Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Venkman]

Hrm, obviously don't remember Kedge the way you guys do. Wonder if I skipped that? I do remember the bitching about the pathing though, something on the order of Unrest iirc Only "underwater zone" I remember from EQ1 was The Grey, that outdoor vacuum. Looking over at EQAtlas I think I must have missed The Deep too or something.

I'm not looking for some sim action here or anything. But I lump "water zone" into the same category as weather effects: I don't give a crap unless it affects the game somehow, and so far none of them have.

I disagree a huge amount.  They make you move slowly and awkwardly, they are disorienting, and generally have you facing off against enemies that are about 100 times more suited for their environment than you are.  So, in fact, if effects the game a lot, just very negatively.

We're not playing in the same underwater zones maybe. The only difference I've seen with enemies are those that naturally breath underwater as opposed to I who needed to bring waterbreathing pots. The disorientation I can see if you're playing in first-person, but I haven't done that since, actually, EQ1

[Trippy]

Hrm, obviously don't remember Kedge the way you guys do. Wonder if I skipped that? I do remember the bitching about the pathing though, something on the order of Unrest iirc Only "underwater zone" I remember from EQ1 was The Grey, that outdoor vacuum. Looking over at EQAtlas I think I must have missed The Deep too or something.

Unless you were working on epics for yourself or your guildmates you probably didn't bother with the zone. It was a lot of work to get people equipped to go down there (e.g. camping Hadden for the Fishbone Earring).

[Shrike]

I remember Kedge and I don't remember much good about it. It did have some interesting dynamics, but mostly it was just a pain in the ass.

The Grey was sorta similar, but lacked the pathing problems and the extra axis to worry about (the interesting part). By Luclin, water/no-breathing wasn't so much of an issue as it was back before Kunark.

[Hindenburg]

most MMOG players are completely retarded pussies who can't accept challenge

Can't accept heavy punishment for their failures, not the challenge itself.

[Venkman]

Ah ok that makes sense. I didn't join EQ1 until Velious launched.

[Koyasha]

most MMOG players are completely retarded pussies who can't accept challenge

Can't accept heavy punishment for their failures, not the challenge itself.

Both, really, considering they bitch and give up after a few failures in WoW, and there's effectively no punishment for failure there.

Curiously, I found people were more stubborn and less willing to give up after a few wipes, back in EQ, where the penalty was significant.

[UnSub]

That said, EQ was home to all manner of death-avoiding tactics as well. No-one wanted to lose several hours work to an unfortunate death.

I'm all for a light death penalty provided the game experience is packaged well. Ultimately it is up to the game to convince me to spend what I have to in order to make that lost time back up.

[Nebu]

I think games need a wider variety of risk reward.  There's something about the tension that EQ created during a dungeon crawl that made it an exciting experience that I haven't felt since.  I'm not saying that entire games should be filled with the soul crushing time sinks that EQ had.  I'm just saying that there should be some VERY difficult encounters that cater to player skill rather than gear. 

[eldaec]

The players of EVE just started screaming blue murder because a tiny subset of mobs got given an AI that assesses threat rather than just blindly locking the nearest player. Oh, and because they now use remote repair modules on each other. Apparently a standard fit Raven can't solo any number of the things without having to modify tactics in any way.

This is the players of EVE. Do you really think any element of uncertainty or challenge is going to be accepted in diku-land any time soon?

[DLRiley]

most MMOG players are completely retarded pussies who can't accept challenge

Can't accept heavy punishment for their failures, not the challenge itself.

Both, really, considering they bitch and give up after a few failures in WoW, and there's effectively no punishment for failure there.

Curiously, I found people were more stubborn and less willing to give up after a few wipes, back in EQ, where the penalty was significant.

For players who actually want a challenge or at least some general level of breathing room, they general hate heavy punishments for failure, though how "heavy" the punishment is kind relative to each players individual sense of "it's not that bad". However most mmo players don't play mmo for the sake of a challenge. Because mmo's are far removed from the incentives that drive most games. Hence, they will scream bloody murder if you raise the difficulty. There is also alot of deep seeded reasons why even players who are normally inclined for a challenge turn off their brains come mmo time. For one mmo traditional don't reward the best players. Your goal isn't getting better at the game, your goal is to reach the next loot/reward. Two considering what is generally accepted as great gameplay in mmo land I have more fun playing snes megaman on hard mode, than doing anything remotely difficult using the crapstic skills and classes mmo's make you use.

[kaid]

I was always surpised that COH did not do any underwater zones. The whole game is setup for people who can fly/levitate/jump far so the game/AI and movement is designed with z axis movement in mind. Kedge keep was fun but it also showed why they did not do many underwater dungeons. The AI pathing the way eqlive did pathing really really really DID NOT LIKE Z AXIS movement. They had a hell of a time after it was first implemented and populated with mobs just suiciding like crazy due to pathing issues.

COH and champions online both already have to deal with those issues due to all the flying and alternative movements and if you can do that fine and have the AI handle it may as well do underwater.

[Sky]

(e.g. camping Hadden for the Fishbone Earring).

Back then I was a lot more hardcore and had Hadden perma-camped on our server. I gave out fishbones to my friends and was selling them on ebay because I was only working part-time as a DJ. I was one of only a couple high-level wizards, and he was an easy farm. It made me feel dirty.

Then I started playing a necro later on, and the Kedge rule was to evac when I FD'd. At the time my rl buddy was the evac wizard, and we usually played in the same room. We seldom died down there.

[HaemishM]

most MMOG players are completely retarded pussies who can't accept challenge

Can't accept heavy punishment for their failures, not the challenge itself.

I will grant that EQ1 had some SERIOUS issues wth over punishment for death. I was and am one of the most vocal assholes about having light death penalties. But Kedge wasn't even about the death penalty - most of the higher level raids in the game were in places that a raid wipeout would make corpse retrieval a fucking chore. Planes raids, both of the old world dragon raids, shit just regular dungeon crawling in places like Lower Guk or Mistmoore or Unrest or Solusek A or B were set up so that recovering from a wipe was tought.

No, Kedge was mostly just pussy MMOG players who didn't want a challenge of any kind. Bad enough you needed to be on your toes with water-breathing spells and potions if you couldn't get Hadden's earring (and as Sky said, most servers it was permacamped anyway). But then you had to worry about things coming at you from all angles, you had to move differently, and some fish would explode upon death, meaning you had to watch your adds, AOE spells and such. It took more effort than just pull, mez, assist and med. The gear that dropped was decent, but until you went deeper in, there was better gear in easier to deal with dungeons like Sol B, and easier experience to camp for in those dungeons as well. Combine that with the fact that it was well away from most population centers AND a pain in the ass to find without a map and people just wouldn't go there without someone leading an expedition. Most of those pain in the ass factors, I can understand, but I always felt that the experience (not the Xp bar kind, but the actual fun and strategy of the place) was worth the effort, more so than most MMOG dungeons.

[shiznitz]

Even if a game offered zones with tougher death penalties itemized with better loot, players would still avoid them for the most part. Those kind of zones also make itemization harder overall. EQ2 kind of does this by offering X2 encounters that a good single group can potentially beat.

[Sky]

most of the higher level raids in the game were in places that a raid wipeout would make corpse retrieval a fucking chore.

Hur, again...I was a necro by the time we were doing Kedge :P My wiz buddy and I never had a problem!

The things you list about Kedge are the reasons I liked it. It was interesting, most people avoided it and it was off the beaten path. Because seriously, fuck most mmotards, ignoring them makes the genre palatable.

Shiz, notice me deftly avoiding a rant about itemization progression.

[UnSub]

Xbox 360 version delayed.

Interest in playing diminishing.

[UnSub]

Perhaps.

However, I'm annoyed that 1) Cryptic was all over an Xbox 360 launch until what is three months until launch and 2) it's yet another PC MMO in a market full of existing and upcoming MMOs, whereas on the Xbox 360 the competition is FFXI, which is the equivalent of a overweight mall guard with heavy asthma.

[Sky]

So they'll "streamline" the shit out of the game to get it to run on a console, then release as pc exclusive?

LAWL WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

[Musashi]

Starting to get that ol' familiar preparation for let down feeling once again.  I'd say huge let down, but really I don't care that much already.

[Cadaverine]

I have one buddy key to give away for the Preview if anyone is interested.  Feel free to fight amongst yourselves for this incredible honor.   

Edit: Given away

[UnSub]

I've also got a buddy key. PM me if interested.

Gone baby gone.

[Triforcer]

If we are that close to release, is there a non-NDA-breaking power or skill list anywhere?  I've heard surprisingly little on that front. 

[Le0]

I wouldn't mind a preview key if possible!
But I'm from Europe is it okay or won't it work?

[Velorath]

Xbox 360 version delayed.

Interest in playing diminishing.

I'd be shocked if any MMOGs really ever hit the 360 at all, not counting XI and Phantasy Star Universe. The companies making MMORPGs simply don't have the support infrastructure necessary to do console stuff, SOE and Sony notwithstanding since they're one in the same now.

Development cycles for MMO's are still too long to really work on consoles.  With no certainty that the next generation of systems will have BC, that gives developers only a small window of time to release an MMO while a console is still in its prime.  The Agency for example, was announced just over 2 years ago, and has presumably been in development since before the PS3 was released.  There hasn't been any news on it in half a year, not even a vague idea of a release date, and by the time it gets released, the PS3 might well be more than halfway through its lifespan.  That's a pretty shitty proposistion, when a decent MMO on the PC can last for years.

For a 3rd party developer it's even harder.  If you want to get the game out there early in the generation, you've either got to go multiplatform, or you've got to try to predict early on which console is going to take the lead.

[Sky]

I'd check it out, not sure I have the time for it, though. I did love CoH.

[Numtini]

The best option for consoles would be a pseudo-mmo like DDO where its all instanced so you can keep things under control to match the console needs.

Take COH, remove the city other than Atlas and make everything instanced. Run it as cash shop/rmt. I think it would be moneyhats.

[Nevermore]

I always thought Guild Wars or a Guild Wars type game could work on console, because of the way they did the skill loadout.  CoH has way too many powers to work well on a console, imo.

[Venkman]

It's not the tech that makes MMOs on consoles a challenge. It's the business model. Consoles rely on title churn from different developers and publishers paying separate residuals. And the X360 specifically has a tiered subscription structure already. So putting an MMO on that not only brings obsessive behavior that doesn't compel users to buy further titles, it also asks them to pay for XBL and a monthly fee, or additional into microtransacations.

Plus, there's the other problem that most people in the west who have a console probably have a computer capable of running MMOs anyway.

"Someday" it'll happen. Maybe DCUO will actually be hugely successful on PS3. But it's not really as straightforward as some think it is. And tech is merely a secondary problem.

[Kageru]

I hope it's good, I certainly didn't mind the gameplay or environment of champions. Just disliked the lack of progression and repetition. Maybe this time with more experience and a larger budget they can make something even better. Of course more likely it will be another example of second-system effect. The fact they're actually focusing on the PC version first is another very encouraging sign.

I'm signed up for the beta, but if someone has a buddy key I certainly wouldn't say no.

[Jimbo]

Well for NDA, all we can say is that we are in the beta, and that is it.  So me, UnSub, and Cadaverine are in it, any one else?  I have a buddy key available too, so someone pm that is willing to try it out too.

[Signe]

I'm glad for the PC version, too.  I haven't tried it yet, but I'm pretty certain I want to play it on the PC.  I keep resubbing to CoH when I get bored with WoW or whatever else I'm playing.  It's always good fun for at least a month or so at a stretch, but then I wander off.  I'm definitely hoping one of these superhero games will endure a bit longer.  I really do enjoy the whole superhero thing.  It's much cooler than wandering around with pointy ears and giant sword named Johnson.  Happy it's coming out in June, too.  (allegedly).  I'm sure CoH won't last me even that long.  My times in the game get shorter and shorter - I know it too well, I think.

[UnSub]

If we are that close to release, is there a non-NDA-breaking power or skill list anywhere?  I've heard surprisingly little on that front. 

I find that interesting too. Betaleaks did have some stuff up on it, but I've go no idea what Betaleaks and MMOHell are currently up to given that both sites redirect to each other with no additional content that I can see.

[HaemishM]

I'm in the beta too.

[Malakili]

Well for NDA, all we can say is that we are in the beta, and that is it.  So me, UnSub, and Cadaverine are in it, any one else?  I have a buddy key available too, so someone pm that is willing to try it out too.

Are they giving them out frequently...actually you probably can't answer that.

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm in it also, but no buddy key as far as I know.