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Author Topic: Failgate London or “Why You Don't Outsource Important Services.”  (Read 179302 times)
HaemishM
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Reply #105 on: November 19, 2007, 01:42:44 PM

Quote from: schild
Which is interesting, as it means that no matter how badly they fuck up, your money is theirs.

Welcome to your lifetime subscription.

Seriously, that's why I would never consider a lifetime sub, because I'm never going to play one game for a lifetime. I'm surprised you'd have even considered it because it was labeled as an MMOG. Just labeling it as an MMOG should have let you know it'd be in constant beta state forever, and that all money you pay to play it is gone the minute you pay. MMOG developers don't give refunds, or apologies or anything else.

They might as well call lifetime MMOG subscriptions the "Pay Us Now You Stupid Fuck" tax.

Ratman_tf
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Reply #106 on: November 19, 2007, 03:57:58 PM

Personally, I salute people like Schild who are willing to put up with crappy launch/CS/Billing issues so that I can come in a few months later, after the dust has settled and the bodies are buried, and give the game a try. (In HGL's case, waiting to become a paying subscriber.)

I still contend that someday, some MOG is going to launch and will have zero subscribers, while everyone is waiting for someone to try the game first...  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 03:59:55 PM by Ratman_tf »



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Margalis
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Reply #107 on: November 19, 2007, 05:08:13 PM

There are two reasons to offer a lifetime sub:

1. You are desparate for money up front.
2. You don't think customers will subscribe to your game for very long.

It's a huge warning sign. It shows either lack of resources or lack of confidence by the developers. The developers are betting that you won't subscribe for longer than 10-15 months.

Edit: As far as "how could talented devs produce this mess of a game" I think what we may have here is a John Romero situation. Bill Roper made Schild his bitch.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 05:11:09 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
geldonyetich2
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Reply #108 on: November 19, 2007, 05:20:16 PM

I seem to recall LOTRO has a package like that, too.  That's not a real bad deal for what's essentially a prettier, more lore-intensive WoW.  A pity I'm way too burnt of that kind of game.

My idea of an ideal lifetime subscription is to let players rent to own their lifetime accounts.  In other words, if you have an account active for something like 16-24 months, you've paid enough subscription for one life and get free access on that account.  Now that's what I call a "veteran reward."  Charity aside, it's not totally useless from a business perspective, as you'll be offering incentive for players to stay subscribed for that length of time.  How many players stick with a single game for that long anyway?
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Reply #109 on: November 19, 2007, 05:25:08 PM

I think a lifetime sub to something like HGL is a bit of a rort - having finished the game in <insert number of hours here>, you're only option is to replay it at a higher difficultly level. Yay? As I said elsewhere, HGL is a single player game with delusions of grandeur.

But even taking the idea that perhaps people might be playing HGL for several months, you need to for more than 15 months in order to get that value back (assuming the extras they offer to you aren't worth anything extra to you). I know that HGL plans to release extra content and extra zones and all that, but for people who played in the beta and maybe even finished it during beta, how can they see 15 months plus worth of value in HGL? Surely the most sensible option is paying the monthly sub for a game that you are going to leave and come back to? Especially given that those extra lifetime sub bonuses are likely to be offered out to other types of subscribers after a certain period of time (although I don't think anyone thought that length of time would finish before the beta did).

Now, there are other games that a lifetime sub might have some traction - for instance AoC or WAR, where the expectation is that the game will be live for several years. But it's a crapshoot for the player who wants to fork out up front..


Ratman_tf
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Reply #110 on: November 19, 2007, 07:47:31 PM

HGL is a single player game with delusions of grandeur.

The lack of network/local multiplayer really sticks out to me. If they hadn't been so hardcore to make this a MOG (or MMOG) while the game scope is clearly about as multiplayer as Diablo (2)...   swamp poop



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Howitzer
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Reply #111 on: November 19, 2007, 07:55:49 PM

I was burnt as welll.  I dropped $150.00 on this steaming pile of shit and will probably regret it for a while.  I really thought and believed that Roper and Co. were going to create a smash-hit here.  Whats funny is I enjoyed the game more in beta than I did in retail.  I think its because I had it in the back of my mind that this was beta, and things would get better.  I also was banned for 10 days from their official forums for asking for a refund, (with a little reference to Shadowbane and their fast demise, of course).  In all honesty, it was my own stupidity that I jumped at the lifetime sub.  I shouldn't have done it and I learned my lesson.

But in the end, I might have lost $150 bucks, but I doubt Flagship will ever sell another game again without this coming back to haunt them.

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lariac
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Reply #112 on: November 19, 2007, 09:38:26 PM

Under the agreement, The9 has agreed to pay US$5 million in license fees as well as guaranteed royalties equal to the greater of 21% of the retail value of the prepaid game cards produced for use or a total of US$30 million over the 3-year license period.

Insert witty Monty Python sound clip about the problems inherent in the system.

Human nature Roper has left building and what was there to stop him.  Receive check for his cut, get the game out and leave whatever mess there is to clean up to someone who cares..or not.  Nothing unique or new here.  The game will be, arguably already is, successful for it's kind.  Gamers will bitch, some will leave, some move on to the new shiney to repeat the same dysfunctional cycle.  Lemmings are we.   

Speak for yourself. I saw a turd and called it a turd back in August. It was the closed beta that got me suspicious.

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lariac
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Reply #113 on: November 19, 2007, 09:44:56 PM

and the stupid fucking pricing plan.

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dusematic
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Reply #114 on: November 19, 2007, 10:03:40 PM

Schild, you know I love you, I'm not trying to ridicule you, just having a debate.  That is all.
Hutch
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Reply #115 on: November 19, 2007, 10:09:01 PM

My idea of an ideal lifetime subscription is to let players rent to own their lifetime accounts.  In other words, if you have an account active for something like 16-24 months, you've paid enough subscription for one life and get free access on that account.  Now that's what I call a "veteran reward."  Charity aside, it's not totally useless from a business perspective, as you'll be offering incentive for players to stay subscribed for that length of time.  How many players stick with a single game for that long anyway?

Fail. Once a player has subscribed for that long, the company has two choices.

1) Do as they have been doing. Keep collecting the monthly fee from the cash machine player.
2) Cut off a proven source of revenue.

Regarding incentive: If the player doesn't like the game, they won't keep a subscription open for 24 months, or whatever the threshold is. Not just to get a lifetime sub. Anyone who's that foolish will pay for it up front. Rimshot

If the game is a good one, well, look at WoW, CoH/V, DaoC. How many long-subscribing players do those games have?


Pricing gimmicks are just that. Gimmicks. A ruse to get cash out of the sucker's pocket, and into the vendor's pocket. For long term success, you have to make a fun game, and it has to work. This is not a new theme on these boards, so that will be all for now  smiley


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geldonyetich2
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Reply #116 on: November 19, 2007, 10:26:03 PM

That occurred to me - last two sentences of that paragraph you quoted.
Simond
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Reply #117 on: November 20, 2007, 01:58:37 AM


Correction: FSS was well funded. I somehow doubt that the chequebooks will remain open for them much longer. I wonder how many subscribers they'll actually keep past the first couple of months?

I guess we know now why Blizzard hasn't announced Diablo 3 yet: There was no need for them to run a spoiler campaign against HG:L - just wait for events to take their course.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Dude, you severely underestimate the power of the average gamer to take it up the ass. If a game like AO can survive the fantastic shitstorm of their launch, anything can survive. There are no doubt issues, but for the most part people can play the game and get their shinies. That's all that really matters to the majority.
Ah, but people can do most of that for free. Why spend 10$/m for 'potential' when you can just play it for free then resubscribe at the point when (if) it's actually worth paying $10/m?

I mean, picking a random example out of the air - take Vanguard (please, someone take Vanguard!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? ). There was a lot of 'potential' there as well according to the game's fans, people stuck it out for a while but ultimately had to make the decision: Keep paying $15/m for potential, or stop playing. In HGL, no such decision needs to be made - don't think the game is worth subscribing to? No problem! Just play for free using up bandwidth, server resources and possibly CS resources as well for limited (in-game ads) to no revenue.

AO is a pretty good comparison really - with the free-play-with-ads deals they have a lot of people playing the game, but how many people are actually paying to play the game nowadays?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 02:05:25 AM by Simond »

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Ironwood
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Reply #118 on: November 20, 2007, 08:13:49 AM

Schild, you know I love you, I'm not trying to ridicule you, just having a debate.  That is all.


I would ridicule you.  If I could be bothered.  Because you were a clown.

Front page story about a fool and his money.  Big Who Cares.


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Ratman_tf
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Reply #119 on: November 20, 2007, 08:39:07 AM

Ah, but people can do most of that for free. Why spend 10$/m for 'potential' when you can just play it for free then resubscribe at the point when (if) it's actually worth paying $10/m?

There are quite a few posts on the HGL boards mentioning the game's potential. Whenever I see someone use that word to justify playing a game, I go  Ohhhhh, I see.
 



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
DarkSign
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Reply #120 on: November 20, 2007, 09:59:15 AM

The contract of $150 for a lifetime subscription is bargained for exchange. Nothing less. You expected the game not to suck and thought that your assessment from media hype was enough to warrant the risk that it would. Had the game been the best thing since sliced bread, you'd have gotten the better of the risk.

Every time a company puts out a game, they take a risk of not making all their money back. Getting money back faster isnt a flag of a bad game. It's a sound business practice. Perhaps some people do sit around a boardroom saying, "well this game sucks more than we thought it would. How can we capitalize on the good press?"

Gamers deserve games that don't suck, but I guess what bothers me is that lifetime members knew they were taking a chance. If $150 bucks is that much to you...dont risk it.
HaemishM
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Reply #121 on: November 20, 2007, 12:14:18 PM

Gamers deserve games that don't suck...

No, they don't, because they still buy buggy, incomplete, patch-needing, memory-leaking, desktop-crashing, harddrive-thrashing pieces of shit that no sane human would put up with.

Until gamers stop giving game developers money for half-assed releases (like HG:L apparently), they will keep taking it up the pooper and they will deserve every minute of butthurt.

They are asking for it.

geldonyetich2
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Reply #122 on: November 20, 2007, 12:18:21 PM

Ignorance being an ever-unlimited resource, I'm not so sure the day exists that crap cannot be sold to the unsuspecting public.  Catch22.
Morfiend
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Reply #123 on: November 20, 2007, 12:22:06 PM

I think this thread is one big "I told you so" from me.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #124 on: November 20, 2007, 12:36:43 PM

The contract of $150 for a lifetime subscription is bargained for exchange. Nothing less. You expected the game not to suck and thought that your assessment from media hype was enough to warrant the risk that it would. Had the game been the best thing since sliced bread, you'd have gotten the better of the risk.

Every time a company puts out a game, they take a risk of not making all their money back. Getting money back faster isnt a flag of a bad game. It's a sound business practice. Perhaps some people do sit around a boardroom saying, "well this game sucks more than we thought it would. How can we capitalize on the good press?"

Gamers deserve games that don't suck, but I guess what bothers me is that lifetime members knew they were taking a chance. If $150 bucks is that much to you...dont risk it.

Contracts of adhesion aren't really bargained for exchanges since the consumer's option is "agree to the clickwrap" or "don't buy."

Sorry to pick a nit, but it's a rather important distinction that has been the crux of recent lawsuits surrounding EULAs, so it's a pretty big nit.

I agree that gamers shouldn't get shit, but that's a problem endemic in the industry -- you're preaching to the converted on that end.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Sky
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Reply #125 on: November 20, 2007, 12:50:18 PM

The thing that surprises my non-gaming friends and my fiancee the most about pc gaming is that you can't return an opened game.

"How do you know it'll run on your computer?" Well, they do list some specs, but they really don't mean much.

"What if you don't like it?" Tough titties.

Want to know why I don't buy a lot of pc games? Can't return 'em if they suck.
geldonyetich2
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Reply #126 on: November 20, 2007, 12:57:39 PM

Damn, that's a good point.  PC Game industry: death by caveat emptor.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #127 on: November 20, 2007, 01:22:21 PM

Technically you should be able to return them -- otherwise the license agreements aren't really valid. IIRC, Best Buy got smacked for that a while back. Usually it's store policy to accept no returns, not that of the developer.

But yeah, just another example of why these contracts aren't traditional contracts, but ones that are really open to some of the harder to prove contract defenses...like unconscionability.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Sky
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Reply #128 on: November 20, 2007, 01:42:01 PM

Smacked how? Can I return an opened pc game to BB? If so, they become my new retailer. It's worth the drive if I never have to eat $50 like I did with Medieval 2, which isn't playable on my monitor.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #129 on: November 20, 2007, 01:52:18 PM

I could have sworn there was a class action lawsuit wherein they settled or fought it and lost. Basically, the class action was based on a deceptive business practices standard -- selling software that says you can return it and not accepting the return is unfair to consumers.

Of course, my Google-Fu is failing me at the moment, I could have sworn this came down about 3 years ago.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
bhodi
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No lie.


Reply #130 on: November 20, 2007, 01:57:54 PM

I was unable to return my warhawk ps3 game to BB.
Oban
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Reply #131 on: November 20, 2007, 02:10:43 PM


Of course, my Google-Fu is failing me at the moment, I could have sworn this came down about 3 years ago.

http://www.infoworld.com/weblog/foster/2004/12/21.html

WARNING PDF LINK BELOW::
http://www.techfirm.com/bakeragreement.pdf


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CmdrSlack
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Reply #132 on: November 20, 2007, 02:14:04 PM

Ok, yeah, that was what I remembered reading about.

I could have sworn it was rolled out as a national policy though.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Rasix
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Reply #133 on: November 20, 2007, 06:00:49 PM

The thing that surprises my non-gaming friends and my fiancee the most about pc gaming is that you can't return an opened game.

"How do you know it'll run on your computer?" Well, they do list some specs, but they really don't mean much.

"What if you don't like it?" Tough titties.

Want to know why I don't buy a lot of pc games? Can't return 'em if they suck.

Heh, I won't even buy a PC game anymore if I can't play a demo.  Sometimes if you're hovering near the min reqs or not at the recommended, the game will barely run at all. 

The other option for testing a game's playability is less legal, but often just as effective.

I think I've only bought a few PC games in my lifetime where I wish I could have returned them due to how much they sucked. Thing is, I've had this ingrained in my mind that this isn't a possibility for so long that I've never even considered it.  This doesn't include MMOs. I just don't know how a company could accept a return for a game that is meant to run with no DVD in the drive and has an online registration key. 

-Rasix
Ratman_tf
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Reply #134 on: November 20, 2007, 07:15:06 PM

I think I've only bought a few PC games in my lifetime where I wish I could have returned them due to how much they sucked. Thing is, I've had this ingrained in my mind that this isn't a possibility for so long that I've never even considered it.  This doesn't include MMOs. I just don't know how a company could accept a return for a game that is meant to run with no DVD in the drive and has an online registration key. 

Online registration is about the best form of copy protection you'll realistically ever see. Charge a monthly fee for it, and it's easy to understand why so many devs are aiming for subscription MOGs. (Like HGL, SEE! I'm on topic!)

I pays my money for these games, and I would really like to not have to use the disk when playing. My desk is cluttered as it is...



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
slog
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Reply #135 on: November 21, 2007, 06:30:49 AM

I just don't buy games that require DVDs or CD's anymore. 

Works a lot easier.

And yes my point in my first post was "Whiny fanboi gets ripped off because of his own stupidity, battles with Indian customer service department, loses, and whines on his website about it."

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WindupAtheist
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Reply #136 on: November 21, 2007, 08:05:33 AM

I liked the bit where he was all like "YOU BROUGHT THIS ON YOURSELVES MOTHERFUCKERS, LITTLE DO YOU KNOW I HAVE A MODERATELY POPULAR WEBSITE!"

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
schild
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Reply #137 on: November 21, 2007, 08:07:27 AM

Yea, that was a good time.
Oban
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Reply #138 on: November 21, 2007, 01:41:01 PM

Any more communiqués from Ping0?

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schild
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Reply #139 on: November 21, 2007, 02:36:38 PM

Nope. I'm going to ping them on Thanksgiving with some vile shit. I'm hoping they just ban me. That would be awesome.
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