Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Ratman_tf]

Rifts is popular?

I picked it up on the tail end of my PNP days and it was interesting but I couldn't get into it.  It pretty surprising to me to hear it's going strong.  I did like rail gun armed cyborgs vs. dragons and what-not though.

Yah. It's infamous as the shitty system game with the kitchen sink setting. I think it's 2nd up next to D&D in sales, but I just pulled that out of my ass and wouldn't be surprised to find I'm wrong.

[Ingmar]

Rifts is popular?

I picked it up on the tail end of my PNP days and it was interesting but I couldn't get into it.  It pretty surprising to me to hear it's going strong.  I did like rail gun armed cyborgs vs. dragons and what-not though.

Yah. It's infamous as the shitty system game with the kitchen sink setting. I think it's 2nd up next to D&D in sales, but I just pulled that out of my ass and wouldn't be surprised to find I'm wrong.

I don't think Rifts has been 2nd for years, if it ever was. Palladium was almost driven out of business entirely last year due to an employee embezzelling over a million dollars - I think they only recovered something like $50k from him. Some of our local stores don't even carry Palladium stuff anymore. I don't have any official figures, but based on what I see on shelves, I suspect Exalted and GURPS both outsell Rifts at this point, and probably some other lines too.

[Mrbloodworth]

They are about to release another robotech game.... There is also 60+ books for rifts alone, not including the rest of the Palladium games that can be mixed with it. I have no idea if rifts was ever #1, 2, 3, or what ever. It really doesn't matter.

[Valmorian]

Considering that the rest of the Palladium can be/is used in rifts...it kinda does. And you got the quotes wrong.

So Ninjas and Superspies is the most popular "secret agent" type RPG, Palladium fantasy is the most popular fantasy RPG?  How about Splicers?  How's that doing?  This is just silly.  Palladium has a core of rabid followers, but the majority of Roleplayers out there are NOT Palladium-fanatics.  I'd be SHOCKED if Heroes Unlimited gets more play than Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, hell, even the Marvel Superhero RPGs probably have more players.

[Mrbloodworth]

Considering that the rest of the Palladium can be/is used in rifts...it kinda does. And you got the quotes wrong.

So Ninjas and Superspies is the most popular "secret agent" type RPG, Palladium fantasy is the most popular fantasy RPG?  How about Splicers?  How's that doing?  This is just silly.  Palladium has a core of rabid followers, but the majority of Roleplayers out there are NOT Palladium-fanatics.  I'd be SHOCKED if Heroes Unlimited gets more play than Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, hell, even the Marvel Superhero RPGs probably have more players.

You seem to have forgotten what was said, and what i was responding to.

That's not to say it doesn't get played, but the popularity of Rifts does NOT equate to an equal amount of popularity to the rest of the Palladium line.

Considering that the rest of the Palladium can be/is used in rifts...it kinda does.

The rest of your rant is well, some form of anger and placing words in people’s mouths.

[HaemishM]

Jack Emmert is still at Cryptic and was working on the design of MUO so I would expect him to continue with that on Champions Online. In other words I don't expect things to change.

I don't expect change either, but one can always hope.

EDIT: Also, glad to see someone else has some Underground love. That game was fucking awesome. I played a William Burroughs-esque junkie who exploded things.

[Mrbloodworth]

Jack Emmert is still at Cryptic and was working on the design of MUO so I would expect him to continue with that on Champions Online. In other words I don't expect things to change.

I don't expect change either, but one can always hope.

EDIT: Also, glad to see someone else has some Underground love. That game was fucking awesome. I played a William Burroughs-esque junkie who exploded things.

Underground was one of the best RPG settings ever. The system was rather hot too. Love that game.

[Nebu]

Rifts is popular?

I've heard of rifts and I haven't played P&P games since the early 1980's.  So yeah, I'd say it at least has a minor following. 

[Valmorian]

That's not to say it doesn't get played, but the popularity of Rifts does NOT equate to an equal amount of popularity to the rest of the Palladium line.

Considering that the rest of the Palladium can be/is used in rifts...it kinda does.

The rest of your rant is well, some form of anger and placing words in people’s mouths.

Not angry at all, and what I posted follows from your little comment there.

If Heroes Unlimited is supposed to be popular because Rifts was and the two are compatible, then following that logic every Palladium game world/supplement should have been popular to that degree.  That's just silly.  There's no reason to suspect that every person who owned Rifts owned Heroes Unlimited as well.

[IainC]

Heroes Unlimited was ace. My character was a special forces weasel (kind of a ferret thing for you yanks).

[Murgos]

If Heroes Unlimited is supposed to be popular because Rifts was and the two are compatible, then following that logic every Palladium game world/supplement should have been popular to that degree.

I think he's saying it's one way operation.  Any Palladium license can be used in Rifts, not that Rifts can be used in, for instance, Champions.  Thus the popularity of Rifts would then be the sum of all Palladium offerings.

It's still a dumb argument though, just because I can play my Champions character in Rifts doesn't mean I am going to or even want to or care at all for the setting.

[Valmorian]

It's still a dumb argument though, just because I can play my Champions character in Rifts doesn't mean I am going to or even want to or care at all for the setting.

Which was the point I was trying to make.  Rifts was popular, but that doesn't mean every other Palladium game was AS popular just because they were compatible. 

[Mrbloodworth]

It's still a dumb argument though, just because I can play my Champions character in Rifts doesn't mean I am going to or even want to or care at all for the setting.

Which was the point I was trying to make.  Rifts was popular, but that doesn't mean every other Palladium game was AS popular just because they were compatible. 

I understood your point about 5 postings ago.   

[Velorath]

That's a little like saying that Palladium fantasy is better known than D&D by virtue of it being published by the maker of Rifts. 

What sort of logic did you use to jump from 'Palladium products better known than Hero Games products', to 'Palladium products better known than TSR/WoTC products'?  And I'm not talking about which is the better system, or which one more people might actually play (although anecdotally, I know people who have blended in stuff from Heroes Unlimited with Rifts or TMNT), I'm saying Heroes Unlimited is likely the better known product by virtue of the fact that it's published by one of the biggest RPG publishers still running today.

[Ingmar]

That's a little like saying that Palladium fantasy is better known than D&D by virtue of it being published by the maker of Rifts. 

What sort of logic did you use to jump from 'Palladium products better known than Hero Games products', to 'Palladium products better known than TSR/WoTC products'?  And I'm not talking about which is the better system, or which one more people might actually play (although anecdotally, I know people who have blended in stuff from Heroes Unlimited with Rifts or TMNT), I'm saying Heroes Unlimited is likely the better known product by virtue of the fact that it's published by one of the biggest RPG publishers still running today.

You are, I think, gravely overestimating Palladium's current size and influence. They're very much held back by their production values, which are very low by today's standards (last I heard Kevin Siembieda still did all the layout by hand - it ends up looking something like a photocopied college reader with stuff in different fonts, sizes, etc) and by their refusal to participate in larger industry trends. If they had been willing to try a Rifts d20 book, they could have been printing money hats, I think, but as it is the industry is leaving them behind.

WotC, White Wolf, Green Ronin, Privateer Press, Goodman Games, Steve Jackson Games, these companies are probably all outperforming Palladium, and I'm sure I missed some others that are too.

If I had to hazard a guess as to what the most known/played superhero RPG is these days, I would say it is almost certainly Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds.

[Velorath]

WotC, White Wolf, Green Ronin, Privateer Press, Goodman Games, Steve Jackson Games, these companies are probably all outperforming Palladium, and I'm sure I missed some others that are too.

If I had to hazard a guess as to what the most known/played superhero RPG is these days, I would say it is almost certainly Green Ronin's Mutants and Masterminds.

WotC and White Wolf, likely.  Green Ronin, probably.  Steve Jackson Games I somewhat doubt is outperfoming Palladium.  Likewise Privateer Press unless you're going to count all their miniature stuff also.  As for Goodman Games, I can't begin to guess.  Even halfway decent d20 product probably sell ok, but I'd be surprised if any of their products are as recognizable as some of Palladium's.

Anyhow, I'm not sure how I'm overestimating Palladium's size and influence by saying that their products are better known than Hero Games' products.

[Velorath]

It's still a dumb argument though, just because I can play my Champions character in Rifts doesn't mean I am going to or even want to or care at all for the setting.

Which would be something resembling a valid point if someone were trying to argue that 100% of Rifts players owned and liked Heroes Unlimited.  Arguing that there aren't a lot of people who looked into Heroes Unlimited because it shared rules with, and could be tied into Rifts is like arguing that there aren't a lot of people who looked into various D&D settings (especially prior to d20) simply for the fact that they used the D&D rules and were made by the same publisher.

Which was the point I was trying to make.  Rifts was popular, but that doesn't mean every other Palladium game was AS popular just because they were compatible. 

It means most of Palladium's settings are better known or more recognizable than stuff from publishers like Hero Games.  Trying to figure out which Superhero RPG actually gets played more is just about irrelevant.  It's a niche within a niche, and isn't going to make an ounce of difference in the MMO's success.

[tazelbain]

An ttrpg with a good setting would be a better canidate for an MMO than one with good mechinics.  The mechanics are going have to gutted to be a MMO.  No matter what.  But the majority of the setting can be kept.

[WindupAtheist]

There are only three tabletop RPG settings that matter outside of pen-and-paper enthusiast circles.  Dungeons & Dragons, Masquerade, and Battletech.  Most of everything else mentioned on this page is stuff I've never heard of, and I reside deeply enough in the general-purpose geek camp that this should worry you if you're thinking of trying to develop a game based on one of them.

[Murgos]

I would add Shadowrun to that list, along with the other three it's had a couple of successful games based on it (and a couple not so successful).

[UnSub]

There are only three tabletop RPG settings that matter outside of pen-and-paper enthusiast circles.  Dungeons & Dragons, Masquerade, and Battletech.

There's only one PnP RPG system that has really crossed over into pop culture - Dungeons and Dragons. All the others - Vampire, Giant Robots Shooting Each Other, Warhammer - have their niche crowds, but the normals will never have heard of them and will only understand them in vague terms, should you manage to corner one and try to talk to them about it. Or maybe normals are just vague about it because being cornered by an obese, sweaty manchild wearing dandruff-covered black clothes who's trying to pretend he's actually a sexy, sophisticated creature of the night makes them nervous.

... but I digress. For the most part, PnP RPG settings have no market pull compared to huge pop culture IPs like Star Trek or Buffy. But PnP RPG IPs are cheap, have the lore written and have already taken a stab at letting people play in their world, which gives MMO devs a place to start.

[Phred]

Jack Emmert is still at Cryptic and was working on the design of MUO so I would expect him to continue with that on Champions Online. In other words I don't expect things to change.

I don't expect change either, but one can always hope.

That's like hoping Brad McQuaid ever finishes a game.

[Phred]

There are only three tabletop RPG settings that matter outside of pen-and-paper enthusiast circles.  Dungeons & Dragons, Masquerade, and Battletech.

There's only one PnP RPG system that has really crossed over into pop culture - Dungeons and Dragons. All the others - Vampire, Giant Robots Shooting Each Other, Warhammer - have their niche crowds, but the normals will never have heard of them and will only understand them in vague terms, should you manage to corner one and try to talk to them about it. Or maybe normals are just vague about it because being cornered by an obese, sweaty manchild wearing dandruff-covered black clothes who's trying to pretend he's actually a sexy, sophisticated creature of the night makes them nervous.

... but I digress. For the most part, PnP RPG settings have no market pull compared to huge pop culture IPs like Star Trek or Buffy. But PnP RPG IPs are cheap, have the lore written and have already taken a stab at letting people play in their world, which gives MMO devs a place to start.

I'd say Warhammer might have a bit more awareness share just from the number of PC games shipped based on it. I've never heard of any of the other systems you guys have been mentioning but I know warhammer and to a smaller extent White Wolf based only on the  computer games I've played based on them.

[Kageru]

Warhammer at least has a rich and reasonably consistent lore that can be re-used. I've actually played PnP champions (albeit many years ago) and I can't remember any lore at all. Meanwhile the rules are going to need a lot of changes to work in a MMORPG (so exploitable).

[Evildrider]

The Marvel RPG was superrior to both Heroes Unlimited and Champions.   

[Ratman_tf]

The Marvel RPG was superrior to both Heroes Unlimited and Champions.   

FASERIP amirite?

[Evildrider]

The Marvel RPG was superrior to both Heroes Unlimited and Champions.   

FASERIP amirite?

Bingo!

[Fordel]

I would say most gamers know what BattleTech is as soon as you tell them "It's Mechwarrior". Then they start swearing allegiance to their respective Clan/House/MercUnit etc... 

[Slyfeind]

I started rattling off what FASERIP stands for, and it came out in my head like what SHAZAM stands for. FIGHTING! AGILITY! STRENGTH! ATLAS! ZEUS! ACHILLES! MERCURY! Then I remembered how I remembered Thieves' skills; PeePee Ol' FaRT Miss'd HiS DindiN; Claw ReaL. Holy fuck everybody shutup you're making me want my 80's back!!! Gonna watch old episodes of You Can't Do That On Television now, and reminisce how we bought every Palladium book just in case we wanted to put ninja cyborg elven Veritech-piloting sorceresses in our Rifts campaign.

[Signe]

I don't know what anyone is talking about anymore.  As far as I'm concerned, you are all babbling incoherently.

[Ratman_tf]

I made a Wing Commander game for the Mekton 2 ruleset using the hella kool blueprints with stats that came with the game.

Good times.

[UnSub]

I don't know what anyone is talking about anymore.  As far as I'm concerned, you are all babbling incoherently.

Sadly I do know what they are talking about.

... also goes to show that a lot of MMO players cut their teeth playing PnP RPGs.

[UnSub]

Normal people cut them playing old RPGs on consoles.

 

'Normal' and 'RPG' don't go together. You're just one of us Schild. Don't deny your true self.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

[UnSub]

In other news, Hero Games' first big announcement is that the 6th edition of the Champions PnP ruleset is due out in mid-2009.

Also, apparently Hero Games will be uploading the presentation to their website of their second big announcement scheduled for 10am PST on the 18th. This is the expected ChampO announcement.

[Venkman]

I played 3 hours of D&D total in my life, mostly in 10 minute sessions I couldn't wait to get away from. And forget the rest of the PnP stuff people are talking about. The moment someone uses the local comic book store as an example of market penetration, the reference is way too small to be considered AAA MMO viable insofar as IP equity is concerned.

"Champions" feels like an excuse. To get any numbers that exceed CoX, they need to not make the same mistakes (grind, all customization before you launch the game only, etc), and do a heck of a lot of marketing. Otherwise they'll just cannabalize CoX, which isn't a huge market to begin with. They'll get some attention for being on a console at all, if that happens. But they need to hoof it to launch or lose even that edge.