WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Triforcer]

Man, that BW was an affront to all BWs...

Seconded.  I wept when I watched his "stand unmoving in axe range and casually stroll ten feet away after 15 seconds, repeat" strategy. 

[HRose]

So you raid, or battleground, or arena, at level 70 with the same UI you started the game with?

For me yes.

There's only one widget for the PvP scoring.

The comments about Vanguard targeting circles are obvious if you go back and see them. They aren't bad because they have arrows, but because they are HUGE and have fancy patterns around them.

The same could be said for EQ2, that had fancy circles AND arrows pointing down. Luckily you could remove all of that.

A targeting circle is required for a game that is based on target selection. But it should only need to convey that information, not to crowd the screen with all kinds of widgets.

I just don't like a fantasy game with an UI that looks like the bridge of a space ship.

[Venkman]

On that part we agree. I prefer a clean UI, and that was the feature of TR that topped the list for me initally (at whatever-E3 I played it at). I think it's fair to critique WAR based on what is being shown publicly. I also think that there's a lot of stuff that is placeholder.

I preferred EQ2's UI over WoW's initially mostly because you didn't need to leave the game in order to customize it. However, WoW's UI was superior in my opinion because by default it was a cleaner UI for the masses so at start really didn't need much customization. Same with graphics settings. EQ2's laundry list of options is a turnoff to the person who wants to get in and play. Another game suffers from that as well...

Can't find any good screens of VG that show the targeting circle, and my memory of beta is very hazy. EQ2 I remember well though, and I liked their circle as it conveyed info and was stylized. But that WAR's at present is not stylized I file under the category of "incomplete". So it doesn't bother me. For their needs now, it's functional. If it launches that way, then we'll talk

I'm curious what you actually do at the endgame to need only one widget. Maybe if you're completely focused on 3v3 Arenas, you don't need all of the doo-dads?

[Kirth]

On that part we agree. I prefer a clean UI, and that was the feature of TR that topped the list for me initally (at whatever-E3 I played it at). I think it's fair to critique WAR based on what is being shown publicly. I also think that there's a lot of stuff that is placeholder.

I preferred EQ2's UI over WoW's initially mostly because you didn't need to leave the game in order to customize it. However, WoW's UI was superior in my opinion because by default it was a cleaner UI for the masses so at start really didn't need much customization. Same with graphics settings. EQ2's laundry list of options is a turnoff to the person who wants to get in and play. Another game suffers from that as well...

Can't find any good screens of VG that show the targeting circle, and my memory of beta is very hazy. EQ2 I remember well though, and I liked their circle as it conveyed info and was stylized. But that WAR's at present is not stylized I file under the category of "incomplete". So it doesn't bother me. For their needs now, it's functional. If it launches that way, then we'll talk

I'm curious what you actually do at the endgame to need only one widget. Maybe if you're completely focused on 3v3 Arenas, you don't need all of the doo-dads?

To be fair a lot of what used to be third party add-on functionality was added to the stock UI, I always thought Blizz was doing this correct in that providing the tools to allow Ui customization but when something became so popular, including it or removing the functionality to increase game-play, ie fun. Example of the former being things like debuff timers and targets casting bar examples of the later are things like one click curing (decursive) and automatic heal canceling. I don't have a problem with the target circle from those WAR videos, it seems to convey information that is readily available in most mmo's but simplifies it (who is targeting you, where is your current target, etc...). 

[Venkman]

That's a good point about Blizzard adopting UI elements. But it also feeds into my debate with Hrose that later-play WoW features more complex UIs than the level 1 variety.

[HRose]

This can do:



I think it was also animated.

[Mrbloodworth]

This can do:



I think it was also animated.

That guy is level 6.

[Venkman]

Managed to find some images from my screenshots folder in the meantime. Seems to be a bit more understated than the EQ2 variety.

Ironically the image you post shows a somewhat poorly layout collection of UI elements for a newbie character 

[Draegan]

Is that guy fighting on the surface of a cake with vanilla frosting?

[Arrrgh]

Is that guy fighting on the surface of a cake with vanilla frosting?

On a diet?

[ajax34i]

WTF is he doing with that shield?  Look at the shadow of his arm/shield.

[Draegan]

Penis shield.

[murdoc]

I wish I had kept my original DAoC screenshots where all the icons were the same.

[tmp]

That guy is level 6.

I believe it was in response to "Can't find any good screens of VG that show the targeting circle". It does look rather pointlessly busy on that screenshot.

[Venkman]

It was. And that was the irony 

[tmp]

D'oh. Guess that's karma for all the times i got cheap with the green ink 

[Lakov_Sanite]

This can do:



I think it was also animated.

*doubletake*  First thing I thought was a really shitty wow screenshot, that's the vanguard UI? jesus, it's like they didn't even take 5minutes to make it look original. How does a game like that even get released?

[Morfiend]

*doubletake*  First thing I thought was a really shitty wow screenshot, that's the vanguard UI? jesus, it's like they didn't even take 5minutes to make it look original. How does a game like that even get released?

Have you seen LotRO UI?

[Simond]

*doubletake*  First thing I thought was a really shitty wow screenshot, that's the vanguard UI? jesus, it's like they didn't even take 5minutes to make it look original. How does a game like that even get released?

The Vanguard articles in the news section actually explain it quite well.

[Mrbloodworth]

That guy is level 6.

I believe it was in response to "Can't find any good screens of VG that show the targeting circle". It does look rather pointlessly busy on that screenshot.

Ah, i thought it was in response to the UI conversation. Because yeah, wait till that guy gets to 40+ and then look at the "Clean uncluttered UI" lol.

I did really like Vanguards 3d Targeting circle, it wasn't just a projection decal onto the terrain, it was a partial 3d cone. Spun nicely, and was tintable, best part was is that you could see it from most angles, instead of just a few, really nice in congested situations.

On the topic of UI look, you make a UI that your customer, or target audience can recognize. You don't make a cell phone with a hand crank that raises the antenna just to be different. Reinventing the wheel and all that.

The three or so games people are harping on for having similar UI's to World of warcraft (as if they invented it) have UI's like that BECAUSE ITS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT.

To its credit, the vanguard UI had some sexy ideas about it.

[Nebu]

I'm going to get fried for even mentioning this, but I think Vanguard was full of good ideas.  I liked the dual targeting, the diplomacy mini-game, the newbie areas, the character races, and many of the character classes.  Sadly they were doomed by their implementation. 

[Merusk]

I'm going to get fried for even mentioning this, but I think Vanguard was full of good ideas.  I liked the dual targeting, the diplomacy mini-game, the newbie areas, the character races, and many of the character classes.  Sadly they were doomed by their implementation. 

You're not going to get fried by me at least.  If you'd said the GAME was good, or the design philosophy behind any part of it from tech to play was sound, I'd dogpile away.  However, I agree with you on the ideas part.  I've read some stuff about the game that really makes me want to try it at times.  From the healing/ damage class to the way bards were implemented it sounds like some really, really good and different ideas were put into it.   Shame about the rest.

[Draegan]

The classes in VG were actually their best aspect.  The rest of the game was dogshit though.  The classes were great, or atleast their general theme.

[shiznitz]

I'm going to get fried for even mentioning this, but I think Vanguard was full of good ideas.  I liked the dual targeting, the diplomacy mini-game, the newbie areas, the character races, and many of the character classes.  Sadly they were doomed by their implementation. 

I am with you and I bet anyone who played VG would agree. We have all learned, though, that ideas are easy. Playable implementation is the bitch.

[Kirth]

so, Guild Beta invites are going out. Thats a good sign, the next newsletter should have some info on guilds in general as well.

[Venkman]

I'm going to get fried for even mentioning this, but I think Vanguard was full of good ideas.  I liked the dual targeting, the diplomacy mini-game, the newbie areas, the character races, and many of the character classes.  Sadly they were doomed by their implementation. 

I am with you and I bet anyone who played VG would agree. We have all learned, though, that ideas are easy. Playable implementation is the bitch.

Prexactly.

It does disappoint me that only the good ideas tied to successful games get iterated. I say it all the time at work: just because something wasn't a market success doesn't mean concepts within it should be forgotten. VG is like this. CoX was too. And PS, to me anyway. Many good ideas lost to the lack of OMGMONEYHATS.

[UnSub]

It does disappoint me that only the good ideas tied to successful games get iterated. I say it all the time at work: just because something wasn't a market success doesn't mean concepts within it should be forgotten. VG is like this. CoX was too. And PS, to me anyway. Many good ideas lost to the lack of OMGMONEYHATS.

On this point - it takes at least 3 years for a MMO to go live from start to finish, probably longer if you take into account pre-development doodling of ideas.

I think it will probably take at least 5 years for some of the good ideas of MMOs that weren't chart toppers to perculate through the system. ChampO is arguably CoHv2, while some of the money flowing into the industry is being diverted into MMOs that aren't trying to replicate WoW. However, whether those companies get the other things right is another story and the MMO may not launch, but there are plenty of people that want to develop "... done right" or are taking the best bits of other MMOs and combining them.

However, MMO development is still a hard industry to crack, so it tends to be the ideas that are easiest to understand that get the most traction.

[Venkman]

That's true for AAA quality retail-purchased MMOs when one is talking about system-level design (like, say, RPG vs FPS).

What I'm talking about is the sort of features that can be patched in though. Things like mentoring/sidekicking, hiring NPC thugs, porting any one friend to you any time you want, porting to any point on a map you've discovered, environments made accessible by scaling the encounter to the level of the single or group participants, etc.

Basically, anything we liked from everything else that is getting ignored because Blizzard didn't copy it.

[Trippy]

What I'm talking about is the sort of features that can be patched in though. Things like mentoring/sidekicking, hiring NPC thugs, porting any one friend to you any time you want, porting to any point on a map you've discovered, environments made accessible by scaling the encounter to the level of the single or group participants, etc.

Mentoring/sidekicking is very difficult to add in later if the game wasn't originally designed to support it.

[Mrbloodworth]

I just wanted to add to the: "good ideas of MMOs that weren't chart toppers".

Now, i may be over reacting here. But i find that many people do not want innovation, and i'm talking about the players here. They want familiar, easy, and consumable. They seem to want to transition from one game to the next and carry over there knowledge of how the last game played to the next, and get angry or frustrated with crys of "THIS SUCKS" if it doesn't play as it did in the last game. I hate to do it, but i see a lot of people who play Wow, complain in one hand that an orc isn't green (in the new game, This would be mechanic X, or class X, or the combat, ETC..), and in the same breath say a game is to much like Wow (What they really want).

Case in point, i'm sure many have heard about the  discussion, and argument about necromancers in AOC, especially the pets. Basically, people are complaining that they do not work like every other MMO, so they "suck". What this says to me is, that people will ignore the fact that A: this is a different game, and B: the class may have a name as in other games, but it is a unique take on it and the game as a while plays differently (IE: From what i know, every single class in AOC has real melee ability's, unlike other games where if your a caster type..don't even try.)

Anyway, i hope i got my point across, and i did use AOC, but only as a recent example, this can be applied to any game, so try not to focus on AOC in replays, as that kind of misses my point.I could have easily used LOTRO, Or even something as simple as "Elves".

Everyone knows what an elf is, diverge from that, and your fucked....... or so it seems.

I guess people like to feel knowledgeable about something, and if they find out its different, then it sucks because they cant "already know" how to play.

Or something .

[ajax34i]

Oh, I want innovation.   But, I am a consumer; I expect a game to function, have very few bugs, have certain elements in it, a bit of polish, etc etc., and what hooks me to or drives me a way from a (mmo)RP game are the immersion, the storyline, and the fun.  I'm not playing these games to detect and catalogue the innovative elements in them, basically.

[Kirth]

Speaking of Innovation, I've been paying attention of late to the Tome of Knowledge information out there, and I'm really impressed. Granted alot of what it does is not new in individual segments (quest log, story line, achievements) but what mythic is doing with putting it all together in a neat little package will be one of the shining points of WAR.

[Mrbloodworth]

Speaking of Innovation, I've been paying attention of late to the Tome of Knowledge information out there, and I'm really impressed. Granted alot of what it does is not new in individual segments (quest log, story line, achievements) but what mythic is doing with putting it all together in a neat little package will be one of the shining points of WAR.

People will still complain because they are encountering something new, and will say it sucks because it does not react like X game.

[Venkman]

But i find that many people do not want innovation, and i'm talking about the players here.

Veterans flocked to WoW because it was tradition done better. There's still a lot of room for improvement even the basic formula of what's been successful so far (Fantasy DIKU). My post was entirely about the history of what's worked but is being ignored because it wasn't EQ1 then FFXI then WoW.

If you want true invention though, you're talking about adding MMO to another existing genre (which is also being tried). This genre has its rules now. And it's not because of the MMO, but rather the MMORPG. People expect the RPG part.

When an MMOFPS comes out done for FPS players (not the tiny crossover group in PS), then we can debate what a true "MMO" is 

What I'm talking about is the sort of features that can be patched in though. Things like mentoring/sidekicking, hiring NPC thugs, porting any one friend to you any time you want, porting to any point on a map you've discovered, environments made accessible by scaling the encounter to the level of the single or group participants, etc.

Mentoring/sidekicking is very difficult to add in later if the game wasn't originally designed to support it.

Good point. I was assuming though that the game would already have on-the-fly stat adjustments where everything was based on formula rather than hard-coded data. However, I am beginning to wonder if it's safe to assume that

[Lantyssa]

Good point. I was assuming though that the game would already have on-the-fly stat adjustments where everything was based on formula rather than hard-coded data. However, I am beginning to wonder if it's safe to assume that

I'm not sure it's ever safe to assume a MMO will do something smart.