Jade Raymond wants to be left alone.

[Xanthippe]

This thread is full of irony.

[Megrim]

Ok, ok, serious question. Since we have many legal types on f13, could one of them elaborate on the validity of Ubisoft sending a letter to Lowtax? The reason i ask, is this:


  The stories in the "Celebrity" section of Literotica are all fictional parodies - none are true, nor are they approved of by the celebrities named in the stories. Authors write these fictitious stories about famous people for the same reason that Larry Flynt made fun of Jerry Falwell, because they can. The Supreme Court of the United States, the country where this site is located, has ruled that parodies involving famous people are perfectly and totally legal under the United States Constitution. The specific case law on this was decided in the case of "Hustler Magazine, Inc. et al. v. Jerry Falwell" in 1988. No harm is intended toward the celebrities featured in these stories, but they are public figures and in being so, they must accept that they are fair target for parodies by the public. We believe in the first amendment, and more broadly, in the basic principle of free speech and this section may push the boundaries of that principle, but the United States Supreme Court has approved of this type of material. We believe that the Supreme Court was correct in their decision.


This is pulled from the Celebrities section of Literotica (for those that aren't aware, a text-only erotic site - NSFW obviously). Is her (Jade) 'image' public domain for the visual medium as well?


 * Edit:

This thread is full of irony.

If i may ask, do you agree/disagree with the initial blog post, and if so, why or why not? (The reason i ask is out of personal interest, since i am currently working with notions of Ethics in my philosophy work at uni.)

[Margalis]

I don't see how anyone can take a lot of issue with the post.

The comic is lame as was the creepy Kotaku post.

[UnSub]

I think I should register jadedefenseforce.com in hopes she'll let me stick it in her pooper.

With any luck Ubisoft will fire her as a result of this controversy, she'll be unable to find work elsewhere in gaming and will be so down and depressed that you'll have a shot at this schild. 

[Samwise]

I take issue with the implication that random_internet_fuckward_01 is single-handedly keeping women out of the game industry by drawing offensive pictures.

Quick, someone draw a comic that features Will Wright orally pleasuring teenage girls so he can get them to play Spore.  It'll drive a bunch of men out of the game industry and balance can be restored.

[UnSub]

So, some random internet fuckwad makes an offensive drawing, so therefore the entire industry is full of frothing misogynists, and if you don't acknowledge that you're part of the problem.  Does that about sum it up?

More like "internet jerk makes offensive drawing, other mysoginist internet jerks link it approvingly, Ubisoft hits the wrong nest of jerks and fires up a goon swarm, issues raised about women being able to work in games if everything they do is going to be sexualised, and yeah, this is actually a problem".

[Margalis]

I take issue with the implication that random_internet_fuckward_01 is single-handedly keeping women out of the game industry by drawing offensive pictures.

Good thing nobody actually implied that.

[Big Gulp]

More like "internet jerk makes offensive drawing, other mysoginist internet jerks link it approvingly

I linked it, but not because I approve of the comic or even found it particluarly clever.  There's better ways to lampoon the whole "Jade is Hawt!" marketing campaign without heading into bukkake territory.  The whole point is that as stupid as it is, that strip is protected speech.  I'm actually surprised that Lowtax caved as fast as he did.  Usually he'd just use it as an excuse to fire off a Leonard J. Crabs response.

[tazelbain]

Since free speech is out the window lets talk about people who make games about a Muslim who kill Christians. Oh wait...

[Samwise]

I take issue with the implication that random_internet_fuckward_01 is single-handedly keeping women out of the game industry by drawing offensive pictures.

Good thing nobody actually implied that.

Last paragraph of the article:

I think Raymond has every right to want pornographic comics about her off the Internet, even if it’s futile. But I don’t think Ubisoft sending cease-and-desist letters to Something Awful is going to help at all; it’s nothing Lowtax and other sewer-of-the-Internet site administrators haven’t seen before. The only thing you can do is point out what a hostile environment this creates for women in the game industry. The treatment of Jade Raymond sends a message to female developers everywhere that is what will happen if you’re “too pretty” and “too well-known” and “talk too much,” even if you conduct yourself with utter professionalism. Game industry execs often bemoan the dearth of female game developers and players, the gender-lopsidedness of their teams. This story ought to show them a very concrete reason why there’s a lack of women in some parts of gaming. A change in culture is way overdue.

Stupid drawings create a hostile environment, and that hostile environment keeps women from playing or making games.  That's the argument being made here.

Actually, the part that really irritates me is that last sentence about "a change in culture".  It shifts the responsibility from the actual Internet fuckwad to everyone else in "the culture", whatever that is.  Basically, every male gamer in the world is supposd to feel vaguely guilty about something that some random Scottish guy put on his deviantart site.  This in turn is supposed to lead to a "change in culture" and make it so women can make games again.

At least, that seems to me like the basic thrust of the article.

(edit) And you know what the worst part of it is?  This is just feeding the goddamn troll.

[Margalis]

Actually, the part that really irritates me is that last sentence about "a change in culture". 

Let me rephrase your complaints:

1. The piece unfairly blames an entire culture.
2. The piece implies that "random_internet_fuckward_01 is single-handedly keeping women out of the game industry."

Those are mutually exclusive.

The point of the piece is that "random_internet_fuckward_01" is representative of a culture. You can disagree with that but your complaints are incoherent.

I've seen plenty of pictures and vids of game devs, yet I've never heard anyone complain that male devs were whoring themselves out or that they weren't even real game developers because they appeared in video. And honestly all I've seen of this person is her picture on boards and some interview vids. I don't see how pathetic masturbating teens posting your picture a lot consists of "whoring yourself out" or how appearing in video interviews is anything other than an increasingly common practice.

It is very true that she is being sexualized just because she is an attractive girl, and that obviously is a downer to working in the industry. And if she was unattractive she would be scrutinized for her looks. SpecialJ had it exactly right:

Should she have worn a burkha?

Remember ladies, you can work on games but you keep your face away from a camera.  That's men's work.  If you look good it means you're a whore and if you're not then you're a fat pig.  Either way you'll be ridiculed.

[Samwise]

1. The piece unfairly blames an entire culture.
2. The piece implies that "random_internet_fuckward_01 is single-handedly keeping women out of the game industry."

Those are mutually exclusive.

Not if you decide that everything random_internet_fuckwad_01 does can somehow be blamed on everyone else in the world, and that one guy making a dirty drawing is equivalent to every man on earth being a misogynistic pig.

I agree with you that this is nonsensical.

[stray]

Again, I don't understand what's so wrong with Ubi (or herself) using her attractiveness for extra publicity. That's neither whorish, nor is it a downer.

[Samwise]

Nothing wrong with it, but if you put pictures of yourself on the Interwebs, and you are in any way famous, it is a fact of life that you won't like some of the uses to which those pictures are put.

Case in point:



THIS IS WHY THERE AREN'T MORE OVERWEIGHT WHITE MEN IN THE GAME INDUSTRY.  A CULTURE IS AT STEAK!

Mmm.... steak.

[KallDrexx]

I like how they try to make it look like "OMG LOOK AT WOMEN IN THE GAMING INDUSTRY HAVE TO DEAL WITH."  

Sorry, but this is a lot more prevalent in the film and tv industry then it is in the gaming industry.  Yet those industries have women coming all the time.  Sure, way back actresses made it out to be a big deal but then they just learned to shrug it off and keep going.  The only time you hear about it is when an actual photo gets leaked from the acting sessions.  In fact I'd say the stuff that goes on against actresses in the film/tv industries is much worse.

Any good looking woman who puts herself in a high profile position (though mostly in the entertainment industry as younger audience will be following it) people will do crap like this.  Just shrug it off as flattery, move on, and discipline anyone who you work with who brings it into the workplace.

edit: erm bad grammar in one part.

[stray]

Nothing wrong with it, but if you put pictures of yourself on the Interwebs, and you are in any way famous, it is a fact of life that you won't like some of the uses to which those pictures are put.

It probably comes as a shock to her that she's even "famous" enough to get that level of attention. I'm sure that's why they overreacted. NOT because she doesn't want to be considered attractive at all (which is what the woman who wrote that article seems to want to think).

As for the guys calling her a whore -- man, that is jealousy at it's most absurd and pathetic level.

[Tebonas]

So, finally I saw that comic (thanks Gulp) and now I can say what the fuck?

Comic writer gets aroused, he knows he will never get the girl, so he draws a comic as both wish fullfillment and punishment to the girl. That much is plain and clear. The comic is neither funny nor witty.

A "pathetic little creep, get laid" on Jades side would easily have sufficed as an answer to that. But she is the slighted party here and that can lead to some overreaction and exaggerated response. I can only assume people here are so used to calling each other and game developers whores that you don't see the difference it makes calling an actual woman that. For doing the same job that is par for the game industry, only usually its overweighted bearded males.

Get a hold on yourself. Siding with the pathetic creep is never a good idea. And yes, fanfic slash writers are pathetic creeps as well if it is a TV celeb. So what kind of defense is that?

[KallDrexx]

Get a hold on yourself. Siding with the pathetic creep is never a good idea. And yes, fanfic slash writers are pathetic creeps as well if it is a TV celeb. So what kind of defense is that?

Who said anything about siding with him?  This isn't a "you are with us or against us" type of thing.  Things like this will happen.  Blaming the lack of women in the industry on this when this type of thing is something that is much more common in other industries (and hasn't stopped women from entering them) is unproductive to the real issue of why there aren't more women in the industry.  It is something that has been blown up by all sides to be something more then it really is.

[Margalis]

Blaming the lack of women in the industry on this when this type of thing is something that is much more common in other industries (and hasn't stopped women from entering them) is unproductive to the real issue of why there aren't more women in the industry.

I think it is fair to say that games are aimed mostly at juvenile males and that game developers have a mostly juvenile male mindset. Sexism and sexual objectification is pretty bad just in normal software engineering, let alone games.

[KallDrexx]

Sexism and sexual objectification is pretty bad just in normal software engineering, let alone games.

When you are talking about normal software engineering, are you talking about workplace sexism and sexual objectification or sexism in the final product?

[Chenghiz]

Ok, ok, serious question. Since we have many legal types on f13, could one of them elaborate on the validity of Ubisoft sending a letter to Lowtax?

I'm no lawyer, but if ever forum administrator had to vet every piece of text and/or image that was posted on his or her forum, there would be no forums. The image wasn't hosted on somethingawful and wasn't even made by a goon, so I don't see where they have any legitimate hold at all. Also, Lowtax's reply was hilarious.

[Margalis]

Sexism and sexual objectification is pretty bad just in normal software engineering, let alone games.

When you are talking about normal software engineering, are you talking about workplace sexism and sexual objectification or sexism in the final product?

Workplace.

[schild]

You want to know why people are pissed at her and ridicule her to no end? This picture.



This picture is some epic bullshit. Who is the lead designer, lead combat designer, lead artist, and sound director? Do you know? No.

Do you know the producer? Do you know what a producer does? Do you know why this picture never should've gotten taken? I think you doooooooo.

[KallDrexx]

Sexism and sexual objectification is pretty bad just in normal software engineering, let alone games.

When you are talking about normal software engineering, are you talking about workplace sexism and sexual objectification or sexism in the final product?

Workplace.

Right, in the workplace sexism and sexual objectification is a completely separate issue then this though.  Unless it was a coworker who made the comic (it was my understanding it was some random douche on the net) then you can't coorelate this event to being the reason women are not interested in joining the industry, because the other entertainment industries have shown that this type of behavior can happen and not discourage women from participating in those industries.

So yes, sexism in the workplace may very well be what is keeping women from joining the industry (I'm not arguing for or against this point), however the quoted blog clearly tries to state that it's the random retards on the internet that keep women from joining, not fellow employees making a sexually hostile environment.

Furthermore, it's not like women are forced to be pushed in front of the cameras, as if they are that is still workplace sexism and not external sexism.  In a lot of cases the people put in front of cameras are people who have high involvement in the actual game, male or female.  From the interviews of AC I saw, you could see that she was genuinly excited and knowledgable about the game and most likely that is why she talks about it a lot.  I highly doubt she was forced against her will to this.  If they are forcing women to go in front of the camera for the sex appeal, that would again be a workplace reason women aren't joining the industry, not an external.

[Wolf]

snip

Oh. Wow. I hadn't seen that one.



2. WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE PUT HER AT THE FRONT
3. QUICKLY HIDE THE UGGO.

edit: Can you imagine if Jade ever saw a 4chan thread about herself?

[Phildo]

edit: Can you imagine if Jade ever saw a 4chan thread about herself?

I'm sure she, or someone in the office, is aware of 4Chan enough to know about these things.

[Simond]

Now I want to see Ubisoft send a C&D to Moot. Or, more accurately, the aftermath of that. 

[Wolf]

I don't think I want the btards set lose on anyone

[Yegolev]

That's an awesome picture and confirms my belief that Ubisoft really, really doesn't want Jade to be mad at them for her Internet Fame.

[bhodi]

I think it's funny how everyone is ranged in attractiveness in that picture, you have the most attractive looking guys backing her up, but then again they are two big steps behind.

What a retarded photo. Who thought that was a good idea? it looks like she's standing in a "circle of protection: geek"

[Yegolev]

You might be right about the attractiveness thing, but I'd like to point out that both non-white people are up front.  That just makes it funnier, in my opinion.

[bhodi]

Well, yeah. They have to be PC, too. The damn photo looks like it was taken by HR.

[Big Gulp]

You might be right about the attractiveness thing, but I'd like to point out that both non-white people are up front.  That just makes it funnier, in my opinion.

I didn't even notice how they conveniently placed the minorities in the front.  Of course, I wouldn't see that since I'm not a racist.   

[Yegolev]

Of course, I wouldn't see that since I'm not a racist.   

ZING!

[schild]

They had to put the blacks in the front, otherwise they wouldn't have shown up in the picture at all.   

Edit: I prefer this wording.
Edit2: Also, thread, still going places.