Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[stark]

I have a key up for grabs too claimed

[palmer_eldritch]

Hey Stark, if it's still available and you've got nothing better to do with it. I'd appreciate it!

[NiX]

If anyone has a spare key, let me know.

[eldaec]

It's not the tech that makes MMOs on consoles a challenge. It's the business model. Consoles rely on title churn from different developers and publishers paying separate residuals. And the X360 specifically has a tiered subscription structure already. So putting an MMO on that not only brings obsessive behavior that doesn't compel users to buy further titles, it also asks them to pay for XBL and a monthly fee, or additional into microtransacations.

This is no different to PCs.

PC manufacturers rely on churn through steadily higher spec games to sell upgrades. Even without residuals, the effect is the same.

And just like PCs, the game publisher doesn't give a rat's ass if the hardware OEM gets enough cash (or at least, he shrugs his shoulders and views OEM hardship as a tragedy of the commons).

[Venkman]

I'd love to have a buddy key if anyone has. There does feel like some uniqueness here.

@eldaec: wuh? PCs don't turnover as quickly as console software. How much money from a RAM or hard drive upgrade goes back to the original label on the PC (assuming it's not a custom job)? The game publisher may not care, but it's built into the ability to make a console game because Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony control that channel almost entirely (alongside retailers).

Basically, I'm not seeing where there's any parallel except in the most abstract "well they all make games" sense.

[sam, an eggplant]

It's not the tech that makes MMOs on consoles a challenge. It's the business model. Consoles rely on title churn from different developers and publishers paying separate residuals. And the X360 specifically has a tiered subscription structure already. So putting an MMO on that not only brings obsessive behavior that doesn't compel users to buy further titles, it also asks them to pay for XBL and a monthly fee, or additional into microtransacations.

I disagree. MS and Sony would absolutely love to get successful MMOs on their systems. Just thinking about the next WoW exclusively on their console gives them mahogany. They could take a cut of however the game is monetized, whether it's subscriptions, buying silly hats, or whatever. The real problem is the locked-down console security model and certification process. You can't just push changed code to a console, it needs to be certified, and both MS and sony are incredibly slow at doing so. That's why neither console has been successfully or pervasively hacked to run unsigned code.

Well, the 360 was hacked a couple of years ago via the king kong game, but it was patched right away and never went anywhere. Its security model isn't inherently flawed like the previous generation of consoles.

To properly support a MMO, the developers must have the ability to patch at will, particularly in the first couple months of operation. The certification process isn't an insurmountable problem, but it is a sizable one. Any successful console MMO would either need to somehow run in its own hypervised DMZ or MS/sony would have to be willing to give up some degree of control.

[Lantyssa]

To properly support a MMO, the developers must have the ability to patch at will, particularly in the first couple months of operation. The certification process isn't an insurmountable problem, but it is a sizable one. Any successful console MMO would either need to somehow run in its own hypervised DMZ or MS/sony would have to be willing to give up some degree of control.

No MMOs doen't need to be patched anymore than any other console game in their first months.  The mindset of developers that they have such leeway does need to change, however.

[sam, an eggplant]

In principal I would agree. But of course you can't offer any examples of that actually happening, because it never has.

Also there's a distinct need to leverage players for test servers, the ability to rapidly patch ingame exploits and dupes, and so on.

[Lantyssa]

I can barely give examples of non-DIKU MMOs either.  A lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not possible.  It just means accepted standard practices need to raise their standards.

[sam, an eggplant]

Absolutely, and I would love to live in that wonderful world. So, how do I make it through that door? Every time I get within reach, the rainbow disappears and I fall back to this boring old stuffy planet.

:(

[Venkman]

So the reason this is a business decisions is because of the "locked down security and certification process". If they truly wanted to suck players into one game to rule them all, they could, ya know, change the process. Sony is already doing that, but of course playing the homefield advantage, as they have the right to.

But I contend that they don't because of what I said above. Which actually corrolates with what you just said about there being no precedent. There isn't, so it makes it hard to change the thinking when a) things are working so well for them already (Xbox Live is an uncontested marketplace unto itself); and, b) Wii rolled the evolutionary clock back by a few years (man I hate the Wiicade setup... it's like some mid-90s website... bleh!).

Which ultimately means that it's not a "console" problem, but rather, a Microsoft and Nintendo problem. And no single solution works for either one. Microsoft was probably hoping for VG to be their card to play in the "homefield advantage" thing, their DCUO. And Nintendo just doesn't seem to really care at all right now, because they don't need to.

[eldaec]

I'm sure they can find a way to put parts of the code outside of the certification process, while keeping enough inside to hold the game hostage and milk residuals. Which is all certification is about anyway.

[sam, an eggplant]

Well no, they need to maintain system security. Like I said, it's not insurmountable, but it is a major obstacle to getting MMOs on current-gen consoles. Of course it's a business decision, everything is. But saying that they don't want a successful MMO on their console because people tend to focus on their drug of choice to the exclusion of other games is pretty silly.

[Venkman]

Sillier than saying the only thing preventing MMOs on consoles is the same rules they themselves wrote? 

In all seriousness, where do you think they'd get more money? Monetizing a single MMO or constantly pushing a new drug. X360 is as much a retail channel as it is a game device, and some of the same rules. This is not some additive business for them that churns pure profit.

But anyway, sounds like are positions are set, so at least we have that

[Triforcer]

MUO officially...alive?

http://kotaku.com/5171366/marvel-universe-back-from-the-dead

 

[Signe]

I was reading this earlier but for some reason I thought we already knew this.  Am I getting all my superhero MMOs confuzulated?   

I'll play them all.  Maybe one will stick.

[sam, an eggplant]

In all seriousness, where do you think they'd get more money? Monetizing a single MMO or constantly pushing a new drug.

Well both, of course. There are plenty of people who play WoW and nothing else, ever, but many of those people weren't gamers before WoW anyway. That's one major reason why the consoles desperately need a successful MMO. To bring in a new audience.

[Lantyssa]

MUO officially...alive?

http://kotaku.com/5171366/marvel-universe-back-from-the-dead

This game comes back from the dead more times than a character in the Marvel Universe.

[Kageru]

... I can't believe anyone really cares. An IP is just a skin over the game. It's not like you are going to be able to play as or kill / influence any of their named characters(tm)(c). I don't care if it's Darth Vader / Spider man or Billy McGeneric telling me to go and kill 10 sand people / street muggers / rats. Slightly more important is whether the IP gives an interesting world to live in (a negative for Marvel because its a disjointed mess set in the present time and poorly suited for an MMO, though star wars is worse). The only question I care about is if the gameplay is good.

[Venkman]

Star Wars actually is a good setting for an MMO. You just need to find the right time period and ensure the people who show up get the game they expect. I actually think SWTOR is going to be closer to the mark. Even though I suspect in the end I'll have enjoyed SWG more, it was more because the world I loved was much more to do with it being UO2 with sci-fi overtones than anything evocative of the IP.

As to MUO, yea read that on Kotaku earlier. Don't really care. And it's not because of the IP. You can make that part work. Nah, it's because it's still in the STO was before Cryptic took it: a pipedream driven until taken on by a serious developer who knows what they're doing.

[eldaec]

... I can't believe anyone really cares. An IP is just a skin over the game.

Have you not read Triforcer's posts?

[UnSub]

Other ChampO stuff: launch will have a lvl 40 cap, not lvl 50 like originally indicated.

[Nevermore]

Cryptic did the same thing with City of Heroes.  The original cap was 40, then it was increased to 50 when they got that content finished.

[Signe]

Geez.  This is really going to be a CoXy experience.  Well, at least I'll get some new tile sets to look at!  That'll keep me entertained for a while.

[eldaec]

Layered then onto that is the ability to choose for a vast majority of the powers, emanation points, where that power is coming from. So if a force beam normally comes from your hands, I could instead choose to have it come from my eyes or a chest plate. So if I'm thinking my idea behind my guy is that he's a power armoured guy with this big chest cannon, I'm going to find a costume that represents that and I'm going to put that force beam that I have on that chest cannon piece.

Am I the only one thinking what I'm thinking?

[raydeen]

Layered then onto that is the ability to choose for a vast majority of the powers, emanation points, where that power is coming from. So if a force beam normally comes from your hands, I could instead choose to have it come from my eyes or a chest plate. So if I'm thinking my idea behind my guy is that he's a power armoured guy with this big chest cannon, I'm going to find a costume that represents that and I'm going to put that force beam that I have on that chest cannon piece.

Am I the only one thinking what I'm thinking?

Because there aren't enough cock beam jokes on the internet, rite?

There will be now.

http://www.wtfcostumes.com/costumes/orgasmo_costume.jpg

[Furiously]

Layered then onto that is the ability to choose for a vast majority of the powers, emanation points, where that power is coming from. So if a force beam normally comes from your hands, I could instead choose to have it come from my eyes or a chest plate. So if I'm thinking my idea behind my guy is that he's a power armoured guy with this big chest cannon, I'm going to find a costume that represents that and I'm going to put that force beam that I have on that chest cannon piece.

Am I the only one thinking what I'm thinking?

Because there aren't enough cock beam jokes on the internet, rite?

There will be now.

http://www.wtfcostumes.com/costumes/orgasmo_costume.jpg

Sounds like a most worthy prey...

[Malakili]

For people who care, a new interview with Bill Roper 

http://www.rerollz.com/2009/04/08/interview-with-bill-roper-on-champions-online/

Regardless of the differences do you see City Of games as direct competition? What are you planning or actively doing to make sure you have the majority of the market share?

We’re excited that both MMOs and Superheroes have become such a huge part of our social consciousness because it really sets the stage for the launching of Champions Online. We know that gamers who play the City Of games love both of these elements, and we hope that they’ll come and help build a great new universe with us.

[Lt.Dan]

Layered then onto that is the ability to choose for a vast majority of the powers, emanation points, where that power is coming from. So if a force beam normally comes from your hands, I could instead choose to have it come from my eyes or a chest plate. So if I'm thinking my idea behind my guy is that he's a power armoured guy with this big chest cannon, I'm going to find a costume that represents that and I'm going to put that force beam that I have on that chest cannon piece.

Am I the only one thinking what I'm thinking?

I was thinking that it was one of those features that'll get a lot of interest then get cut in the crunch to release. 

[Trippy]

That's not what eldaec was thinking

[raydeen]

Set the controls for the heart of the MASSIVE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!!

[Ghambit]

Set the controls for the heart of the MASSIVE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!!

Will they be making all player-generated characters and likenesses the sole property of Cryptic?
If so, then I could agree. 

Otherwise, it'd be the equivalent of saying every superhero made in the pnp version of Champions was infringement... which obviously, it's not.

[Malakili]

I want so badly for this game not to suck, but every video I've seen and every interview I've read leaves me thinking its going to be quite mediocre :(

[Murgos]

Anyway, the copyright thing is a complete non-issue.  Marvel and Cryptic quietly dropped all pretense at such things once they realized it would harm them more than help them.

Sure, Marvel could have got CoH to change the outfit of anyone resembling a Marvel property.  This would have been immediately followed by Marvel going broke licensing one of the other 5 quadrillion costumes that Cryptic has covered whenever they wanted to change a look or create a new hero/villian.

[ezrast]

I want so badly for this game not to suck, but every video I've seen and every interview I've read leaves me thinking its going to be quite mediocre :(

Goodness, I know. All I want is a better CoX, but every new thing that comes out is just Bill Roper saying "Hey, this game is action-packed."