have positionals, you also need to have collision detection.  I think the reasons why are obvious (run through back stun ftw).  Positionals were also designed to accomodate multi-attacker, single target situations or combat openers.  I think the latency exploiters have taken this to a whole new level. 

2) I am all for LoS as long as several checks are made (not just an initial LoS).  Running around a corner only to see an arrow/missle chasing you is a bit ridiculous. 

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Reply #1108 on: April 22, 2008, 09:36:31 AM

2) I am all for LoS as long as several checks are made (not just an initial LoS).  Running around a corner only to see an arrow/missle chasing you is a bit ridiculous. 
That's for simplification. You have already to keep LOS at the beginning of casting, then end of casting. If you need LOS all the way till the spell lands then playing a caster would be rather frustrating.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who would be glad about accuracy penalty for jumping and strafing.

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Sky
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Reply #1109 on: April 22, 2008, 10:39:03 AM

The battlefield series says you're wrong. Unfortunately, the less penalty they had for bunnytarding, the more popular the franchise got.
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Reply #1110 on: April 22, 2008, 12:43:35 PM

The battlefield series says you're wrong. Unfortunately, the less penalty they had for bunnytarding, the more popular the franchise got.

I'm not sure you can make such a causal distinction.  I'm sure there were other factors that contributed to the popularity beyond this.  Granted, the bunnytards got around this whole thing by dolphin diving in the original BF1942 anyway. 

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Reply #1111 on: April 22, 2008, 01:16:52 PM

Yes... and I agree with your post on this in another thread as well.  I think that FPS and MMO's would benefit from giving high accuracy bonuses to players that do this less as well as penalizing those idiots hoping to exploit server latency by doing the lag/jum/strafe dance. 

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Reply #1112 on: April 22, 2008, 03:42:49 PM

So here's something that may stir things up.  It recently became evident that there's some manner of auto-facing function in WAR.  It can be seen most clearly near the end of this video, in which a Zealot takes on a spazzy Swordmaster or this video, in which a Chosen takes on a Bright Wizard.  I'm not sure that anybody knows the real details yet, but it appears to only lock on when you're using a special ability. 

Of course, there are a number of people on WHA complaining that this removes all skill from combat and a number of others countering that WAR is not and should not be a twitch game.  I've read that this function was in DAoC, which may suggest this is a tried-and-true part of the game Mythic wants to make.

Thoughts? 


Interrupted!
You are not ready yet!
You are not ready yet!
You are not ready yet!


Now that *really* takes me back to daoc.

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Venkman
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Reply #1113 on: April 22, 2008, 04:08:32 PM

Positional attacks do not require collision detection per se. CD would make it better of course, but it's just an assessment of orientation and location.  They do require the target not be bunnyhopping though smiley

Quote from: Hrose
Instead I said the targeting circles are horrible because I'm not a fan of UI pushed in your face like that. WoW's UI was also good because it minimized the chaos of the standard UIs we had.
Consider the difference between launch-WoW (and really, 1-70 WoW) and launch-WAR is being set up to be. WoW's default UI can remain simplistic because it's you against one target most of the time you're playing casually/leveling up. Notice what happens to your UI when you start BGs, Arenas, or Raids though. We don't all need Sky's plachinko array of health bars of course wink, but things get complex later on.

Compare that to how WAR is trying to bring players into these varied activities much earlier than the endgame. Scenarios (BGs), PQs (mini-Raids), and the usual PvE questing/traveling all roughly together. You can see there's already much info to situationally toggle.

There's enjoyment of the aesthetic and there's usefulness of the tool. WAR requires more of them sooner than WoW did.
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Reply #1114 on: April 22, 2008, 04:22:27 PM

I have to the the animation in that Chosen vs Bright Wizard video makes the game look much better than any of the recent screenshots would let on.
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Reply #1115 on: April 22, 2008, 04:30:10 PM

Man, that BW was an affront to all BWs...

And it still amazes me that people can click their hotkey buttons while PvPing. That just seems so slow!
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Reply #1116 on: April 22, 2008, 05:05:42 PM

Consider the difference between launch-WoW (and really, 1-70 WoW) and launch-WAR is being set up to be. WoW's default UI can remain simplistic because it's you against one target most of the time you're playing casually/leveling up. Notice what happens to your UI when you start BGs, Arenas, or Raids though. We don't all need Sky's plachinko array of health bars of course wink, but things get complex later on.

Compare that to how WAR is trying to bring players into these varied activities much earlier than the endgame. Scenarios (BGs), PQs (mini-Raids), and the usual PvE questing/traveling all roughly together. You can see there's already much info to situationally toggle.

There's enjoyment of the aesthetic and there's usefulness of the tool. WAR requires more of them sooner than WoW did.
I'd argue it's exactly the opposite.

It's when things are complex that you have to work to strip the superfluous. Or you'll make another Eve-Online. A great game that doesn't exactly appeal to everyone.

Then I really don't understand the link between targeting circles and the "varied activities". Waypoints can stick to a map, you don't have to put them in the center of the screen at all times.

The point is that most games now copy WoW's UI and the very few elements that they decide to change are for the worse (like health bars in Warhammer being unnecessarily long). Not only there's this habit to copy, but they aren't even good at doing it.

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Venkman
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Reply #1117 on: April 22, 2008, 06:06:34 PM

Quote from: Hrose
I'd argue it's exactly the opposite.
Wow, really? wink

Waypoints and what you're looking at on the target circles are mutually exclusion. You can see that in the video. Now, if you want to debate target circle arrows vs screen-edge arrows ala XvT, PS, SWG:JTL and so on, that's fine. But that's also taste, not objective.

I'd also argue your Eve example. Blaming Eve's UI for its nicheness is like blaming SB's lack of mass success on SB.exe. The total experience is niche as a concept.

WoW has a simplistic default UI because at heart it's a simplistic game. When a player seeks a more complex experience, the UI gets more complex to match.

But they only got there by evolving the better genre elements and wrapping them in a better package. They did not invent quest indicators over NPCs, minimaps, hotkey bars, scrolling chat boxes, system interface buttons, graphically-interesting UI elements, health/mana/power bars, quest logs, crafting UIs and the paperdoll, any more than WAR is only copying WoW, any more than DAoC was only copying EQ1.

WAR's UI is not done. It's not even customizable (as they've said). I understand you can only comment on what you see. But if you assume WAR is only copying WoW, then you also know how much more iteration is going to come before and after launch.
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Reply #1118 on: April 22, 2008, 07:58:10 PM

Waypoints and what you're looking at on the target circles are mutually exclusion. You can see that in the video. Now, if you want to debate target circle arrows vs screen-edge arrows ala XvT, PS, SWG:JTL and so on, that's fine. But that's also taste, not objective.

I'd also argue your Eve example. Blaming Eve's UI for its nicheness is like blaming SB's lack of mass success on SB.exe. The total experience is niche as a concept.
So what am I looking to?

Either they are waypoints or they point to enemies in PvP. Which is an aid tool that definitely diminishes the game (I hide behind a bush, but there's an arrow pointing right at me).

Quote
WoW has a simplistic default UI because at heart it's a simplistic game. When a player seeks a more complex experience, the UI gets more complex to match.
I completely disagree. You really believe that?

Quote
WAR's UI is not done. It's not even customizable (as they've said). I understand you can only comment on what you see. But if you assume WAR is only copying WoW, then you also know how much more iteration is going to come before and after launch.
Who cares if it's not done? I'm not giving definitive judgements, just commenting what I see. If things change I'll change my comments too.

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Venkman
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Reply #1119 on: April 22, 2008, 08:02:18 PM

Can't answer the first one unfortunately.

Quote from: Hrose
I completely disagree. You really believe that?
So you raid, or battleground, or arena, at level 70 with the same UI you started the game with?

Quote
Who cares if it's not done? I'm not giving definitive judgements, just commenting what I see. If things change I'll change my comments too.
"Those targeting circles are WORSE than those in Vanguard" is a comment with definitive judgment tonality.
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