G4 Says every MMO except WoW is a failure...

[Kirth]

  WoW killed or crippled all of them.

I think the market under-esitmated the number of jaded EQ players who were looking for something new and the number of Blizzard fans who would eat anything Blizzard put out. To me is seemed that anyone who was a fan of any Blizz product was a fan of them all and as such when WoW launched all the D2, Warcraft, and Starcraft people flocked to it. The closest thing most of these fans had experienced to an MMO was diablo 2 or the last part of WC3:The Frozen Throne. so giving them WoW is the equivalent of giving someone who smoked a little pot in their time a big fat rock of crack.

 

WoW perfectly balances fun and challenge,

Its fun not to be challenged.

 

keeps its players involved no matter where on the hardcore-to-casual spectrum they happen to fall.

Except after the week it takes you to get max level when your choices are raid, 2/3/5 man duals, or Bombing runs (not as exciting as it sounds)!

Its painless beginning quests and easy early-level progression are fun for more casual gamers, while end-game, 40-man raids and endless grinds appeal to the hardcore community.

this comment only reinforces what I said above, leveling your first character in wow is fun. leveling your 3rd or 4th becuase you've run out of things to do, not so much. Plus there hasn't been anything for 40 men in almost a year, so is this article dated or the writer just mis-informed?

 

In contrast to WoW, consider The Sims Online and Star Wars: Galaxies, two games that veered wildly in opposite directions but failed the same way: Epically.

Never played Sims online, and the only thing I'll say about SWG that hasn't been said here is that it needed to be set like 100 to 500 years after RotJ, With the catch tag shape the future of the Star Wars Universe. No iconic characters running around and everyone can be jedi if they want.

And people talking about WoW's flawless launch are forgetting the crippling lag is some areas and 1200 person queues. 

[WindupAtheist]

Except after the week it takes you to get max level

Do I smell catass?  I think I do. 

[Soukyan]

<oraclemode>
Let me 'splain.

EQ1 was a breakthrough hit in its day and gathered a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps an unheard of number for the time.

WoW tapped a market and brought a large portion of Blizzard's player-base as well as make a game type (MMOG) accessible to more people, thus garnering a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps unheard of in the game market, but not in other markets. There are 12.5 million hunters in the United States alone.

Both games are still MMOGs. Nothing special about either. Really.

You want the "Beatles of Online Gaming"? Just wait until the Guitar Hero or Rock Band franchises are taken MMO. Combine that with televised broadcasts of "PvP" or "GvG" or even "RvR" encounters and you have the new American Idol. Except it will be Universe Idol, and we can watch RvR action between the US and China. Who will have the rock band that achieves the title of next Universe Idol? Tune in next season to find out.

I shit you not. It will happen. And if you use my idea, send me a quarter for it. That's all I ask.
</oraclemode>

[UnSub]

BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

Would that be easier or harder than telling them they can't be Jedi without being hairdressers first?

[Kirth]

Except after the week it takes you to get max level

Do I smell catass?  I think I do. 

With the recent re-vamp to 1-60 leveling in WoW, a week of played time is a generous estimate. 

[DarkSign]

<oraclemode>
Let me 'splain.

EQ1 was a breakthrough hit in its day and gathered a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps an unheard of number for the time.

WoW tapped a market and brought a large portion of Blizzard's player-base as well as make a game type (MMOG) accessible to more people, thus garnering a sizable number of subscriptions. Perhaps unheard of in the game market, but not in other markets. There are 12.5 million hunters in the United States alone.

Both games are still MMOGs. Nothing special about either. Really.

You want the "Beatles of Online Gaming"? Just wait until the Guitar Hero or Rock Band franchises are taken MMO. Combine that with televised broadcasts of "PvP" or "GvG" or even "RvR" encounters and you have the new American Idol. Except it will be Universe Idol, and we can watch RvR action between the US and China. Who will have the rock band that achieves the title of next Universe Idol? Tune in next season to find out.

I shit you not. It will happen. And if you use my idea, send me a quarter for it. That's all I ask.
</oraclemode>

G4 tried this with their show Arena. Albeit it wasnt Guitar Hero - it was online multiplayer fragfests. And to their credit, they did about as well as you could do with a show like that: hyping up the teams, giving background, following them in FPV, and of course, color-commentary.

But that show = epic phail.

Would a guitar hero battle work better? Now that Ive typed this, I think you might have something there.

[Valmorian]

With the recent re-vamp to 1-60 leveling in WoW, a week of played time is a generous estimate. 

A week of /played?  Perhaps.  Of course, that translates to many weeks for most normal people who don't sit and play the game all day.

[Draegan]

EQ2 was, without a doubt, a superior game than Wow. The graphics, the mechanics, the mob AI. 

It was?  I would have to disagree with every point.

[Surlyboi]

If it wasn't at launch, it sure as hell is now.

[Draegan]

EQ2 was never a "good" game.  In any aspect.

[Simond]

EQ2 was, without a doubt, a superior game than Wow. The graphics, the mechanics, the mob AI. 

You're a crazy person. Seek help.

[Nija]

EQ2 started being good around the time that they released PVP servers. It's a better game than WOW now.

The community is awful, however. Weirdest community I've ever seen, anywhere.

[Draegan]

You need to explain to me how EQ2 is better than WOW right now.  I could be wrong though.  I tried playing again when Neriak came out and I couldn't get passed level 20 due to awful zone design, awful graphics, awful combat mechanics and a myriad over all silly things.  Though graphics could be considered subjective I suppose.

[Soukyan]

Would a guitar hero battle work better? Now that Ive typed this, I think you might have something there.

I should clarify that I don't mean a specialty network. This would be CBS or NBC, whoever made Survivor and American Idol. One of those networks would take this idea and make it a primetime hit for the drooling masses. Not that there's anything wrong with being a drooling mass. In any case, you can quote me on it. The prediction of the show, that is. Not the drooling mass bit.

[Simond]

EQ2 started being good around the time that they released PVP servers. It's a better game than WOW now.

I wouldn't say better. It's actually a half-decent game now, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The community is awful, however. Weirdest community I've ever seen, anywhere.

Fun thing to do: Go into the general L1-9 chat and start a discussion about the merits of WoW. The hilarity of people decrying WoW as a game for kiddies while playing a game that has less of a death penalty and otherwise is pretty similar in levelling, etc. is something that has to be experienced.  

[Ratman_tf]

EQ2 started being good around the time that they released PVP servers. It's a better game than WOW now.

I wouldn't say better. It's actually a half-decent game now, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

The community is awful, however. Weirdest community I've ever seen, anywhere.

Fun thing to do: Go into the general L1-9 chat and start a discussion about the merits of WoW. The hilarity of people decrying WoW as a game for kiddies while playing a game that has less of a death penalty and otherwise is pretty similar in levelling, etc. is something that has to be experienced.  

I swear, I go to other games to try them out, not to compare them to WoW. And WoW comes up in general chat all the freakin' time!

Why is the shitty chat box in HGL a bad thing again? 

[Morat20]

With the recent re-vamp to 1-60 leveling in WoW, a week of played time is a generous estimate. 

A week of /played?  Perhaps.  Of course, that translates to many weeks for most normal people who don't sit and play the game all day.

Catasses don't know they're catasses.

You want big, giant, successful game? You admit up-front that the fuckers who will blow through your content in a week aren't important. No matter how fucking hard you make it, no matter how much effort you put into it, they will min/max their way through your content -- often exploiting anything they can find -- in 15% of the time you thought they would.

And they'll fucking BITCH the entire time. And then they'll quit. But they'll quit anyways as soon as the new shiny comes along.

Cater to those fucks and you ruin any chances of actual average players playing your game. Don't design for catasses. Catasses fucking destroy your game. For every fucking catass, there's 20 guys who like to play games but have maybe 10 hours a week and don't really have the time to play more than 2 hours at a time. Cater to those guys. They bitch less, there's more of them, and their money is just as goddamn good.

[Soukyan]

You need to explain to me how EQ2 is better than WOW right now.  I could be wrong though.  I tried playing again when Neriak came out and I couldn't get passed level 20 due to awful zone design, awful graphics, awful combat mechanics and a myriad over all silly things.  Though graphics could be considered subjective I suppose.

Aside from being able to peruse the EQ2 forum here, I would suggest we approach this in a different manner as the demand posed is rife with potential for picking apart features for the sake of picking apart features. How about this. Tell us what you like about WoW, and then we can elaborate on whether or not those features are available or how they are implemented in EQ2.

I will start with the few of your stated gripes.

"awful graphics" - Unless you can explain what you mean by awful, I will chalk this up to personal opinion and let's face it, as any basic communications course will teach, an opinion is not an argument. This would put that statement in an "agree to disagree" format that obviates the need for discussion. If you prefer the graphics and style of WoW, then there is no argument in the world that will change your opinion. The same goes for your opinion of EQ2.

"awful zone design" - Please expound upon this. How would you prefer the zones be designed? Are there just certain zones that you dislike? How do WoW's zones specifically compare to the EQ2 zones, other than just "better"?

"awful combat mechanics" - Again, please explain. Are there specific aspects or is it just wholesale dislike?

"a myriad over all silly things" - Hmm. Going to need more information on that.

It sounds to me like you just dislike EQ2. If you really want to discuss it, then let's get down to brass tacks, but it sounds to me like you've already passed judgement and don't really give a care either way.

[Draegan]

With out catasses I'd have less forum posts to read and laugh at.

[Nebu]

EQ2 and WoW seem to cater to very different gamers.  I enjoy the experience from both but find that they approach the same things differently.  EQ2 is a much deeper game in my estimation and contains quite a few more sub-games.  The zone builds don't feel that different to me.  WoW is full of convoluted zones with walls that appear to be climable but really aren't (one of my pet peeves).  When playing WoW I miss the crafting depth and the collection quests from EQ2.  I also think that EQ2 caters more to the old-school mmo player (less childish humor, less cartoonish look, more linear gameplay, more exploring required, etc).  Both are very good games.  They just don't appeal to the same type of gamer.

[Surlyboi]

WoW is better because I don't have to think as hard, I have to push less buttons and it gives me more shiny. 

[DarkSign]

Im really tempted to go back to EQ2 once I get my new rig. I've done all there is to do in WoW and never thought it was innovative in the least.
EQ2 was much deeper than WoW, even at it's launch. In fact, that was my problem. The player-based economy (9 levels of crafting dependencies? Arcane spell books that were rarer than rare?) was too deep.

But if they've cleaned up how user-friendly it is...and the economy has its footing now...I dont doubt it's a better game for hardcore MMOers.

[Draegan]

While I agree graphics are more of a subjective opinion based on style I just don't think EQ2 does well in regards to how they use textures in the environment and NPC models.  Distance rendoring and animations are also very bad in my opinion.  And to give you an idea my rig can run EQ2 on almost full without shadows at around 25-30 fps depending on the population of PCs around me.

Zone design.  Here's my beef with that.  Quest allocation, landscape design, population methods, POI placement are all inferior and not very well done except in some of the newer instances.

Combat Mechanics.  Well I really don't want to explain this, but having to have incredible amount of skills and abilities to be used in an average fight is annoying and wasteful (You can also begin a discussion on class design and redundancies and itemization*).  I feel like I'm playing the piano.  Also the way combat and skill animations work is also not very well done in my opinion.

I'm not a fanboy of any game.  But these things make up the meat of any game and I don't think they're very well done. 

*Itemization is apprently a larger issue with the new expansion.  I can't comment on it since I havn't experienced it first hand.

A few bullet points that I think makes WOW a better game:
Mob scripting in raids.
Better performance graphically.
Addons ability.  Other than reskined UIs.
Better world and zone design.  Logistically and although this is subjective, aesthetically as well.
Class and ability design.
Animations.
Combat mechanics and, for the lack of a better word, flow.
Itemization and how it effects your character.  Min/Max approach.  (Subjective)

[cmlancas]

Stuff

Bruce? 

Just kidding

[Kirth]

While I agree graphics are more of a subjective opinion based on style I just don't think EQ2 does well in regards to how they use textures in the environment and NPC models.  Distance rendoring and animations are also very bad in my opinion.  And to give you an idea my rig can run EQ2 on almost full without shadows at around 25-30 fps depending on the population of PCs around me.

Zone design.  Here's my beef with that.  Quest allocation, landscape design, population methods, POI placement are all inferior and not very well done except in some of the newer instances.

Combat Mechanics.  Well I really don't want to explain this, but having to have incredible amount of skills and abilities to be used in an average fight is annoying and wasteful (You can also begin a discussion on class design and redundancies and itemization*).  I feel like I'm playing the piano.  Also the way combat and skill animations work is also not very well done in my opinion.

I'm not a fanboy of any game.  But these things make up the meat of any game and I don't think they're very well done. 

*Itemization is apprently a larger issue with the new expansion.  I can't comment on it since I havn't experienced it first hand.

A few bullet points that I think makes WOW a better game:
Mob scripting in raids.
Better performance graphically.
Addons ability.  Other than reskined UIs.
Better world and zone design.  Logistically and although this is subjective, aesthetically as well.
Class and ability design.
Animations.
Combat mechanics and, for the lack of a better word, flow.
Itemization and how it effects your character.  Min/Max approach.  (Subjective)

I was going to post point by point comparisons but decided it wasn't worth it. I played WoW for 3 years, it became un-fun. I am having fun now playing eq2, if that becomes un-fun for me I'll move on to something else. A month ago I would have been waving the flag of WoW, now not so much.

[Ixxit]

One little hook about EQII beyond gameplay mechanics was that the original cities (Freeport and Qeynos) felt like real cities that people llived in.  You could enter all the buildings, and they were organized like I would imagine a medieval or fantasy city would be).  Residential areas, slums,  commerical areas, sewers etc.  There were also factions in the cities and the illusion of political influence through various quests and whatnot; guards and citizens patrolling and walking around going about their business.  Very well designed.  Sure they were very brown but imo it made them more realistic.

WoW's cities on the other hand were caricatures, very stylish and in line with Warcraft, but hardly spaces  that immersed you or made you beleive for a second that "people" lived there.  

EQ2 at release had problems yes, but it did a fantastic job of setting up your player in the world from the original Isle to your city of choice where from meager beginnings in a cheap room you made your way through the various parts of the city, learning about the various factions and gaining favor with them. The whole Freeport quest line kind of reminded me of some of the city-based D&D  campaigns from days gone by.  From there you went out to explore the world (commonlands  ) where admitedly,  the original game started to lose cohesion and became a bag drive, a problem that is non existant with the game as it stands today.

[DarkSign]

Im interested in draegan's discussion of skill comparisons. Let's get down to numbers and cumulativeness please.
How many skills or spells or abilities are you having to spam...10% more than in WoW 30% more? Just an estimate?

Are these skills building up to something in the endgame? I guess to me its worthwhile to have a lot of skills necessary to perform a role when you get to high-level play.  It shows the progression of your character while requiring skill and intelligent/strategic thought. Of course that's an idealized description, but hopefully the meaning is clear = more skills that have important roles at higher levels.

If it's just spamming buttons then that's something else altogether.

Once I get my new rig and play EQ2 again, I'll take a month and do an in-depth, side by side comparison

[Ixxit]

One thing to add: One thing I don't like about EQ II today is that the new starting areas in Neriak (Hate's Evny) and the Sarnak area inTimorous Deep is that everything is squished together to optimize the questing paths like WoW does, which in my opionion discourages "real" exploration and makes the environments seem less realistic. The good news though,  is that you can move through these areas quite quickly to the main adventuring areas.  Other than that it's an outstanding game, definately in my Top 20 from that other thread.

postcount++

[SnakeCharmer]

EQ2 vs WoW cockfight, take 1,182,403,941,134,553,415,262,405!!!

[Ratman_tf]

I was going to post point by point comparisons but decided it wasn't worth it. I played WoW for 3 years, it became un-fun. I am having fun now playing eq2, if that becomes un-fun for me I'll move on to something else. A month ago I would have been waving the flag of WoW, now not so much.

I had a hella lot of fun with WoW. But after a few years, I realized that I wasn't interested in the Raid scene, or the Battlegrounds grind. That leaves not a whole lot to do with the game. I wish the mid-game was much more robust, but that's not what Blizzard is focusing on now. (See faster leveling to 60 and all that.)

[Hoax]

EQ2 vs WoW cockfight, take 1,182,403,941,134,553,415,262,405!!!

Not really.  Its very rare somebody tries to posit that EQ2 > WoW.

I think we've had more cockfights about how FFXI clearly is visually superior to WoW on every level, those were fun for awhile.

[Bandit]

A few bullet points that I think makes WOW a better game:
Mob scripting in raids.

You need to explain to me how EQ2 is better than WOW right now.  I could be wrong though.  I tried playing again when Neriak came out and I couldn't get passed level 20 due to awful zone design, awful graphics, awful combat mechanics and a myriad over all silly things.  Though graphics could be considered subjective I suppose.

Calling bullshit on you Draegan.  How can you comment on Raid scripting when you couldn't pass level 20? 

[Draegan]

One little hook about EQII beyond gameplay mechanics was that the original cities (Freeport and Qeynos) felt like real cities that people llived in.

I agree with this.  This was one of the few things that I enjoyed about EQ2 visually.  Very well done.  I did enjoy slowly leveling up in them.  It was fun.  Then you get to the commonlands and .. as you said..

@Darksign Are these skills building up to something in the endgame? I guess to me its worthwhile to have a lot of skills necessary to perform a role when you get to high-level play.  It shows the progression of your character while requiring skill and intelligent/strategic thought. Of course that's an idealized description, but hopefully the meaning is clear = more skills that have important roles at higher levels.

If you look at some of the scout classes, you have multiple positional attacks.  Each does a varying amount of damage on different cooldowns etc.  I don't have the numbers since I havn't played in 7 months or so, however instead of having 3-5 attacks from the mobs side, why not have 1?  Instead of having 4 backstab skills why not have just 1?  This is an example that can be translated to some degree to almost every archtype.

I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but each class has a shitton of buffs you have to deal with and coordinate since there is a cap to how many you can have activated at once.  But the cherry is that there is no duration which is good.  But I'm not sure why every single class has +stat, +damage buffs you have to activate.  Why not just make them passive and be done with it?

EQ2 to me, just feels like there were many design decisions that were there from the beginning that created to many redundancies. 

[Draegan]

Calling bullshit on you Draegan.  How can you comment on Raid scripting when you couldn't pass level 20? 

Sure you have a point that I don't have first hand knowledge of raid design by playing it, but I've seen it and have heard and talked to people with first hand knowledge.  Can you prove me wrong then?  I wouldn't mind finding out that they have cleverly designed events and mob encounters.  Might make me play in the future when the inevitable bordom of WOW overtakes me again.

[Bandit]

I can't comment either way to be perfectly honest - but I am sure nobody is interested in what you have "heard"

I can't give first hand knowledge on raid scripting on WoW vs. EQ.  I had limited raiding experience in EQ2 (only really raided Desert of Flames content) and no raiding experience whatsoever in WoW.