Jade Raymond wants to be left alone.

[Samwise]

[schild]

I want to see her and Jade Raymond promote a sports game. I'd be all over that. Shit, it could be Madden and I'd want a piece.

[bhodi]

This thread is still going places.

[Hoax]

I was just reading the PotBS thread, where they STILL have not dropped the NDA.  Any injustice involving Ms Raymond pales in comparison to this bullshit where in the final month leading up to launch games still are locked down under NDA.

Lets tackle the real evil shit in this industry before we start worrying about how the 8 girls in it are being treated by the anonymous masses on the internet kthxbai

[DarkSign]

Ok. Let's figure some things out.



Seriously though, in the legal profession we describe this as "knew or should have known."

• Does putting a hawt person in lots of interviews necessarily whoring? No.
• Should a hawt chick be taken seriously when discussing the game she helped produced. Yes.
• Is a producer in her position often used to give game interviews? Often enough.
• Would there be better people to describe the game? Arguably yes. They all know the inner workings of the whole thing.
• Should she have known that she was chosen for how HAWT    she is?  Yes.
• Did she think it was going to go this far? No.
• Is she reaping what people in the media have often gotten, despite it being unfair? Of course.

Either she knew this kind of stuff was going to happen and just made a gametime decision that it wasnt going to be that bad or she should have known. Their marketing guys/gals most likely didnt shove her into this with out some sort of agreement. She just didnt think it was going to be this bad.

Did she deserve what she got? Nope. Did she whore herself? Whore is too harsh a word. But she knew she was trading on her looks. She deserved some ribbing but not cries of whore or drawings of fellatio.

[bhodi]

More pics, less talky!

[Yegolev]

More pics, less talky!

Oh, lawlz... I cry foul.

[DarkSign]

Morgan Webb Nude

Well sort of.

[HaemishM]

The only people making a big deal of her are the chicken littles that can't handle an attractive woman being in a position of power.  Would it be different if her ass was the size of my four wheeler?  Yeah, it would, noone would give a damn.

You know what else could have made this different besides four-wheeler ass?

Her ignoring the original comic completely like the immature, half-wit joke that it was. Sending out C&D's just made a mountain out of a goddamn microbe.

If you are going to be the public face of ANYTHING with a fanbase, you better be prepared to get some seriously hurtful ridicule. Fuck, ask Raph... I'm sure a comic with jizz on his face would be heavensent as opposed to the "developers should be shot" comments that Internet assholes like me have leveled at SWG.

She was the victim of some meanies and she boo hooed. The Internet hates crybabies, no matter how justified they might be. But the Internet LOVES them some drama.

[Xanthippe]

I haven't heard that Jade Raymond responded at all.  Ubisoft's lawyers did.  Huge difference there.

[HaemishM]

I would be extremely surprised if she did not at least have some say in that decision.

[SnakeCharmer]

The only people making a big deal of her are the chicken littles that can't handle an attractive woman being in a position of power.  Would it be different if her ass was the size of my four wheeler?  Yeah, it would, noone would give a damn.

You know what else could have made this different besides four-wheeler ass?

Her ignoring the original comic completely like the immature, half-wit joke that it was. Sending out C&D's just made a mountain out of a goddamn microbe.

If you are going to be the public face of ANYTHING with a fanbase, you better be prepared to get some seriously hurtful ridicule. Fuck, ask Raph... I'm sure a comic with jizz on his face would be heavensent as opposed to the "developers should be shot" comments that Internet assholes like me have leveled at SWG.

She was the victim of some meanies and she boo hooed. The Internet hates crybabies, no matter how justified they might be. But the Internet LOVES them some drama.

See Xan's reply.

I haven't heard that Jade Raymond responded at all.  Ubisoft's lawyers did.  Huge difference there.

It's everybody else making the fuss and coming to her defense.  

Which, um, they probably wouldn't do if she wasn't a good looking woman.  Yanno, male chivalry and rush to her defense and all that - which is amplified 100000 times on interweb forums.

[stray]

Hey I resent that. I've come to the defense of many ugly people in my time.

[CmdrSlack]

Seriously though, in the legal profession we describe this as "knew or should have known."

• Does putting a hawt person in lots of interviews necessarily whoring? No.
• Should a hawt chick be taken seriously when discussing the game she helped produced. Yes.
• Is a producer in her position often used to give game interviews? Often enough.
• Would there be better people to describe the game? Arguably yes. They all know the inner workings of the whole thing.
• Should she have known that she was chosen for how HAWT    she is?  Yes.
• Did she think it was going to go this far? No.
• Is she reaping what people in the media have often gotten, despite it being unfair? Of course.

Either she knew this kind of stuff was going to happen and just made a gametime decision that it wasnt going to be that bad or she should have known. Their marketing guys/gals most likely didnt shove her into this with out some sort of agreement. She just didnt think it was going to be this bad.

Did she deserve what she got? Nope. Did she whore herself? Whore is too harsh a word. But she knew she was trading on her looks. She deserved some ribbing but not cries of whore or drawings of fellatio.

I gotta call bullshit on your analysis. It's not a knew or should have known kind of thing unless you're trying to make an analogy to her expectations about being in the limelight. That doesn't make the subsequent treatment and derision in the community right. If she was actually sexually harassed at work, would she be in a "knew or should have known" situation because, well, hot chicks are asking for it?

If she was the most media-forward person to promote the game, there's nothing wrong with her doing what plenty of producers do -- promote the game. It's entirely coincidental that she's attractive, IMO. I know it's all hip to be jaded and cynical, but the real stooges here are the moron who made the comic and the Ubitorneys who sent the pointless C&D letter. Should she be offended by the comic? Probably. Did she send the C&D herself? No, and I doubt she even was consulted. For Ubi, this is "bad press" and they're going to try and stifle it, regardless of whether it's protected speech.

When it comes to sexist douchebaggery, I just don't think "knew or should have known" in any way mitigates the douchebaggery. For fuck's sake, since she's an attractive woman in a male-dominated industry was she "assuming the risk" that her job would be the "proximate cause" of some "intentionally inflicted emotional distress?"

 

[DarkSign]

Go to the end of my post, rocket-man, where I say:

Did she deserve what she got? Nope. Did she whore herself? Whore is too harsh a word. But she knew she was trading on her looks. She deserved some ribbing but not cries of whore or drawings of fellatio.

She knew or should have known she'd be some kind of target for bad press. The trade-off of "use looks for sales" earns you some-a-dat.
But she doesnt deserve cum on her face. If my mother or sister or wife had that done to them, I'd be the first one lined up to kick their ass.

I guess what Im saying is that for everyone that's on the other side of the argument (the side saying she's not a whore (which I dont think she is)) you have to admit that there's a bell going off for everyone that she did a bit of trading looks for sales. Be honest with yourself.

[stray]

I think she's cute in a girl next door kind of way, but not smoking hot to the point where she might consciously make decisions on using it for some giant marketing ploy.

Or to put it shortly, I doubt she herself thinks she's that hot.

[CmdrSlack]

Go to the end of my post, rocket-man, where I say:

Did she deserve what she got? Nope. Did she whore herself? Whore is too harsh a word. But she knew she was trading on her looks. She deserved some ribbing but not cries of whore or drawings of fellatio.

She knew or should have known she'd be some kind of target for bad press. The trade-off of "use looks for sales" earns you some-a-dat.
But she doesnt deserve cum on her face. If my mother or sister or wife had that done to them, I'd be the first one lined up to kick their ass.

I guess what Im saying is that for everyone that's on the other side of the argument (the side saying she's not a whore (which I dont think she is)) you have to admit that there's a bell going off for everyone that she did a bit of trading looks for sales. Be honest with yourself.

See, I just don't buy that.

You can't possibly know her intent, and quite honestly, it's not uncommon for producers to promote their games. Was she really trading on her looks? If there was some male producer that was attractive, would he be trading on his looks? If she had tank ass, this would be a non-issue. What made it an issue were the drooling jizz moppers who blogged about how hot she is and how great she smells. Saying that she should have known she'd get hassle or be the object of intarweb fapping may be technically accurate -- we can all expect that behavior. However, we shouldn't accept that behavior and the fact that it's almost a given does not excuse it nor does it minimize what discomfort it may have caused her.

By assuming that she knowingly banked on her looks to drive sales, your "knew or should have known" argument comes off like you're excusing the behavior, no matter what caveats you tack on at the end.

ETA -- tacking on the legal standard just makes that much more distasteful and weaselly, btw.  So once again, I give you the 

[DarkSign]

I cant possibly know her intent, but I can give her the credit a person in her place deserves. Put another way, how can she possibly not do this equation :I know other gamer girls get used for beauty + I know this medium is for young boys + I know how much EA will use me in the press + I know that Im reasonably over average in the looks department = I'll get some grief.

Are you seriously saying that someone in the public eye should be treated like a private person. Hint: The law doesnt. And Im giving her the benefit of the doubt that she has a brain and recognizes all this.  Surely when movie stars are caught in the tabloids, they know at least some of what they're getting into. Jade is hardly a movie star, but spokespeople have to be ready for such things.

I really dont care if you believe my personal caveats. That's your decision. I didnt care for the cartoon at all. I'm merely saying that being a public spokesperson carries with it the knowledge of some public ribbing.

[Mosesandstick]

I'm not sure if this is due to the gaming media, but I think I've heard the term "Jade Raymond's team" before. It seems quite untypical for what is essentially an unknown producer to have her name bantered around like that, and that might be due to the media.

I'm surprised no one has picked up on this angle - but maybe the comic was about the way the media and the public responded to Jade (or is that too deep? I have no clue what that chugworth guy is like)

Practically everything we recieve is filtered through the media. I'm pretty sure all the gaming webbies would rather have Jade talking about Assassin's Creed than the lead designer. The fact that we see a lot of Jade is not necessarily her fault, simply for being an attractive woman in a male-dominated industry puts her in a spotlight. Albeit I do think Ubisoft i milking her for all she is worth, this lawsuit has only put assassin's creed at the front of everyone's minds.

I have to ask, how typical is it for the producer to be giving all the talks and that sort of thing? Her being producer would seem to imply she makes some of the executive decisions, where were the talks by the designers? I for one don't see her as that articulate or a good speaker, though obviously she isn't brainless.

The comic is unfair in the way it sexualises her role, but that is something the media has done and nobody seemed to really complain until someone 'blatantly' does it (the comic could just be a comment on Jade's portrayal in the public :P). I don't think whoever was responsible at ubisoft cared about her portrayal. If you ask me now that someone has gone and explicitly made the connection between Jade's attractiveness and her being the public face for a game, ubisoft makes a huge issue out of it, as if to cover their asses and say they weren't exploiting her looks (this is done in practically every media outlet - it really doesn't need to be discussed).

[Megrim]

I'm not sure if this is due to the gaming media, but I think I've heard the term "Jade Raymond's team" before. It seems quite untypical for what is essentially an unknown producer to have her name bantered around like that, and that might be due to the media.

I'm surprised no one has picked up on this angle - but maybe the comic was about the way the media and the public responded to Jade (or is that too deep? I have no clue what that chugworth guy is like)

Practically everything we recieve is filtered through the media. I'm pretty sure all the gaming webbies would rather have Jade talking about Assassin's Creed than the lead designer. The fact that we see a lot of Jade is not necessarily her fault, simply for being an attractive woman in a male-dominated industry puts her in a spotlight. Albeit I do think Ubisoft i milking her for all she is worth, this lawsuit has only put assassin's creed at the front of everyone's minds.

I have to ask, how typical is it for the producer to be giving all the talks and that sort of thing? Her being producer would seem to imply she makes some of the executive decisions, where were the talks by the designers? I for one don't see her as that articulate or a good speaker, though obviously she isn't brainless.

The comic is unfair in the way it sexualises her role, but that is something the media has done and nobody seemed to really complain until someone 'blatantly' does it (the comic could just be a comment on Jade's portrayal in the public :P). I don't think whoever was responsible at ubisoft cared about her portrayal. If you ask me now that someone has gone and explicitly made the connection between Jade's attractiveness and her being the public face for a game, ubisoft makes a huge issue out of it, as if to cover their asses and say they weren't exploiting her looks (this is done in practically every media outlet - it really doesn't need to be discussed).

This had been my immediate impression too.

Soooo.. anyone going to answer my question? Bloody fat lot of useful e-lawyers you lot are!

[Samwise]

After going and digging up the comic, my impression is very much that the comic was more of a commentary on the media portrayal than it was on Raymond herself.  Not that this means she can't/shouldn't be offended, but I don't think she was really the primary target of ridicule.  The guys in the comic were the butt of the joke IMO.

[rk47]

so if i like...post a comic of uh..let's say Pete Hines getting a media blow job from game reviewers...cause he gave em 50 bucks. Would that make Bethesda sue my ass and the internet defend him? 

Yeah he's pretty too.

[Ixxit]

After going and digging up the comic, my impression is very much that the comic was more of a commentary on the media portrayal than it was on Raymond herself.

I don't think that's the case since in the first frame of the comic has her acting stupid, unable to pronounce creator.  I don't think that Ubi or the media has ever portrayed her has being an airhead.  In fact if people actually listened to what she has to say in any of the interviews, she is the complete opposite.  No this comic was clearly the work of a misogynist geek who while commenting on Jade's alleged upcoming Maxim shoot (which was a rumour started by some other misogynist geek) sought to characterize what he thought of a woman who invaded the sacrosact 'old boys club' of computer game development:  a willing jizz receptacle for sexually repressed losers everywhere.

That said, the comic has a right to exist  and Ubi made a big mistake with the cease and desist for obvious reasons.

[Samwise]

I don't think that's the case since in the first frame of the comic has her acting stupid, unable to pronounce creator.

Which is obviously not how she really is.  She is also drawn in the infamous fictional green and white Maxim bikini.  Which is why I don't think the comic is poking fun at Raymond herself but at the media portrayal/geek fantasy version of her.  And more so at the pimply nerds who buy into it and equate spending money on a game that a girl made with sexual gratification.

[schild]

"Your game feels so good! Uguu!"

[stray]

I'm not sure how it's denigrating the geeks in that comic, when it's her face being slapped, so to speak. On the other hand, the geeks seem to be getting a good deal.

Hell, I'm not even sure those geeks are based on anything real -- I mean, are there people out there actually buying Assassin's Creed solely because of Jade Raymond? Was this some kind of big problem that even needed "commentary"? Don't think so.

[DarkSign]

I don't think that's the case since in the first frame of the comic has her acting stupid, unable to pronounce creator.

Which is obviously not how she really is.  She is also drawn in the infamous fictional green and white Maxim bikini.  Which is why I don't think the comic is poking fun at Raymond herself but at the media portrayal/geek fantasy version of her.  And more so at the pimply nerds who buy into it and equate spending money on a game that a girl made with sexual gratification.

Then you didnt see the version where she's naked I guess. Naked and covered in spooge is never uplifting.
I do think that gamers are being poked fun at a bit, but it's much much MUCH worse to get what she got.

[Sjofn]

Wow, it's like 1965 all over again.

When is the games industry going to grow up and join the rest of the adult world - the one where women, even attractive women, have jobs and talk to the public without being called whores?

I don't know, but I wish it would fucking hurry up already.

[Hoax]

For real all you people acting like this is proof positive we live in 1965...

Go play with your buddies:

http://www.gamegirladvance.com/archives/2007/11/16/jade_raymond_is_for_real.html

 

It is dangerous to be a beautiful woman in the games industry. Oh, it's difficult to be a woman, period. But if you also happen to be attractive, you are doubly cursed. On the one hand, yes, when you're at a conference where you are among a handful of women, you are remembered, and that is advantageous. But for every break you may get for being female and attractive you get a chorus of voices telling you that you don't deserve it because, well, you are attractive, and obviously you can't possibly have gotten where you are without seducing men along the way. And I am devastated to say that sometimes joining in those voices are other women.

[schild]

You know what I love about this kind of argument where looks are pretty much the only basis for it?

When a girl stands up for a girl, it's just completely obvious bias.
When a guy stands up for the girl, he's obviously hoping she'll see that and give him a go.

No one can win, except the people who feel no sympathy at all. Mostly because, at the end of the day, we just don't give a fuck.

[Samwise]

Then you didnt see the version where she's naked I guess.

Was there a press conference she appeared at naked that I missed?  The point stands.  It's obviously complete fantasy/caricature, too absurd to be seriously associated with the real person.  Unless she did do a naked press conference in real life.  In which case, pics plz.

On the other hand, the geeks seem to be getting a good deal.

No they don't, because buying a game does not actually get you a blowjob from the producer.  The joke's on them.

[Samwise]

so if i like...post a comic of uh..let's say Pete Hines getting a media blow job from game reviewers...cause he gave em 50 bucks. Would that make Bethesda sue my ass and the internet defend him? 

Only one way to find out.

[stray]

You know what I love about this kind of argument where looks are pretty much the only basis for it?

When a girl stands up for a girl, it's just completely obvious bias.
When a guy stands up for the girl, he's obviously hoping she'll see that and give him a go.

No one can win, except the people who feel no sympathy at all. Mostly because, at the end of the day, we just don't give a fuck.

I don't sympathize with many issues women raise, but I do in Jade's case. She just shouldn't get discredited simply for being good looking.

[Samwise]

I agree.  Then again, Gabe Newell shouldn't be discredited because he's overweight, and I haven't seen any of these Internet White Knights jumping to his defense.  And he's a much more popular target.

Internet, serious business.  That's about what it comes down to.

[stray]

I don't think he should get shit for that either, but I still think he's a jerk otherwise. Or maybe he's just that way because of the jokes. Who knows..