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Author Topic: G4 Says every MMO except WoW is a failure...  (Read 43465 times)
Samwise
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Reply #70 on: November 30, 2007, 10:37:39 AM

BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

Would that be easier or harder than telling them they can't be Jedi without being hairdressers first?

BURN.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Draegan
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Reply #71 on: November 30, 2007, 10:48:40 AM

I can't comment either way to be perfectly honest - but I am sure nobody is interested in what you have "heard"

Well I through out that comparison and I'm pretty sure I'm mostly right.  I'd leave it up to other to prove me wrong and I'll eat my crow without argument.
naum
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Reply #72 on: November 30, 2007, 10:50:47 AM

SWG has to be considered a failure considering it is SW and should have achieved WoW popularity and success… …as it was, initially and what it morphed into was an absurd example of grafting primary elements from "non-licensed" gamelore onto the SW universe and as previous posters have illustrated, totally ridiculous…

…EQ2 may be termed a "success" depending on what terms of success are defined as. But, one has to acknowledge that compared to WoW, or even EQ1, success it is not…

…but obviously, G4 is trolling or woefully ignorant in this regard, as EQ1 and even UO were MMO success stories long before WoW made the scene…

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
Kirth
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Reply #73 on: November 30, 2007, 10:52:51 AM

I can't comment either way to be perfectly honest - but I am sure nobody is interested in what you have "heard"

I can't give first hand knowledge on raid scripting on WoW vs. EQ.  I had limited raiding experience in EQ2 (only really raided Desert of Flames content) and no raiding experience whatsoever in WoW.

I've killed everything up to and including Illidan in WoW. what do you mean by scripting? do you mean the RP conversations between main characters or things like randomly targeted abilities, Multi-phased encounters that proceed on a timeline/healthline or Ability X th at needs to be countered with Ability Y.

Draegan
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Reply #74 on: November 30, 2007, 11:05:00 AM

I was talking about the 2nd one.  Multiphase fights with different abilities actions and counter actions etc. etc.
taolurker
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Reply #75 on: November 30, 2007, 11:06:32 AM

…but obviously, G4 is trolling or woefully ignorant in this regard, as EQ1 and even UO were MMO success stories long before WoW made the scene…

I'd actually say this was another case of Ad Revenue driving opinion, especially since the last time I was tortured by G4 they had WoW commercials every 10-20 mins.. They also probably love those cel-phone ringtones in an unnatural way too.

As far as this being ignorant or trolling, considering who it's coming from, I'd wager BOTH.

Someplace I have the first AO in game ad screenshots featuring G4 that should prove equally ironic.


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details available here (unused blog about page)
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #76 on: November 30, 2007, 11:12:19 AM

I can't comment either way to be perfectly honest - but I am sure nobody is interested in what you have "heard"

Well I through out that comparison and I'm pretty sure I'm mostly right.  I'd leave it up to other to prove me wrong and I'll eat my crow without argument.

The onus isn't on us to prove you wrong. The onus is on you to prove yourself right.

And including shit like, "I haven't gotten past level 20, but my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris raid 31 Flavors last night, so therefore WoW is better" ain't helping you prove your argument.

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Draegan
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Reply #77 on: November 30, 2007, 11:16:18 AM

It was only one point out of my argument from before so I'll concede it then.  Is there anyone here that raids EQ2 that can enlighten us on how the raid scripting in this game is?

« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:18:17 AM by Draegan »
Numtini
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Reply #78 on: November 30, 2007, 11:18:20 AM

I'm sure WOW stole some fans here or there from other games, most particularly from EQ2, but I don't think it was responsible for any failures--including EQ2s. They failed on their own. I think the only game that really significantly suffered from it was EQ2, which seems to be doing fairly well at least until you start comparing it to WOW.

On why WOW has reached such heights of popularity I think two that haven't been mentioned are low system requirements and bandwagoning.

I certainly feel the bandwagoning call. I have tons of friends playing WOW. There are resources available all over the place. It is in the popular culture. After that first million players, I think WOW grew simply because it was WOW. I mean, Captain Kirk is on my TV telling me to play it. So are the kids on South Park--shame they're more mature than your average PUG.

On system requirements. Are there 10 million potential players with systems capable of running EQ2 smoothly? Bliz lowballed these, made them look fantastic, and opened itself to millions of potential players. I'm constantly shocked at the number of people who are running WOW on laptops or integrated video. This, along with Bliz's rep, was key to opening the Asian market. I never worry about system requirements when recommending WOW to people, but it's one of the first things I'd say about EQ2 (or in its day SWG). I just built a new almost top of the line system (E6750 -- 1333fsb, 8800gts) and I still can't max out the settings on 3 year old EQ2--I'm CPU bound since it's a cpu hog and only uses one core.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Simond
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Reply #79 on: November 30, 2007, 11:48:33 AM

Cater to those fucks and you ruin any chances of actual average players playing your game. Don't design for catasses. Catasses fucking destroy your game. For every fucking catass, there's 20 guys who like to play games but have maybe 10 hours a week and don't really have the time to play more than 2 hours at a time. Cater to those guys. They bitch less, there's more of them, and their money is just as goddamn good.
Hence the levelling changes in 2.3, the lessening of required rep for heroic keys, the daily quests, the BG/dungeon-of-the-day quests, etc. etc. Blizzard has finally realized that the bleeding edge catasses will indeed never be happy...but they certainly are useful for testing the newest content for normal people - "Can the 'ubers' kill this boss? If so, we'll detune the difficulty in a couple of patches once all the bugs & exploits have been found. If not, we'll retune it in the next patch".

One little hook about EQII beyond gameplay mechanics was that the original cities (Freeport and Qeynos) felt like real cities that people llived in.  You could enter all the buildings, and they were organized like I would imagine a medieval or fantasy city would be).  Residential areas, slums,  commerical areas, sewers etc.  There were also factions in the cities and the illusion of political influence through various quests and whatnot; guards and citizens patrolling and walking around going about their business.  Very well designed.  Sure they were very brown but imo it made them more realistic.
I don't care what anyone says, Sanctus Seru from the Luclin expansion of EQ is the best implementation of an evil city in a MMOG: Spotless, beautiful streets, polite and calm citizens, and lots and lots of guards. More than you'd probably deem necessary, really. Katta Castellium was a pretty decent stab at a 'good' city as well.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:53:08 AM by Simond »

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
naum
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Reply #80 on: November 30, 2007, 01:14:51 PM


On why WOW has reached such heights of popularity I think two that haven't been mentioned are low system requirements…


/bingo

In fact, I'd add this affliction is killing PC gaming… …I understand that the gamemaker must bump against the bleeding edge, to steal a line from another topic thread title, "to boldly go where none has gone before"… …but insane computer requirements cripple widespread dissemination. Consider, that to keep up playing high end computer games, one must…

* …engage in a continuous upgrade cycle where you spend >$500 per year.

* …spend lots of time installing patches, upgrades, drivers and updates.

* … deal with ridiculously long disc-copy-protection "features", exposing you to a cornucopia of various "logo" splash pages.

Many, including me, say screw it, and are content to play WoW or other games not in the "bleeding edge"…

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
IainC
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Reply #81 on: November 30, 2007, 01:32:33 PM

Another reason for WoWs success beyond the newb friendliness, the low requirements, the marketing budget that was fresh from destroying Neo-Tokyo and the Blizzard/Warcraft fanboyism is timing.

When WoW launched (at least here in Europe) it was the first major MMO to arrive after broadband stopped being a novelty for geeks and hobbyists and started to become mainstream. Before that a lot of people were still connecting via metered dial-up. Suddenly you have a lot of people with fast internet connections and who aren't paying per minute for them who are receptive to something cool to use their new pipe on. WoW was the right game at the right time for a lot of people. Add to that a healthy dose of mainstream media jumping on bandwagons and you get a cultural phenomenon that even people who don't identify with that culture can relate to. My mum doesn't understand cat macros or the Wii but she knows what a Murloc is.

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Soukyan
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Reply #82 on: November 30, 2007, 01:42:17 PM

Another reason for WoWs success beyond the newb friendliness, the low requirements, the marketing budget that was fresh from destroying Neo-Tokyo and the Blizzard/Warcraft fanboyism is timing.

When WoW launched (at least here in Europe) it was the first major MMO to arrive after broadband stopped being a novelty for geeks and hobbyists and started to become mainstream. Before that a lot of people were still connecting via metered dial-up. Suddenly you have a lot of people with fast internet connections and who aren't paying per minute for them who are receptive to something cool to use their new pipe on. WoW was the right game at the right time for a lot of people. Add to that a healthy dose of mainstream media jumping on bandwagons and you get a cultural phenomenon that even people who don't identify with that culture can relate to. My mum doesn't understand cat macros or the Wii but she knows what a Murloc is.

I can somewhat agree on the bandwidth point, but when WoW came out, I had had broadband connectivity for at least 7 years. I'm not so sure that there was a total convergence going on there.

As for mothers and Murlocs, my mother doesn't find MMOGs entertaining in the least, WoW or otherwise (and yes, I have her take a test run on every new one that I play), but she sure as hell loves her some Wii sports. So yes, it is definitely a subculture, both for WoW and MMOGs and for console games.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
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Soukyan
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Reply #83 on: November 30, 2007, 01:58:27 PM

While I agree graphics are more of a subjective opinion based on style I just don't think EQ2 does well in regards to how they use textures in the environment and NPC models.  Distance rendoring and animations are also very bad in my opinion.  And to give you an idea my rig can run EQ2 on almost full without shadows at around 25-30 fps depending on the population of PCs around me.

Zone design.  Here's my beef with that.  Quest allocation, landscape design, population methods, POI placement are all inferior and not very well done except in some of the newer instances.

Combat Mechanics.  Well I really don't want to explain this, but having to have incredible amount of skills and abilities to be used in an average fight is annoying and wasteful (You can also begin a discussion on class design and redundancies and itemization*).  I feel like I'm playing the piano.  Also the way combat and skill animations work is also not very well done in my opinion.

I'm not a fanboy of any game.  But these things make up the meat of any game and I don't think they're very well done. 

*Itemization is apprently a larger issue with the new expansion.  I can't comment on it since I havn't experienced it first hand.

A few bullet points that I think makes WOW a better game:
Mob scripting in raids.
Better performance graphically.
Addons ability.  Other than reskined UIs.
Better world and zone design.  Logistically and although this is subjective, aesthetically as well.
Class and ability design.
Animations.
Combat mechanics and, for the lack of a better word, flow.
Itemization and how it effects your character.  Min/Max approach.  (Subjective)

Yes. EQ2 is far more taxing on hardware than WoW. That is a fact. It is also a fact that WoW was designed, at least initially as expansions may have raised the specs, to run on 800MHz machines with low memory and shitty graphics cards. Thus the use of less polygons and the need for good texturing to compensate for the "blocky" models. Please note: I am not griping. I tested WoW and played it after release as well and even checked out the Burning Crusade expansion. Moving along...

Your statement on zone design is again quite subjective. You say it is inferior, I say it is just not to your liking. We should probably start a new thread over in the Game Design/Development forum here to discuss that in more detail. I like the way zones are handled in both games. I do agree that I disliked the "rails" feeling I got sometimes in WoW zones, but EQ2 has some zones like that as well, so comparatively, that's a wash for me.

As for combat mechanics, I like playing the piano. But again, this is a subjective issue. As you said, we could talk class design, redundancy (has been around since Diku days and before in the form of renaming spells that do the same damn thing across classes - one class has fireball and another has ice comet) and such in the design forum. Once again, it is your opinion so we'll chalk up another there and agree to disagree.

As for your bullet points, I cannot address raiding in either game. I concede better performance due to lower hardware requirements to WoW. This does not make it "better" graphically. Once again, a subjective issue. Art design and whatnot. EQ2's UI does take add-ons as well as reskins and complete XML based remakes. World and zone design, as you stated is subjective and therefore discarded. I believe the animations are also subjective, but as I have done some 3D animation work in the past, I would have to say that both games could be improved in several areas. Neither is pixel perfect in the animation department. Even cutesy dances don't compensate for sloppy work. ;) Combat mechanics and flow and class design would need more in-depth discussion as you make no points regarding either. And lastly, itemization as you stated was subjective, so no point made there.

Overall, I think if you really want to discuss this, we need to start our own threads or join ones already in progress on the topics.

As to your need to concede points where you are wrong, there is no need as you made only one non-subjective point and that is that WoW performs better on older hardware. Hell, even on newer hardware due to lower minimum requirements. Call it a better optimized game engine if you want, but the number of polygons on screen, the advanced graphics options (or lack thereof), the textures, etc. all play a role in determining performance as well. So you don't have to concede that one as you are right.

You made no other points, you simply stated what you think makes WoW better. That's cool with me. There is no need for anyone here to try to convince you that EQ2 is better or to even elaborate upon why EQ2 may have better implementations of some systems than other MMOGs, because you are not interested in playing it or even in discussing it. You have already stated your position and which game you will play and will not leave.

Five "words" sum it up: You think WoW is better.

'Nuff said.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:02:17 PM by Soukyan »

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
Morat20
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Reply #84 on: November 30, 2007, 02:10:26 PM


On why WOW has reached such heights of popularity I think two that haven't been mentioned are low system requirements…


/bingo

In fact, I'd add this affliction is killing PC gaming… …I understand that the gamemaker must bump against the bleeding edge, to steal a line from another topic thread title, "to boldly go where none has gone before"… …but insane computer requirements cripple widespread dissemination. Consider, that to keep up playing high end computer games, one must…

* …engage in a continuous upgrade cycle where you spend >$500 per year.

* …spend lots of time installing patches, upgrades, drivers and updates.

* … deal with ridiculously long disc-copy-protection "features", exposing you to a cornucopia of various "logo" splash pages.

Many, including me, say screw it, and are content to play WoW or other games not in the "bleeding edge"…
I've finally broken down and decided to get an Xbox 360 -- after years of hating on consoles because I hate console controllers and already had an expensive PC -- because I'm sick of trying to keep up, and I'm not a hardcore gamer.

But I can run games on the Xbox360 that are damn well going to run properly. And that's the long and short of it. I use my PC for WoW and EVE and older games (I just finished KOTOR2).
Draegan
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Reply #85 on: November 30, 2007, 04:44:09 PM


Five "words" sum it up: You think WoW is better.

'Nuff said.

This is quite true.  Everyone has their own opinion and I'd enjoy a more indepth discussion about class mechanics and combat mechanics in another thread.  In the end you can't scientifically prove (other than hardware benchmarks) which game is better.  I have my opinion and you yours and thats why we're posting in a forum.  But if I were to play (and I am to a degree right now) play armchair developer, I would take the mechanics etc etc of WOW over EQ2.  But you can't quantify "feel" for games.
Venkman
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Reply #86 on: November 30, 2007, 09:11:03 PM

I miss the days of EQ vs UO. Those games were actually different.

Quote from: Soukyan
Just wait until the Guitar Hero or Rock Band franchises are taken MMO

Audition plays upon this a bit. Sorta of a memory/follow-me overlaying music to give it a beat. I contend that most of what makes GH so great is the instrument itself. An MMO requiring an instrument? Maybe, but not really sure about that.  It's otherwise a relatively simple repetitive action/reaction experience (testament to how any game can be distilled to some sanitized statement that doesn't convey why it's so damned popular... ie, any WoW-is-just-EQ1-better counterpoint).
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #87 on: December 01, 2007, 01:59:28 AM

I miss the days of EQ vs UO. Those games were actually different.

Darniaq:  1
Entire EQ2 versus WoW tangent:  0

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Fordel
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Reply #88 on: December 01, 2007, 02:55:32 AM

What would we argue now? WoW vs. EvE?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
cmlancas
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Reply #89 on: December 01, 2007, 03:47:28 AM

Probably WoW v Bejeweled. Or maybe TF2.

 awesome, for real

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Soukyan
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Reply #90 on: December 01, 2007, 06:46:13 AM

Probably WoW v Bejeweled. Or maybe TF2.

 awesome, for real

TF2 wins hands down.

"Life is no cabaret... we're inviting you anyway." ~Amanda Palmer
"Tree, awesome, numa numa, love triangle, internal combustion engine, mountain, walk, whiskey, peace, pascagoula" ~Lantyssa
"Les vrais paradis sont les paradis qu'on a perdus." ~Marcel Proust
Slyfeind
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Reply #91 on: December 01, 2007, 12:56:10 PM

I don't think it's advertising dollars that's warping G4's opinion. (Advertisers don't really control the media; if you lose one advertiser, you can find four more to replace them...unless your sales people suck of course.) I just don't think G4 has an opinion to begin with. They see WOW doing well, and in their ignorance, they assume everybody else is doing poorly. They probably don't know what UO or EQ are. They just think WOW is big with their imaginary target audience (how do they put it, the "iPod/YouTube/MySpace generation?") so they slam SWG because they think it's the hip thing to do.

Kinda sad. It's like a smelly nerdy kid wearing heavy metal T-shirts and saying words like "groovy" and "radical."

"Role playing in an MMO is more like an open orchestra with no conductor, anyone of any skill level can walk in at any time, and everyone brings their own instrument and plays whatever song they want.  Then toss PvP into the mix and things REALLY get ugly!" -Count Nerfedalot
Ratman_tf
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Reply #92 on: December 01, 2007, 03:18:44 PM

Kinda sad. It's like a smelly nerdy kid wearing heavy metal T-shirts and saying words like "groovy" and "radical."

Now I have to change my style.  cry

P.S. Get back to work, slacker.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Azazel
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Reply #93 on: December 01, 2007, 03:22:13 PM

The SOE Austin team ADDED space to SWG. The original SWO didn't have any planned at all. :P
BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

Wow. Just Wow. this quote tells me you know fucking nothing about Star Wars. Add it to that.. thing that you shipped and, well...


http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Venkman
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Reply #94 on: December 01, 2007, 03:42:10 PM

But JTL was planned even before SWG launched. I still remember the "it's like Deus Ex in space" conversation from here (or was it Waterthread #1, 2, 5?).

Otherwise, I agree with Slyfeind on the article. There's no motive to push advertisers. They just don't know what they're talking about and are too lazy to go learn it.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #95 on: December 01, 2007, 04:16:04 PM

The SOE Austin team ADDED space to SWG. The original SWO didn't have any planned at all. :P
BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

Wow. Just Wow. this quote tells me you know fucking nothing about Star Wars. Add it to that.. thing that you shipped and, well...



Have you even watched a Star Wars movie? Did you want them to make fukkin' Earth and Beyond and call it Star Wars? Mega-Sheesh...



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
stray
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Reply #96 on: December 01, 2007, 04:22:34 PM

All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #97 on: December 01, 2007, 04:36:17 PM

All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.

Why should I pay a monthy fee for Star Wars Battlefront?



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
stray
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Reply #98 on: December 01, 2007, 04:46:30 PM

Never said you had to!

My only point is that out of all mmo licenses, that one was pretty straightforward. Unlike, say, the Star Trek stuff we've talked about in the other thread..
DarkSign
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Reply #99 on: December 01, 2007, 05:25:18 PM

All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.

You know you're pretty spot on about that.  Even a smattering of stats with some objective based PvP and a basic trading economy would be enough to make it worth a persistent world.
Nija
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Reply #100 on: December 01, 2007, 05:54:57 PM

All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.

They should have done it WW2O-style where you fight campaigns and eventually one side wins and the game resets.

"Yeah, right now we're on Yavin, but since we weren't able to destroy the shipyards at XYZ Coords last week, the Imperials are hitting us so hard I don't know how much longer we're going to hold out here. We'll have to start retreating to Hoth soon, probably a week or two quicker than we had to last time. I think the key is putting a hurt on shipyards so they can't bring so many vehicles to Yavin this next time. If we get them in the forest and fight man to man we'll be able to do much better.

3rd/1st person combat with vehicles. Steal as much from BF*, Planetside, WW2O, Wing Commander, and Privateer that you have to.
Azazel
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Posts: 7735


Reply #101 on: December 01, 2007, 06:40:39 PM

The SOE Austin team ADDED space to SWG. The original SWO didn't have any planned at all. :P
BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

Wow. Just Wow. this quote tells me you know fucking nothing about Star Wars. Add it to that.. thing that you shipped and, well...



Have you even watched a Star Wars movie? Did you want them to make fukkin' Earth and Beyond and call it Star Wars? Mega-Sheesh...

so.. you're defending the inclusion of hairdressers and teras kasi vs no space battles and calling me on Star Wars knowledge?

get a fuckkin' clue.


All it had to be was Battlefield + Wing Commander. That shit writes itself. Nuff said.

It's pretty amazing that someone actually thought it should be something other than that though.

QFT

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #102 on: December 01, 2007, 07:40:57 PM

so.. you're defending the inclusion of hairdressers and teras kasi vs no space battles and calling me on Star Wars knowledge?

get a fuckkin' clue.

Yea I am.  Shaking fist Space battles weren't the only thing in the Star Wars movies, and just adding them didn't save the game. (JTL could not prevent the hemmoraging of accounts due to the CU and NGE...)



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
SnakeCharmer
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Reply #103 on: December 01, 2007, 09:02:43 PM

Azazel
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Posts: 7735


Reply #104 on: December 01, 2007, 09:09:40 PM

replied over there. also, SC, your link is broken.


http://azazelx.wordpress.com/ - My Miniatures and Hobby Blog.
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