Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[UnSub]

Yeah, I didn't play CoH, so I wonder if that contributed to me liking the game more than a lot of people.  I mean, Champions has some major issues, most notably not having enough content, but I think a lot of what I find charming about the game is just old hat to CoH vets.

It would make a huge difference.  I think if you went to CoX and tried their character creator you'd also rather play with it than CO's.

ChampO's char creator is more flexible, but that flexibility makes it more complex.

[Ratman_tf]

COH's ui and game system seemed counterintuitave to me. I felt like I was fighting the game to play. CO was smooth as butter. I think it's got the 2nd best UI/game system next to WoW in the MMOGsphere.

[Ingmar]

CO's power design was another example that free selection of powers inevitably leads to tank mages. It also requires a fine degree of per power balance which is more challenging than per archetype. With power balancing not being one of CO's strengths.

The only thing CO did better was more advanced character models (CoH needs a refresh badly), more use of 3D components in the hero builder (though a lot of those were ghastly) and more varied travel powers. The character model stances could have been good but they weren't integrated into the animations so it was a bit of a wash.

Yes, it is much more difficult to balance. I was speaking of CO's set selection adavantage more from the standpoint of picking abilities to match a character concept rather than the gameplay results. It is much easier to draw up a character concept and then pick powers to match it in CO than it was in CoX at release.

[Slyfeind]

I started with Champions Online, and then went to CoX. It feels so constraining -- only two colors at a time, no real battlesuit options, rigid classes -- but that's balanced out with the sheer amount of stuff to do.

If it survives, I might go back to Champions Online in 2012.

[Glazius]

It feels so constraining -- only two colors at a time,

Psst. There's a little green button under the color palette that says "link colors across all costume pieces" or words to that effect. You want to click that.

[Slyfeind]

It feels so constraining -- only two colors at a time,

Psst. There's a little green button under the color palette that says "link colors across all costume pieces" or words to that effect. You want to click that.

Yeah, I was going to say "Only two colors per slot" but then I realized I'd have to explain what I meant by "slot" i.e. two colors per pants, two different colors per boots, etc, and then it got all complicated.

[raydeen]

It feels so constraining -- only two colors at a time,

Psst. There's a little green button under the color palette that says "link colors across all costume pieces" or words to that effect. You want to click that.

Yeah, I was going to say "Only two colors per slot" but then I realized I'd have to explain what I meant by "slot" i.e. two colors per pants, two different colors per boots, etc, and then it got all complicated.

I actually liked being constrained to two or three colors at a time. Anything more and my uniform stopped being a uniform and became more of a Cyndi Lauper bargain bin eye exploding disaster.

[statisticalfool]

Yeah, I mean, the two colors per part is a little bit restraining:

I guess as they stack up:

CoH: many, many more parts (and more independence of parts)
CO: better model customization, looks better, more color control

But I found that the lack of the part I wanted was always a lot more important.

[Numtini]

CO: better model customization, looks better, more color control

That is definitely a matter of taste. I thought CO looked horrible compared to COX.

[Nebu]

Male toons in CoH also seem to have a lot fewer options than female toons.  I always hated this, paticularly with regard to chest/leg set pieces.  It weirds me out to play a female toon so I prefer to have at least the same number of customization options that aren't weapon skins.  

[statisticalfool]

CO: better model customization, looks better, more color control

That is definitely a matter of taste. I thought CO looked horrible compared to COX.

(We're talking about cel-shading off, right?)

I think that the art design is stronger in CoH, but the models are definitely looking their age these days. Maybe Going Rogue will fix that.

[Riggswolfe]

So, since I don't want to read the entire thread can someone give me a summary of the issues with this game. I know 3 people that are playing the hell out of it and loving but they are also very casual players so I'm wondering if the issues don't start until higher levels. I'd guess they're in their high teens to low 20s right now.

[statisticalfool]

Sure, quick summary:

* Low population and falling
* End game near non-existent/horrible grinds for no reward
* Barely enough content for one runthrough: your second character will do 95%+ the same content
* Group content/reasons to group slim to none
* Previous point underscores lack of diversity: everybody has to tankmage
* Lots of balance issues (god help you if you want to be melee)
* Lingering technical issues
* With STO coming, almost no support/new content from Cryptic.

But, if you treat it like a singleplayer game, and you have some friends, and you want to create a character and hit stuff for a few dozen hours, it's not the worst way in the world to spend your time. (although, you should just play Freedom Force: it's like $3 on Steam!)

[Lantyssa]

Male toons in CoH also seem to have a lot fewer options than female toons.  I always hated this, paticularly with regard to chest/leg set pieces.  It weirds me out to play a female toon so I prefer to have at least the same number of customization options that aren't weapon skins.  

They fixed this in CO by giving females half the options of males.

[Riggswolfe]

Sure, quick summary:

* Low population and falling
* End game near non-existent/horrible grinds for no reward
* Barely enough content for one runthrough: your second character will do 95%+ the same content
* Group content/reasons to group slim to none
* Previous point underscores lack of diversity: everybody has to tankmage
* Lots of balance issues (god help you if you want to be melee)
* Lingering technical issues
* With STO coming, almost no support/new content from Cryptic.

But, if you treat it like a singleplayer game, and you have some friends, and you want to create a character and hit stuff for a few dozen hours, it's not the worst way in the world to spend your time. (although, you should just play Freedom Force: it's like $3 on Steam!)

Thank you! The people who are playing it typically solo or duo because their kids call them away from their comps all the time. The wife loves alts though so if the content stuff is true I can see her getting bored quite quickly. I hope Star Trek Online doesn't suffer these problems. (Though honestly, lack of group content isn't a big deal to me as I enjoy soloing.)

I know STO uses the same engine so those technical issues could be worrying. As for support/content, do you think Cryptic just doesn't have enough bodies?

[Sky]

I'll be playing this at some point this year. I enjoyed the heck out of the beta and got it during the steam sale.

I also fall under the casual afkalot moniker.

[UnSub]

* With STO coming, almost no support/new content from Cryptic.

I agree with most of what you said and if I could actually not lock up on the login screen, I'd check population levels.

However, to date Cryptic haven't been too bad in releasing events and patches. They may hang themselves with the talk of a 'big new awesome early 2010 content patch' though.

[Sky]

Also, STO looks like fucking balls. Cryptic will have to go back to their superhero roots after failing miserably. DOOMCASTED.

[Bandit]

Sure, quick summary:

* Low population and falling
* End game near non-existent/horrible grinds for no reward
* Barely enough content for one runthrough: your second character will do 95%+ the same content
* Group content/reasons to group slim to none
* Previous point underscores lack of diversity: everybody has to tankmage
* Lots of balance issues (god help you if you want to be melee)
* Lingering technical issues
* With STO coming, almost no support/new content from Cryptic.

But, if you treat it like a singleplayer game, and you have some friends, and you want to create a character and hit stuff for a few dozen hours, it's not the worst way in the world to spend your time. (although, you should just play Freedom Force: it's like $3 on Steam!)

I would say this is pretty spot on.  I would add that I still encounter too many bugs (Nemesis Missions, Unity Missions).  It is also a great suggestion to treat this as a single player, more casual MMO (contradiction in a sense I guess).  I still play pretty much nightly, but for 1 to 2 hours maximum.  The issue I have with the game is that it is a perfect casual game for me, but they add way too much grind with little or no rewards in between.  The new 400 level crafting quests - which ultimately allow for 3 new travel devices - are CRAZY SUPER grindy.  To complete all the recipes and finally craft a device would take weeks or months at my playstyle.

Ultimately, with all its flaws the combat is entertaining.  This is the main appeal for me (in addition to costume/power customization).  Dual pistol mojo, shotgun, web grenades, smoke grenades, acrobatics/swinging is a joy to battle with.

[Tannhauser]

Needs more content.
Needs better and less loot drops
Mission loot should be better than good to encourage grouping.
I hate that my bags are full of junk.

Not a bad game, just needs a partial re-vamp.  I really like the cel-shading and the comic book feel.

[Numtini]

My alpha/beta experiences: Not fun to play. Not fun to play. And not fun to play.

The rest can be fixed, but it was missing that almost impossible to define element of fun.

[Malakili]

My alpha/beta experiences: Not fun to play. Not fun to play. And not fun to play.

The rest can be fixed, but it was missing that almost impossible to define element of fun.

I actually found the exact opposite to be true.  The actually gameplay (by which I mean combat, because thats pretty much all there is to the game), is actually quite solid.  The endgame is nearly non-existent, and to level a new character means doing the same content over and over on every single character in nearly the same order, and it just becomes too repetitive.  The game needs literally about twice as much content, or alternatively, I suppose, about 1/2 the experience curve to hit max level so that you can skip whatever you feel like and mix up your path to max between characters.  As it is, every time I got to level 20 on a character after my first, my will to play any further was sapped.

[Minvaren]

I played CoH for ~6 months when it first came out.  I got a En/En blapper to 33 or so.  Teleport sucked.  Got bored and left.

I came back about a year after CoV came out.  It fixed most of the problems of the original (and I chose Superspeed ftw), and I levelled a Ninja/Poison Mastermind to 50.  95% of it was fun.  I left because I got bored once I dinged 50.

I picked up CO for $10 on the Steam sale and downloaded it eagerly.  I was astounded by the character creation, and think that level of characterization in other MMOs would be most excellent.  My sound was disabled (x64 realtek), prompting 30 minutes of investigation and changing launch settings to even get things to work.  I entered the game and promptly became very confused.  Block timing was not intuitive, and the text seemed microscopic (though this may have been my fault, after 6 tweak/restarts to get the video windowed and full-screen).  I picked a Celestial character, and had a hard time making it to 9 before I decided it Just Wasn't Fun Any More(tm).

I think it could be fun for the right person, and it is fairly fun to play, but as a CoX veteran, it wasn't for me.  The game feels shallow, and that's a lot considering these guys did CoH.

[Numtini]

I also found the block thing really "off." It seemed like some vestige of a more interesting system that was abandoned with the one bit left in.

[statisticalfool]

I'm pretty sure that back in the early days, they were promising a lot more of an action, rather than your standard auto-attack + powers mix. When it's reduced to just block the fire, instead of don't stand in it, there's not a whole lot of appeal.

I totally know that players don't actually want to be challenged, but I think that enough people have the experience necessary to handles mobs who are least mildly tricky. (see also: increasing complexity of 5-mans).

By the way, Cryptic, how's that 360 port?

[Malakili]

By the way, Cryptic, how's that 360 port?

Whenever someone has brought it up on the forums, they always say they are still working on it, though frankly, I can't imagine its that good a decision to release this for the 360. They must  have some delusion that its somehow going to save the product as a whole.

[Kageh]

You'd only have to consider the amount they would have to invest in bug fixing to get this through Microsoft QA, which apparently is very demanding for 360 games. I don't think it would ever pay off.

But then again, maybe latter patches made everything better, I don't know.

[statisticalfool]

You'd only have to consider the amount they would have to invest in bug fixing to get this through Microsoft QA, which apparently is very demanding for 360 games. I don't think it would ever pay off.

But then again, maybe latter patches made everything better, I don't know.

I envision a very large pile of skulls, with a sign ontop: "Foolhardy souls who tried to release their MMO on a console."

[Ingmar]

I also found the block thing really "off." It seemed like some vestige of a more interesting system that was abandoned with the one bit left in.

Yeah, with hindsight, I think this was probably the single worst feature of the combat system. It got in the way of everything else rather than adding something.

[Kageh]

I actually liked the "block skill" idea, but the timing was hard to pull off correctly unless you were very conservative about your blocking. And there was visual information overload with "bubble"/"excalamation mark"/"circle"/"emote" all over the place, constantly.

Not to forget that at release there were versions of block that had the "The block effect still persists a few seconds after you release" thing, which could be made into perma-250% defenses by going "attack-block-attack-block-attack". Do they still have those?

[Sky]

I thought block was cool. In the tutorial in beta, there was a mob with a high powered aimed attack (rescue somebody quest). I was duoing with some dude, and BLAM the other dude bites it. The mob turns to me and loads up that big attack, I block and survive, finish the quest.

[Malakili]

Not to forget that at release there were versions of block that had the "The block effect still persists a few seconds after you release" thing, which could be made into perma-250% defenses by going "attack-block-attack-block-attack". Do they still have those?

It got nerfed.

[Kageru]

Block was a pretty bad mechanic. Very latency sensitive and it made balancing player durability more or less impossible. So PvE content, if they actually had any, would have inevitably involved at least one person holding down block for the entire duration over which they had aggro. Not very exciting.

[UnSub]

I liked the block mechanic. However (as others say) the visual representation of when you block was off, so you were never sure if you were blocking or not when you pressed the button.

Ultimately Cryptic made what was a good idea for a system (open power selection) very complex, which just confused people rather than serving as some kind of balancing mechanism (powers! items! stats! power replacers! builds! undefined power synergies!).

By the way, Cryptic, how's that 360 port?

I'm 100% certain it works as well as the PC version. Take that as you will.

However, someone else on the ChampO forums made a great point - Cryptic doesn't just have a sub fee, they also have a cash shop. Would MS be comfortable in Cryptic porting this cash shop over to Xbox Live as well? If they are, they'll want a cut. If they don't then Cryptic needs a whole new content delivery plan.

Both STO and ChampO had their console ports as part of their business plan, I'm sure. However, the reality is that the gatekeepers of those consoles aren't nearly as flexible as the PC which I'm sure has unofficially scuttled those plans.

[Ingmar]

The problem with block was it was an action gameplay element tacked onto what was otherwise pretty standard RPG style combat, with latency thrown in for fun. It just didn't mesh with the way abilities worked otherwise very well. I think in a combat system built more like a fighting game that it would have worked OK but as it was, it just interfered with the experience I think.