Free Respec. Why not?

[Dren]

I've been thinking about his a lot lately and it just makes sense to me.  Since we see a huge issue with lack of healers and tanks in the game due to people wanting to dps, why not let them do both, in a fashion?

Think about it.  Get a group together and hash out who will tank, heal, dps.  Then those people jump over to the trainers and respec to what makes sense.  They then go grab the gear from their bank that makes sense and hit the instance.

This doesn't allow people to surprise opponents in PvP matches and it really doesn't provide for any other advantage other than reducing the amount of gold leak you have in your personal v-wallet. 

Hell, they don't have to make it free really.  Just make it a gold piece of something so it stops people from respeccing 10 times a day (although I still don't see why that would be a problem.)

Warrios could then be DPS while they solo and then tanks when they group.  Priests can be dark ganstas while solo or DPS if needed in a group or heal if necessary too.

This basically gives each class 2 out of 3 things they are good at.  Heal, DPS, Tank.  The only class that can do all three relatively well is the druid, but they still have to make a choice on specification before heading out for an instance/quest. I suppose you could argue Paladins, but really their DPS is subpar to all other chars in their own DPS builds.

This would also prolong the "gear game" for many since you would be all that more inclined to grab gear for your multiple builds.  2-3 sets wouldn't be out of the question.  Most have 2 sets now anyway.

The only drawback I can even imagine is breaking immersion since I guess talents are supposed to represent how your character "grew up," but that notion has been thrown to the wind way before now.  People already respec multiple times in a character's "life."  Does it really have to be as painful as 15 gold a pop?

[Numtini]

EQ2 has some new device that you can stick in your apartment and switch between two specs, that actually is a nice compromise between free for all and being locked into either raid or solo/dps modes. (Or will be if it ever gets into the game or anyone discovers the recipe for it.)

But absolutely. Spec's are way too confining in WOW. They need to lighten up on this.

[Salamok]

forcing you to go to a trainer is a pointless unfun timesink.  you should be able to respec on the fly as long as it isn't mid combat.

[Zetor]

I agree. I thought about something like this after the daily 'money' quests came out -- at that point it WAS possible to respec on a whim (warriors: respec MS for arena, respec fury for solo farming, respec prot for raiding) and a lot of people with enough gold did start respeccing multiple times a week, doing daily quests to cover the respec costs. Why not make it free, then, and limit it to X respecs a week (or add a token money cost, like you said)? You can only respec inside capital cities, so there's no real pvp advantage to this. This'd make forming pugs a LOT less painful.

The current respec situation is kind of unfair. Some classes (ESPECIALLY tanks and healers) have to respec all the time if they want to be effective at pve/pvp, other classes have pve/pvp talent builds that are slightly more efficient by shuffling around a few points, but not game-breakingly so, and yet other classes can pve/pvp with exactly the same build.

Aside: I've heard of warlocks 'respeccing' before arena matches and leaving 1/2 points hanging, creating a 'normal' soulwell when entering a match, then using the 'free' talent points to get improved healthstone and create another set of healthstones for the team (you can have multiple healthstones, as long as they heal for a different amount). Excessive micromanagement? Yes. Giving them a slight edge against the other team that might win them the game? Yup...

Edit:

forcing you to go to a trainer is a pointless unfun timesink.  you should be able to respec on the fly as long as it isn't mid combat.

Unless this was supposed to be green, the trainer is necessary to train the higher ranks of the talent-specific skills (which could also be automated, true). It'd also be a bit nasty in battlegrounds to have a warlock respec to destruction (probably using a mod to insta-assign the talent points), itemrack in a full destruction set and kill the guards really quickly, then hot-swap to a soul link build / gearset and hold the node until reinforcements arrive. Or a rogue switching between gank and combat builds on-the-fly (stealth = out of combat, all they need to do is vanish). Etc.

However, what COULD work is just requiring the player to be out of an instance when respeccing. This could create unfair/broken world pvp encounters, but nobody at Blizzard cares about world pvp in the first place, anyway. :p


-- Z.
(for the record, my main is a warlock, but I do have a warrior I like to tank and pvp with)

[caladein]

I think for the most part it's painless enough to keep respecs up. 100g here and back is under one suite of dailys in one day.

I do think they should facilitate the exercise by allowing you to save talent builds in-game. One easy button drive-by the trainer versus having to stand there sticking points in and making sure you're not Arena'ing with R1 MS would be a boon.

[Zetor]

That's the thing, "one suite of dailies" [which usually only means ogri'la and skettis, as you need an epic flying mount in order to have access to netherwing] takes at least one and a half hour of gametime, more if you aren't a proper farming spec. If you need to do that every time you respec, it becomes very tiresome very fast, especially if you're a class that needs to respec often (warrior being the prime example here).

It'd be a lot cleaner to just cut the respec costs out entirely and add a template system like Guild Wars along with auto-buying spell ranks. (seriously, why do I need to buy up 5 ranks of MS every time I spec pvp?) Dailies, even as a relatively efficient gold source, feel really monotonous and every time I do that stupid skettis bombing run I think about other fun things I could be doing right now instead. :P


-- Z.

[Rasix]

Free respecs have kept me in the game longer, as long as they could manage to make it so you don't have repurchase skill/spell ranks every time you did it.  That just gets annoying.  Some folks don't have time to do the daily quests.. well.. daily.  It would have been very handy to be able to spec resto/feral as my guildies needed it instead of trying to tank/heal in the less optimal balance spec.

My "piss off I don't want to group" reply would have to end up being "I'm going to log off soon" rather than "sorry, moonkin".

[Jayce]

I think it'd be a terrible idea.  There is some immersion to my reasoning.. I don't see it as how the character "grew up" , but what he's concentrating on at the moment.  Also, if you provide respecs for free, why not just make all talents available to all characters at all times?  Why wasn't it designed that way from the beginning?  For that matter, why not just provide a vendor that gives free epics? OK, that last one was a joke.

But really, I think the answer is that it gives you some semblance of strategic choices.  If you want to respec frequently you need to set yourself up with a gold stream.  If you can figure out how to spec to do two things well, you have an advantage.  It makes things more interesting.

That's from my perspective as someone who would never have time to do PvP, raid and 5 mans in the same night.  I barely get to do all three in the same week.  If you spend 12 hours a day in game and are reaching for something to do, I can see the attraction, but I don't have a lot of sympathy.

[Dren]

I did think of the 2 spec idea mentioned that is in EQ2 (I didn't know that,) while writing what I did, but didn't want to complicate things or lead the discussion.  I do think having two spec builds with all related training saved would be a good compromise.  Pay in full 2 full specs that could be toggled for a minimal cost at a special NPC in the major cities could be the solution.

To compromise, any changes to those 2 spec builds would have normal costs associated, but toggling them would just be something in the order of 30 silver.  Make the toggle requirement in the cities to prevent surprise changes during combat.

That seems viable to me.

[Venkman]

I'd love to see multiple-specs, like the TR cloning thing. However, even with the 25g respec cost, the bigger investment is the gear itself. Building up multiple sets of gear relevant to different specs is no small task for some classes, depending on the role you'll play.

I think it'd better if they just allowed players to clone their character, even if they charged $25 for it or something. I'm not advocating they charge for it of course. But short of serious competition entering the genre with this feature enabled, there's no compulsion at all for Blizzard to actually do it otherwise.

[Dren]

I think it'd be a terrible idea.  There is some immersion to my reasoning.. I don't see it as how the character "grew up" , but what he's concentrating on at the moment.  Also, if you provide respecs for free, why not just make all talents available to all characters at all times?  Why wasn't it designed that way from the beginning?  For that matter, why not just provide a vendor that gives free epics? OK, that last one was a joke.

But really, I think the answer is that it gives you some semblance of strategic choices.  If you want to respec frequently you need to set yourself up with a gold stream.  If you can figure out how to spec to do two things well, you have an advantage.  It makes things more interesting.

That's from my perspective as someone who would never have time to do PvP, raid and 5 mans in the same night.  I barely get to do all three in the same week.  If you spend 12 hours a day in game and are reaching for something to do, I can see the attraction, but I don't have a lot of sympathy.

I play in no longer than 2 hour increments 3-4 times a week now.  When trying to get a group together in my guild at any given time it always comes down to lacking a healer or a tank or both.  Nobody plays enough to keep a gold stream going to go change specs on a whim, so we are stuck not playing.

As far as immersion?  You are entitled to your opinion, but WoW lost that a very long time ago.  You say yourself that people respec all the time now, but that seems to only be fine if they are able to afford it?  I have a problem with saying you have to "earn" the right to respec at will.

Doing dailies for over an hour to get 100 gold is not a trivial thing for me or countless other casual players.  I'm not saying I won't do it periodically, but I'm doing it to save up for something big like an elite mount, not the ability to respec when I want.

[ajax34i]

It sounds like a good idea, and it will make it a lot easier to switch between raid-ready, grind-ready, and PvP-ready, provided that one actually has the gear needed in each case.  Talents don't really mean that much if you're not geared, and getting the gear is still what's most time-consuming about the whole thing.  I'd go for free respecs, sure, but I'd also like enough bag space for 3 sets of gear (and I suppose we already have the mods for switching between the sets easily, even if that feature isn't supported by the Blizzard UI).

I think that free respecs is like giving everyone 122 talent points instead of 61; they might as well do that and save us the trouble of having to click/reclick.  Also, remember that some talents give you rank 1 of a spell, and you then have to go to the trainer to get ranks 2-6 or whatever, so respeccing won't be "instant" for everyone.

[Dren]

I'd love to see multiple-specs, like the TR cloning thing. However, even with the 25g respec cost, the bigger investment is the gear itself. Building up multiple sets of gear relevant to different specs is no small task for some classes, depending on the role you'll play.

I think it'd better if they just allowed players to clone their character, even if they charged $25 for it or something. I'm not advocating they charge for it of course. But short of serious competition entering the genre with this feature enabled, there's no compulsion at all for Blizzard to actually do it otherwise.

Other than prolonging subs...

[Dren]

Allowing characters to have 2/3 the talents all the time is a pretty big change that would throw balance way out the door.  This might not be a big deal for a lot of classes but think about a Paladin that is specced in both heavy healing and protection.

Gear is a big deal, but for Paladins that would be huge thing towards unbalancing themselves.  Hell, druids could do Boomkin/Feral?

Jumping from just allowing a certain build at a time to having 2 builds all the time together is a pretty big leap.

[Chenghiz]

I don't see how free respecs would really change gameplay at all if you still had to go to a trainer. That would preclude silly on-the-fly respecs and keep the analogy from breaking, for what that's worth.

[Jayce]

As far as immersion?  You are entitled to your opinion, but WoW lost that a very long time ago.

I'm under no illusions that WoW is some kind of roleplaying mecca, but I think there is more to the immersion thing than you give it credit for.

In this case specifically I'm thinking of identity issues.  My main is a 70 frost mage.  That's how I identify my character in the game, and it defines some stuff I can do and what I'm good at.  If respecs were free, it would only make sense to say that I have a 70 mage.  What do you want me to specialize in today?  To me that removes some of the individuality of the character.

That very issue is why some games don't (or didn't) allow respecs at all; if you don't like your build, roll a new character. That has merit, but the downside of course is that you don't know how to play, by definition, when you are making the choices that matter.  So how do you balance the two requirements?  Make it painful, but not too painful, to respec.  Sure, there are people who "abuse" the system by having enough time to play that they can have their cake (big ticket items like epic mount) and eat it too (respec all the time).  IMO, that's more a problem than a feature that I'd want to see made available to the masses.

[slog]

As far as immersion?  You are entitled to your opinion, but WoW lost that a very long time ago.

I'm under no illusions that WoW is some kind of roleplaying mecca, but I think there is more to the immersion thing than you give it credit for.

In this case specifically I'm thinking of identity issues.  My main is a 70 frost mage.  That's how I identify my character in the game, and it defines some stuff I can do and what I'm good at.  If respecs were free, it would only make sense to say that I have a 70 mage.  What do you want me to specialize in today?  To me that removes some of the individuality of the character.

That very issue is why some games don't (or didn't) allow respecs at all; if you don't like your build, roll a new character. That has merit, but the downside of course is that you don't know how to play, by definition, when you are making the choices that matter.  So how do you balance the two requirements?  Make it painful, but not too painful, to respec.  Sure, there are people who "abuse" the system by having enough time to play that they can have their cake (big ticket items like epic mount) and eat it too (respec all the time).  IMO, that's more a problem than a feature that I'd want to see made available to the masses.

I don't see the problem here.  No one would be forcing players to respec.  If you like your toon the way it is, don't change it.

[Nebu]

I have a crazy idea, why not just make the specs more balanced such that they are viable in BOTH environments?  Oh, I know why... because YOU CAN'T HAVE BALANCED PVP WHEN IT'S NOTHING MORE THAN A PLAY SYSTEM TACKED ON TO A PVE GAME!

 

[Venkman]

That's a lot more work than free respecs, particularly with the whole new class coming.

People always complain about the ability of other players to make choices. The whole get-off-my-grass everyone-does-as-I-do-so-I-can-win crap. Screw that noise. Nobody's going to quit WoW if they implement free respec. There's no logical reason why this'd be a universally bad thing. And there's a bunch of logical reasons why they should do it.

Unfortunately, there's also the big $$$ reason why they probably don't see the need to ;)

[Dren]

  My main is a 70 frost mage.  That's how I identify my character in the game, and it defines some stuff I can do and what I'm good at. 

Not to drag this out too much, but mages are one of the classes that would benefit the least from free respecs.  I don't see a driving need to have them change around really.

Can you DPS with any build?
Can you AOE with any build?
Can you sheep with any build?
Yep, you're good.

Although, I can foresee an issue with Frost Mages in the upcoming expansion.  Seems like all those new creatures living in the frozen north might not be all that affected by cold spells.

I see this as a boon to healers and tanks only really.  The Hybrids would be affected the most really.

[Jayce]

Well, my new main is a warrior, so I would benefit from it, but I still don't like it.  There is some persistence to the game, some worldiness to an otherwise very game-y product, and I like that part.  I'm not a fan of any move toward being more gamey and less worldy.

I'd probably be more open to it if it were like Planetside with their 24 hour timer, but free respec.  What would you think of that? 

[Dren]

Well, my new main is a warrior, so I would benefit from it, but I still don't like it.  There is some persistence to the game, some worldiness to an otherwise very game-y product, and I like that part.  I'm not a fan of any move toward being more gamey and less worldy.

I'd probably be more open to it if it were like Planetside with their 24 hour timer, but free respec.  What would you think of that? 

Time limit wouldn't be a big deal if that was the compromise I'd have to take.  I tend to go more towards gamey than worldly though so I'd rather it just be open and free.

We'll just agree to disagree on this.  I used to care more for the "wordly" part of MMO's, but with age and responsibility (kids, etc) creeping in on me that has faded.  I look to MMO's for more of a quick sessional fix, but long term persistence.  That's why anything that gets in the way of me logging in and getting something done in an hour session hurts my enjoyment of the game.

Free respecs would help in just one aspect of this with tailoring groups on the fly to speed up instance startups.  It just irks me to see my guild having 10-20 people logged in every single night, but not a single instance being done.  I just feel there needs to be more reasons we can group together rather than can't.

[Nebu]

Seems like an easy fix would be to create an item that grants a free respec and either have it drop (mob or quest loot) or perhaps have it craftable by engineers (since they don't have much to do as it is). 

I think respecs should be conviently obtained but they should require some mechanism to obtain such that the decisions in respeccing are still at least minimally meaningful. 

[Paelos]

Seems like an easy fix would be to create an item that grants a free respec and either have it drop (mob or quest loot) or perhaps have it craftable by engineers (since they don't have much to do as it is). 

I think respecs should be conviently obtained but they should require some mechanism to obtain such that the decisions in respeccing are still at least minimally meaningful. 

Have them drop off the last boss of heroics like Nethers. That would work for me.

[Xanthippe]

Seems like an easy fix would be to create an item that grants a free respec and either have it drop (mob or quest loot) or perhaps have it craftable by engineers (since they don't have much to do as it is). 

I think respecs should be conviently obtained but they should require some mechanism to obtain such that the decisions in respeccing are still at least minimally meaningful. 

Have them drop off the last boss of heroics like Nethers. That would work for me.

Only the elite get to play, eh?

[Merusk]

Seems like an easy fix would be to create an item that grants a free respec and either have it drop (mob or quest loot) or perhaps have it craftable by engineers (since they don't have much to do as it is). 

I think respecs should be conviently obtained but they should require some mechanism to obtain such that the decisions in respeccing are still at least minimally meaningful. 

Have them drop off the last boss of heroics like Nethers. That would work for me.

Only the elite get to play, eh?

Heroics aren't that hard.. really.  If you've got blue gear, you can run them just not in quest greens.  The cockblock used to be the grind for rep, but with the change to 'honored' you can get the key just doing quests while leveling.

[Paelos]

Seems like an easy fix would be to create an item that grants a free respec and either have it drop (mob or quest loot) or perhaps have it craftable by engineers (since they don't have much to do as it is). 

I think respecs should be conviently obtained but they should require some mechanism to obtain such that the decisions in respeccing are still at least minimally meaningful. 

Have them drop off the last boss of heroics like Nethers. That would work for me.

Only the elite get to play, eh?

You know, I understand you hate my raiding politics, but COME ON. Heroics? They are five mans for god's sake. If you do nothing but solo all the time, why the hell would you care about respeccing so much?

[Mazakiel]

Heroics, except for maybe some of the level 70 5 mans, really aren't that hard at all.  You just need to devote half your attention to the instance instead of just dozing through it. 

PUGing them could suck, sure, but it's not like that's any different than running them non Heroic. 

[Ironwood]

I'd actually like to point out that, for the first time, I ran some of the Tempest Keep heroics last night.

They aren't as hard as the others.

Seriously.


I don't know if it's because the 'Normal' versions were quite challenging or what, but I breezed through Botanica.  Odd.

[Zetor]

Heroic Botanica is perhaps one of the easiest ones (the satyr boss can be nasty). Heroic Mech isn't too hard either... but the first boss in Heroic Arc was a horrible, scarring experience. 

For other heroics, Slave Pens / Steamvault / Ramparts [for the most part] are also easy, but I don't want to pug Shadow Labyrinth / Crypts / Durnholde / Black Morass / Shattered Halls, ever.


-- Z.

[Ironwood]

I never want to run Shattered Halls ever again, never mind Heroic.

It's the worst one they made for the expansion.  And the end boss gives me headaches due to the fucking lava you fight over.

[Dren]

Considering I'm suggesting free respecs due to the fact it is difficult to get groups formed, I really don't support making grouping be the requirement for free respecs.  If you are able to get a group together and run a heroic quest, free respecs probably isn't a big deal to you.

[Jayce]

I almost suggested that, or making a sellable or craftable token, but I realized that those solutions are just layers of complexity on top of what we already have. 

In the time you run an instance to get a respec token, you could have farmed 50g for a respec under the current system.  If you have to craft or buy it, that's just a variation on the current pay-directly-to-NPC-vendor system.


On another note, I think I came up with my core objection to it, weak as you may believe it to be: it doesn't fit with the tone of the game as I see it.  That's hard to put into concrete terms because it's more of an artistic, fuzzy, gut feeling sort of answer, but there it is.

[Venkman]

It's not whether Heroics are easy or hard enough to support a drop-based respec system. It's just how much that breaks down into "time". It could take someone 25g worth of time to get a Heroic run group together. So keep the current system and do the drop.

And yes, soloers want to respec too, just because they can.

[Fordel]

People always say Heroic Mech is easy, but I'll be damned if I know the secret to making those little bomb tossing demons not take out one of my group every pull without using a Lock or Priest to MC something to die for the cause. Please tell me, pretty please 



Shattered Halls is the Paladin Tank instance. Where warriors and Druids are stressing, Paladins are hitting consecrate+holyshield and snoozing. 95% Melee mobs with little LoS protrusions to easily bring in the other 5% ranged/caster mobs? Sign me up.


The First boss in Heroic arc is basically saying "Tank have a shadow resist suit? No? Get one.". I don't think you actually 'need' one after a certain point gearwise, but it makes it a lot easier.


I think that's my issue with most of the heroics, the difficulty of the dungeon is greater then the gear it produces. Heroics are often 'easy' for the people who don't need the shit that drops in them. They also have too much of the 'You didn't bring a <whatever>? Welp, you're screwed" in class composition. Which is doubly frustrating since mostly the classes/specs that aren't the <whatever> are the ones that can only find gear in the heroic versions for the most part.