Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[tmp]

However in practical terms a console owner probably expects one button to have a single function?

I guess it'll depend on what games they usually play. I mean, it's not unusual foe games to have the same button launch weak attack or a powerful one or something yet different depending if it's tapped quick, held down to "charge" or double-tapped, or whatever. And then you have the fighting games with their idea of using stick movement and buttons in combination to execute wide array of "skills". Both these concepts are probably more familiar to average console owner than PC-only MMO player, when you think of it.

[Kageru]

Well, Conan tried to do the movement plus key presses for varied actions. However I think that, and the idea of charge powers, probably work a lot better on a low latency console than on a MMO server in another country. Though CO are using the "tap" and "charge" model on at least some powers.

[Margalis]

Certainly the designers think so as all the console friendly MMO's (The Agency, DCUO, CO) have extremely small action bars.

Including "action bars" in a console game is failure.

There are very few console games where one button only performs one function. Hell, even in super Mario 'B' is both accelerate and fireball. However trying to map a console controller onto PC-style hotkeys is just dumb.

[UnSub]

ChampO was being played using an Xbox 360 controller at a lot of the demos.

Everything else is .

Hmm, lifetime sub worth approx 1.5 years worth of sub fees. How much do I trust the potential of ChampO?

[Triforcer]

I want to know your perspective on this too.    Luckily, the promotion runs through August 31, so I can wait til the NDA drops to hear your review. 

[Kageru]

The fact they're offering a lifetime sub is all the clue you need. It's only going to be offered by games that need cash up-front and / or are worried about retention.

[Triforcer]

 

I've seen that gem trotted out on several sites now.  I don't want to get in a long debate about business school 101, but lets just say that other valid reasons to do something like that exists. 

[Margalis]

I'd like to hear a couple of those reasons because to me offering a lifetime sub is admitting up front that people won't stay subscribed for very long. And really the whole point of an MMO is the recurring revenue model.

[Triforcer]

That is the whole point, but you just can't assume that "if people liked our game, they'd stay forever, therefore lifetime subs is a bad decision for a quality game."

I am sure Cryptic has market research and other data indicating what the average retention time is in an MMO.  Even for a relatively "successful" MMO (WoW, of course, skews all data points).  It may be that an 18 month sub exceeds that.  It may be that they have calculated that really enthusiastic lifetimers, even if they exceed that timepoint, are more likely to dual-box.  It may be that you can count lifetimers in any "sub" count, thus boosting p.r. potential even when "monthly" subscribers are dipping.

In short, there is plenty of room for explanations other than "We're doomed, must trick people NOW!"  

[Margalis]

I am sure Cryptic has market research and other data indicating what the average retention time is in an MMO.

I'd actually be very surprised if they had any data like this beyond CoX.

[Hutch]

Meh. Hellgate:London offered lifetime subs when they launched. So did LotRO.

One of these games is still with us, and apparently healthy enough to create expansions and other content additions. The other one was Hellgate: London.

I don't think we can predict failure or success based on this one data point.

[Typhon]

Note: I'm not in the beta, the below is complete speculation on 2 non-nefarious reasons why an MMO might seriously toy with the lifetime sub idea.

#1
If I'm setting up an MMO and I know my game won't have enough content at launch to hold people more then a couple months, and the last time I launched people crucified me for make the game too grindy, I might start looking at whether I could keep my business afloat based upon re-subs.  I would, understandably, be even more concerned about my business model if I intended to provide semi-frequent free content updates (which seem to becoming more common in this industry).  Also, being an MMO, I would be understandably worried about what impact a low-population server would have on the appeal of the game - thus getting people to re-sub/return would be something that I'd really like to encourage.

One mitigating strategy I might employ would be to create a subset of my population that had absolutely no barrier (other then download) to return during my semi-frequent free content updates. A lifetime sub seems like a nice way to define that subset of the population.

#2
If I had previously released a game where I gave periodic subscriber appreciation rewards, that were pretty popular, I might think that a portion of my playerbase might be interested in getting these rewards without having to worry about whether they were subscribers or not.  Such a subsection of my customers might even be induced to pay a larger amount upfront - which would make my launch look much better, financially speaking.

[Pendan]

I am less concerened about what doing a lifetime subscription means to a companies financies than I am about what doing a lifetime subscription when NDA is still up means to the quality of product. Adding beta access to Star Wars for paying them money now also adds to my concern they are trying scam money on a crap product while NDA still up.

[Typhon]

I'd like to hear a couple of those reasons because to me offering a lifetime sub is admitting up front that people won't stay subscribed for very long. And really the whole point of an MMO is the recurring revenue model.

@Pendan: In my previous post, I was attempting to offer credible reasons in response to this thread, not trying to convince a gamer why they should care about an MMO companies profitability.  I'm not sure I succeeded, but I thought I'd give it a try anyway.

The 8 extra slots are nice if you are the type of player that creates a large number of alts.  As far as tying it to Star Trek Online - they're just borrowing a page from EA/SOE's book, I'm not sure why this cracks up the concern about it being a scam.

[Pendan]

@Typhon my post was not in reaction to anything you said previously.

As for STO, if NDA were down then it would just be a bonus to the life time account to CO. With NDA up it is hurry now and buy before you learn the truth or you will miss out on the limited time offer for STO beta.

[UnSub]

The lifetime sub thing isn't a complete surprise, given that they offered lifetime subs to STO as contest prizes.

[AutomaticZen]

Random divergence:  I thought Trippy hated the @Name thing?

[Trippy]

Random divergence:  I thought Trippy hated the @Name thing?

Yes I do, thanks for pointing that out to me.

@Typhon my post was not in reaction to anything you said previously.

THIS IS NOT FUCKING TWITTER:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17257.0

[Pagz]

NDA is still up until Open Beta - it will be very clear when it's no longer active.

It'll be good to see what people here think of it. August 17th should be interesting!

[Triforcer]

Character Creator ahoy?

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=26648

Smart move.  I can see something like this getting a lot of people interested who weren't before.  Bonus if you can upload this character into the game itself without re-creating. 

[Typhon]

Random divergence:  I thought Trippy hated the @Name thing?

Yes I do, thanks for pointing that out to me.

@Typhon my post was not in reaction to anything you said previously.

THIS IS NOT FUCKING TWITTER:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=17257.0

Apologies. Only reason I used @ is because I quoted Margalis but was talking to Pendan and was too lazy to double-quote.

[Triforcer]

Such is the folly of man.

[Signe]

So, is anyone actually going to take advantage of any of their subscription deals?  Not the lifetime one, of course, because that spells certain doom, right?  

Also - I have never twitted or facebooked or myspaced in my life and had no idea that is where those thingies came from.  I thought the @whoever was sort of a clever shortcut, though.  Of course, I'm not known for my taste, my attention to new fads or my cleverosity.

PS  I don't think it's clever anymore because I have noticed it being used on Big Brother forums.  Yes, I'm addicted to Big Brother. 
My shame.  But most of the fans on forums aren't very clever.  Not like us.  Oh no. 

[HaemishM]

Re: Lifetime subs

If we assume that the average sub length is 6 months (at least you hope it is - if your game is averaging less than 6 months, you're probably fucked), then the $200 lifetime sub price means you get over 13 months worth of revenue out of that player upfront. Upfront money = GUD. Now, let's say the lifetime guy plays heavily for 3 months, his play time tails off for months 3-6 and then after month 6 he stops playing regularly, only popping back on for patches or expansions. Suddenly, he costs almost nothing to maintain, plus he is a potential marketing goldmine because when he returns he either brings new friends in or possibly brings old friends back.

For the relatively few numbers that will sign up for the lifetime membership, you get a whole lot of benefits as a company.

[Tannhauser]

Brilliant move on Blizzard's part then by not having a lifetime sub; I would guess that many, many folks have stayed subbed over the four plus years of WoW's existence.

[tazelbain]

I bet WAR could have made a mint with lifetimes.

[Tannhauser]

I bet WAR could have made a mint with lifetimes.

Agreed.  They would have gotten about three of my friends but not me; I demo'ed it at Origins and knew right away it felt 'off'.

[Typhon]

Also - I have never twitted or facebooked or myspaced in my life and had no idea that is where those thingies came from.  I thought the @whoever was sort of a clever shortcut, though.  Of course, I'm not known for my taste, my attention to new fads or my cleverosity.

Same, same and same here.  Also, I didn't realize it was a no-no on f13, but I do now!

[Ingmar]

The @stuff predates Twitter - it was used extensively on VN* back in the DAOC trash talking days.

*This is of course another good reason to ban it forever.

[Draegan]

I used the @ thing before twitter as well.

[UnSub]

Brilliant move on Blizzard's part then by not having a lifetime sub; I would guess that many, many folks have stayed subbed over the four plus years of WoW's existence.

If Blizzard knew then what it knows now, I think they probably would have done a lot of things differently. If EQ had offered a lifetime sub, I'm sure they would have considered it.

Blizzard will offer lifetime subs on their next title and could get away with charging $500 for them. Entire guilds would pay it.

Or they could charge $20 a month for sub fees. Or go fully microtrans. Or offer a mix. It's Blizzard.

[Triforcer]

I've come to the conclusions that my fears about every AAA game going MT in the future is wrong.

They will all be BOTH full-price subs and MT.  Why choose one or the other when you can do both? 

[Trippy]

I used the @ thing before twitter as well.

I don't care. Stop it.

[tmp]

They will all be BOTH full-price subs and MT.  Why choose one or the other when you can do both? 

Why stop there when you can have MT and *multiple* full-price subs so your players can skip playing parts of your game

[Signe]

Someone hold Trippy.  Not me!  He seems a little bit rummy lately and I'm a-scurred of him today.