G4 Says every MMO except WoW is a failure...

[Mrbloodworth]

1) Every North American MMO Since World of Warcraft: It was only a few years ago when the entire game industry seemed geared toward everything massively multiplayer. A quick look at 2004 and 2005's E3 rundown reveals dozens of MMOs either in development or planned. WoW killed or crippled all of them. The reasons are many, but a huge contributing factor is simply how good World of Warcraft is as a game. WoW perfectly balances fun and challenge, and keeps its players involved no matter where on the hardcore-to-casual spectrum they happen to fall. Its painless beginning quests and easy early-level progression are fun for more casual gamers, while end-game, 40-man raids and endless grinds appeal to the hardcore community. In contrast to WoW, consider The Sims Online and Star Wars: Galaxies, two games that veered wildly in opposite directions but failed the same way: Epically.

Source

[Venkman]

Their premise is close, but their references are way-wrong and stupid. TSO and SWG? Really? These games not only preceded WoW by years, they launched when "success" in the genre was measured at a very different level. SWG did not hit the market potential some believed it would, but getting into the 200k range was not a failure at the time when only, what, two MMOs exceded that? EQ1 was king and people were still arguing about the relevance of the L1 numbers. FFXI also exceeded that, but were still arguing how much of that playerbase was in North America.

Also, they're saying the only successful model for games is DIKU. That's fine, except they ignore just how many DIKUs preceded WoW. Dozens, really. Had this been a statement about what type of MMO works in this genre, fine, compare it to the leading examples  other types of games (UO/SWG for sandbox, PS for MMOFPS, idunnowhat for MMORTS).

If you're going to make a tried-and-failed statement, at least draw the right relevances.

[stray]

Blizzard tapped into the one MMO idea that's fleshed out and could be really executed well (the Diku/EQ model), polished it like a motherfucker, and provided a better license/game world than others have. Doesn't make it a good game to me though. Just a good version of a shitty game.

[geldonyetich2]

It'd make more sense to say "every MMO except WoW is a failure" if the goal behind WoW was not to merely distill the experience available in every MMO.  For me, WoW is just another EQ-clone.  It's a good EQ-clone but, when you're as sick of them as I am, WoW does not impress.

So, basically, this is the third reply saying essentially the same thing. :P

[HaemishM]

It's G4. Epic fail seems to describe them so well.

[drmccollum]

Sounds like the folks over at G4 should actually try playing at least one MMO before making a comparison.

[tkinnun0]

I see their point.

How many Sims games are there? Star Wars games? Warcraft games? All of those IPs are successes in the single-player/occasional multiplayer genre, but MMOs have the potential to transcend single-player gaming. TSO or SWG could perhaps be considered successes if compared to a single one of their single-player brethren, but they are utter failures when it comes to realizing MMOs' potential. Only Blizzard has made any headway there and that's why they are the MMO success until someone comes along and blows them out of the water.

[BigBlack]

Yes, World of Warcraft has made Puzzle Pirates such a failure.

Wait, what?

Also, to person above me: WoW made headway at realizing the potential of MMOs... how, exactly?  Financial potential, sure.  Other than that, come again?

[DarkSign]

Yes, World of Warcraft has made Puzzle Pirates such a failure.

Wait, what?

Also, to person above me: WoW made headway at realizing the potential of MMOs... how, exactly?  Financial potential, sure.  Other than that, come again?

I agree. That previous statement is utterly ridiculous. WoW doesnt do anything new that EQ, AO, or UO didnt do. All WoW does is make it much more user-friendly.
If mass appeal = potential for MMOs then sure. They win.  But they dont have reactive worlds that change based on player's actions. Not even close.

[Draegan]

It all depends on your parameters of failure.  How many MMOs have been delayed because of the bar Blizzard has set in terms of quality?  That says something.

[tazelbain]

The AC2 of cable channels has no business judging others.

[geldonyetich2]

To this day, I wonder how much of WoW's millions are because it's such a well-streamlined EverQuest.  The Blizzard and Warcraft brand names might have dragged in far more players to even try the game than most MMORPGs would have even had a chance with.  Don't get me wrong, if the game sucked, it wouldn't have kept those players as well as it did.

[CharlieMopps]

G4 are the biggest pack of idiots there are. I still watch, but thats just for Olivia Munn   


As far as Wow being the only success? Uh, no... That's like saying every band since the Beatles has been a failure. The first rock band that came along that wrote good songs and didn't kill themselves with amphetamines was destined to be "The Beatles"

Same with MMO's... The first one that came along that could actually keep the servers up, that wasn't run by the online games version of the Anti-Chist (SOE) and had a brand name to attract people was destined to be as successful as World of Warcraft. EQ2 would have KILLED WoW if it wasn't for SOE's Bungling. Same goes for SWG. 

[stray]

EQ2 and SWG were woefully ugly and badly implemented, respectively. Technical flaws. The gaming populace as a whole doesn't care who SOE is.

[Ratman_tf]

Same with MMO's... The first one that came along that could actually keep the servers up, that wasn't run by the online games version of the Anti-Chist (SOE) and had a brand name to attract people was destined to be as successful as World of Warcraft. EQ2 would have KILLED WoW if it wasn't for SOE's Bungling. Same goes for SWG. 

I doubt it. EQ2 might have expected EQ numbers, maybe a bit more, but nothing like WoW. They just didn't have the fanbase or potential to draw in those kinds of customers.

SWG... hard to tell. Let's say SWG was magically "better" and "fun" and all that shit... I'd say possible. I have doubts about how many Star Wars fans would translate over to MMORPG fans.

[Merusk]

  on this whole thread.

Same with MMO's... The first one that came along that could actually keep the servers up, that wasn't run by the online games version of the Anti-Chist (SOE) and had a brand name to attract people was destined to be as successful as World of Warcraft. EQ2 would have KILLED WoW if it wasn't for SOE's Bungling. Same goes for SWG. 

Now THAT is some god damned wishful thinking with a whole helping of "If they.." on the side.

Both games could have been as stable as WoW and still wouldn't have achieved their numbers. Not with the as-launched designs of both games.  EQ2 is a good game today after changing a LOT of shit.  SWG never was complete before they started ripping shit out and changing it, but it STILL wasn't sensible from a few very important design standpoints.*

* Important to most of the folks here? Probably not, but important to the rest of the gaming population who aren't trying to relive some UO experience.   And even more so to the SW fans whose venn diagram doesn't intersect with 'I know who Raph Koster is."

[tkinnun0]

Saying that WoW is the Beatles of MMOs is saying that MMOs have almost peaked. Rock bands may have peaked when MTV stopped playing music videos, but MMOs? Not yet, not by a long shot.

[CharlieMopps]

You're both making the point that SOE screwed up, and that was my point as well. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have hit Wows numbers... specially with SWG. The brand name alone should have sold more than WOW. But the game wasnt done when they released it. And you couldn't fly spaceships at launch? OMGWTF? In a starwars game you couldn't fly a ship?

EQ2 was, without a doubt, a superior game than Wow. The graphics, the mechanics, the mob AI.  But the rules set at release was ridiculous. There was no reason for half the annoying bullshit they put a new player through. Shard recovery for one. Then, on top of that, the servers crashed for a full week about 2 months after launch. A FULL week! The froglok incident, the Exchange servers, the nickel and diming via expansion packs and eq2players, they alienated just about every hardcore player they had. All of whom went to WOW. MMPOGS build audiences through word of mouth more than any other media does. You go where your guild goes. Those guys at work that are always playing that game? You might check it out... All the word of mouth about EQ2 was bad. Very bad. For at least a year after release. EQ2 could have been as big as Wow, but was ruined by SOE. They have turned it around... far too late though.

Whens Steam going to make an MMO? ;-)

[Merusk]

You're both making the point that SOE screwed up, and that was my point as well. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have hit Wows numbers... specially with SWG. The brand name alone should have sold more than WOW. But the game wasnt done when they released it. And you couldn't fly spaceships at launch? OMGWTF? In a starwars game you couldn't fly a ship?

That was less SOE's fault than it was Raph's.  It was announced long before launch (I want to say almost a year and a half before, in fact) that there would be no space flight.  But we'd have swordsmen, pikemen and martial artists to go with our crafters.

WTF?

Yeah, see, wrong guy for that game.

EQ2 was, without a doubt, a superior game than Wow. The graphics, the mechanics, the mob AI.  But the rules set at release was ridiculous. There was no reason for half the annoying bullshit they put a new player through. Shard recovery for one. Then, on top of that, the servers crashed for a full week about 2 months after launch. A FULL week! The froglok incident, the Exchange servers, the nickel and diming via expansion packs and eq2players, they alienated just about every hardcore player they had. All of whom went to WOW. MMPOGS build audiences through word of mouth more than any other media does. You go where your guild goes. Those guys at work that are always playing that game? You might check it out... All the word of mouth about EQ2 was bad. Very bad. For at least a year after release. EQ2 could have been as big as Wow, but was ruined by SOE. They have turned it around... far too late though.

If the mechanics were so superior, why'd they change them? Oh right, because they sucked. SOE didn't fuck-up EQ2's design, the design team did.  It was panned because it was horrible AND it ran like shit, not just because it ran like shit.

Again, "if" "shoulda" "coulda" and "woulda" don't matter.  Only was was.  What was sucked, and would have sucked with SOE, Turbine, or even Blizzard using the design documents that were followed.  The games were failures at a design level AND an execution level.

[Samwise]

 

[Raph]

You're both making the point that SOE screwed up, and that was my point as well. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have hit Wows numbers... specially with SWG. The brand name alone should have sold more than WOW. But the game wasnt done when they released it. And you couldn't fly spaceships at launch? OMGWTF? In a starwars game you couldn't fly a ship?

That was less SOE's fault than it was Raph's.  It was announced long before launch (I want to say almost a year and a half before, in fact) that there would be no space flight.  But we'd have swordsmen, pikemen and martial artists to go with our crafters.

WTF?

Yeah, see, wrong guy for that game.

The SOE Austin team ADDED space to SWG. The original SWO didn't have any planned at all. :P

BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

[Raph]

I suppose I should answer with a non-kneejerk SWG reaction. :)

Yeah, this G4 analysis is dumb.

Insert historical data and the time order of releases.

Insert random comments about web-based MMO audiences here.

Insert controversial comments about how much WoW leveraged extant branding and audience.

[Ratman_tf]

You're both making the point that SOE screwed up, and that was my point as well. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have hit Wows numbers... specially with SWG. The brand name alone should have sold more than WOW. But the game wasnt done when they released it. And you couldn't fly spaceships at launch? OMGWTF? In a starwars game you couldn't fly a ship?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying EQ2 never had a shot at WoW's numbers, and SWG might have, but I doubt it.

[Montague]

BTW, you try facing SW fans and telling them they can't have their Teras Kasi.

*Ahem*

"Teras Kasi is a bullshit, non-canonical device introduced in a glorified-fanfic novel by a hack author who fancies himself Bruce Lee. It might see the light of day in a future expansion pack, if I feel like it. Now get the fuck off my lawn before I call the cops, I got spaceships to design."

How's that?

[DarkSign]

I wholeheartedly agree that Olivia Munn is the only thing that gets me to watch G4. That and that spunky Kevin P. Morgan Webb can kiss my ass. She's gotten to the point where she believes her own hype. Patrick and Leo at least had some soul back when it was TechTV.

I'll say it again. WoW wasnt anything spectacular...it was a cleaned up, user-friendly EQ with a bit more focus on casual gaming.
But that doesnt make it the Beatles of MMOs.  MMOs will get a lot better in the next 5-10 years. They'll become more responsive, more story-oriented or they'll go the way of the dodo.

[Strazos]

They also need to start leveraging broadband more and stop designing with dialup in mind.

[Tige]

The only constant difference I've ever seen between successful and unsuccessful games, whether mmo or single player, is successful games work at release and unsuccessful games don't. 

[Margalis]

What the the hell is a Teras Kasi? Seriously. I'd never even heard of that shit.

Star Wars is about lightsabers, blasters and spaceships. SWG shipped with one out of three of those. It's that simple. Anything else is over-analysis.

LOTRO without Orcs and Hobbits would be an epic failure. Star Trek without phasers, again epic fail. Star Wars without Jedis and spaceships is like a birthday cake without flour and sugar.

The fact that people prioritized Teras Kasi over fucking LIGHTSABERS pretty much says it all. It's like the people who made SWG had no idea what "Star Wars" actually was. Fans might complain about no Teras Kasi but I'm pretty sure they'd complain a lot more about no spaceships and lightsabers.

The initial design was crap for the license. Not crap, but crap for the license. Square peg round hole. At the fundamental level not only is it not Star Wars but it's making a sim game for an action-adventure pulp license.

Edit: I'm reminded of the Penny Arcade comic about D&D. We have dungeons, what about the dragons? Oops, well we got half!

[DarkSign]

Agreed. I mean all you really had to do was put some rpg behind starwars battlefront + a graphically updated Tie Fighter.

[Merusk]

At the risk of derailing farther.. I'm a huge SW fan.  Legos, posters, lightsabers adorn my house and I play "dark side" with my son (his name for Vader) more than we play catch.  I watch the new  movies and enjoy them despite the hate most others have for them.  Han fucking shot first.

Teras Kasi was bullshit introduced in a bland novel and exploited in a "hey fighters are popular" playstation game by Lucasarts.  That's it.  ANYONE who was saying "it needs this generic martial art, not space and action-based combat!" was not the fan you were looking for.   Hell, I even actually enjoyed Rebellion and Force Commander, and if you don't know what that means you're the last person who needs to decide what does or does not go into a Star Wars game.  Sorry.

[geldonyetich2]

Teras-Kasi masters were not the problem.  Star Wars Galaxies being a virtual world game was the problem.  People wanted action-adventure, they were given sim-Auntie Beru.  Canon or no, martial artists and their action-adventure undertones were a step in the right direction.

[Ratman_tf]

X-Wing did not have lightsabers, and I think it was a perfectly awesome Star Wars game.

I will tell you (because I am right and everyone else is wrong) the elements of Star Wars that were missing from Star Wars Galaxies:

The Galactic Civil War. On ship, this game needed a way for players to participate on either side, with goals and whatnot. What shipped was anemic and unsatisfying. Putting the PvP mostly in Gankzor hands.

Adventure. Missions were a way to grind xp and money. There should have been much more static quests with speeder chases and bounty hunters and suchlike.

The crafting and hairdressing were fine. The lack of space was regretable, but not necessary. The lacking thing was that there was no epic space opera feel to the game. If they could somehow have captured the essence of "rescuing the princess from the Death Star", SWG would have had a much different fate.

[DarkSign]

With such a large subject matter, this game is RIPE for objective-based PvP that equates to a tug-of-war over who's winning control of the universe.
I knew that SW was being raped with the invention of tonfa lightsabers. That's just an insane reach.

[geldonyetich2]

I invite people to head over here if they want to build upon the ashes of SWG.

[SnakeCharmer]

I didn't do it...