Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Dtrain]

MS bought Brad McQuaid a lot of drugs. They're obviously good for something. But yes, I see nothing MMO on their horizon for a long time to come. And I still blame Vanguard.

Let's play a game of making predictions for DC Online: Lack of details will continue for another 3 months until the first big group of screenshots come out. No good details about the game for another 3 months, then a bunch of cool sounding details all at once and a firm release date. Release date is pushed back due to a puzzling SWG-esque beta where all those cool sounding details don't quite work right, most of the kinks get ironed out and we see a decent but unremarkable game in about 12 months, at which point the internet promptly farts, rolls over and snuggles up to WoW again.

[HaemishM]

I'm actually happy MUO got shitcanned. We don't need another fucking Superhero Diku with a grindy grind leveling curve and 6,000 Wolverines per server.

[Signe]

But... but... I'm tired of CoX and want a new dress-up MMO! 

No, seriously. 

[Modern Angel]

But... but... I'm tired of CoX and want a new dress-up MMO! 

No, seriously. 

It's called a dresser.

[Nevermore]

But... but... I'm tired of CoX and want a new dress-up MMO! 

No, seriously. 

Paper Dolls Online!

[Jobu]

But... but... I'm tired of CoX and want a new dress-up MMO! 

No, seriously. 

It's called a dresser.

Does your dresser include pirate hats, medieval helmets, angel wings, and pasties? Actually.... don't answer that.

[Montague]

On a separate note:

 - a rumour on the CoH/V forums is that Cryptic will be announcing a deal with the Champions license on Feb 18th; it's just a rumour

A well balanced Champions-esque character creation system would be MMO nirvana. The IP itself is derivative shit.

[Nevermore]

I thought that's what they tried to do originally with City of Heroes, failed, and then we ended up with the AT system.

[HaemishM]

But... but... I'm tired of CoX and want a new dress-up MMO! 

No, seriously. 

Isn't Barbie making an MMOG?

[Montague]

I thought that's what they tried to do originally with City of Heroes, failed, and then we ended up with the AT system.

Pretty much. Instead of power frameworks there were archetypes, and instead of advantages and limitations we just got enhancements.

In all honesty the complete freedom of the Champs system would be a balancing nightmare, but a system with the "illusion" of freedom and the liberal addition of non-grindy character points is a compelling concept. Doubt it will see the light of day though.

[Aez]

What's in it for Crytpic?  At least they would had a popular IP with Marvel.  There's no point doing an other game with a smaller IP.  They should switch for fantasy, science fiction or something original.

I wonder what Cryptic is actually doing.  I hope they have 1-2 years done on something already.

[UnSub]

I'm actually happy MUO got shitcanned. We don't need another fucking Superhero Diku with a grindy grind leveling curve and 6,000 Wolverines per server.

So, which MMO are you currently looking forward to - the medieval fantasy diku with 6000 xxxBloodforKhornexxxs and a grindy PvP gear curve or the medieval fantasy diku with 6000 ...Crom...s and a grindy PvP gear curve? 

[UnSub]

I wonder what Cryptic is actually doing.  I hope they have 1-2 years done on something already.

Kestrel, their Community Content Writer, has indicated that Cryptic will be announcing something "soon".

BTW, if anyone sees Victor Watcher aka Sporkfire pop up anywhere, I'd like to know.

[Dtrain]

Mild mannered Victor Wachter is secretly Lum's alter-ego.

[Velorath]

I'm actually happy MUO got shitcanned. We don't need another fucking Superhero Diku with a grindy grind leveling curve and 6,000 Wolverines per server.

Ironically, that would keep it in line with about how many Wolverines there seem to be in the comics.

[HaemishM]

I'm actually happy MUO got shitcanned. We don't need another fucking Superhero Diku with a grindy grind leveling curve and 6,000 Wolverines per server.

So, which MMO are you currently looking forward to - the medieval fantasy diku with 6000 xxxBloodforKhornexxxs and a grindy PvP gear curve or the medieval fantasy diku with 6000 ...Crom...s and a grindy PvP gear curve? 

Whichever one doesn't suck monkey ass. Which could easily be either, both or neither.

[tasmia]

Confirmed: It's Champions Online

[Ratman_tf]

Confirmed: It's Champions Online

My guy is going to have a 100D6 NND Killing Attack, I'm calling him "Rules Rapist".

[UnSub]

Confirmed: It's Champions Online

That's hilarious.

For some reason I see Jack Emmert waving sadly goodbye to MS / Marvel as they drive off, only to walk into a meeting room to sign on the dotted line and pick up the Champions IP.

[Velorath]

Confirmed: It's Champions Online

I'm not sure what they have to gain by licensing Champions.  They already have experience in creating a superhero rule set, and Champions doesn't exactly bring a rich world and well known characters to the table.  Is this just some way to avoid stepping on CoH's toes by saying "we aren't competing with CoH by doing a more or less unofficial sequel, we're doing a licensed game"?

To be honest though, my first thought when seeing that cover was that I wanted to hear more about the Aliens game.

[UnSub]

Confirmed: It's Champions Online

I'm not sure what they have to gain by licensing Champions.  They already have experience in creating a superhero rule set, and Champions doesn't exactly bring a rich world and well known characters to the table.  Is this just some way to avoid stepping on CoH's toes by saying "we aren't competing with CoH by doing a more or less unofficial sequel, we're doing a licensed game"?

To be honest though, my first thought when seeing that cover was that I wanted to hear more about the Aliens game.

The way I see it (and having no inside knowledge at all) is this:

1) Cryptic puts a lot of work into developing a superhero MMO that will be MUO. They get various builds up and working on Vista and the Xbox 360.

2) At some point, MS / Marvel decide to pull the project. Someone who is more familiar with the kind of contracts that dev studios and IP licensees hold can fill in the blanks, but Cryptic probably gets to keep their work where it doesn't obviously violate copyright / the contract they signed.

3) Cryptic gets left with a superhero MMO build but no license to hang it off. Do they release an original IP? Do they seek investment from another source?

4) At some point, Cryptic's pen-and-paper connections pay off - Hero Games would just love to get their Champions system online. Hell, maybe these discussions started before the MUO deal popped up. How the bills are being split is unknown.

5) Cryptic is back on track with a superhero MMO release backed up by a less well-known IP but one with more flexibility. Whatever can legally be salvaged from the MUO production is / will be salvaged. Taking a quick scan of the Champions ruleset, it's very close to the AT system CoH/V uses but powersets are more flexible in development. Actually, having the Champions ruleset behind them makes it harder to be sued by NCsoft for creating a similar game because Champions is at least 10 years older than CoH/V.

6) Hero Games gets to make the jump to online (and are announcing it on the 18th). ChampO becomes a new source of income given the poor state of the PnP RPG industry.

I've got to say that Cryptic is run by a bunch of geniuses or a group of asylum residents. Taking on MUO while still developing CoH/V was a masterstroke imo, but a huge risk. Selling CoH/V and losing MUO only to take on ChampO... it's either inspired or insane.

[WindupAtheist]

WTF is Champions?  Meaningless IP as far as the general public goes.

[Margalis]

WTF is Champions?  Meaningless IP as far as the general public goes.

My thoughts exactly. Never even heard of it.

If anything it has negative value. The IP (I hesitate to even call it that) is a rules-set. Does anyone give a shit about what rules-set a MMORPG uses? So they have to do some work to conform to the rules (which may suck in practice) and the upside is...a name nobody has even heard of?

I can't wait for the press releases and forum posts that spin this is a good thing. That will be awkward.

I don't get your enthusiam UnSub. What is the upside here? "Less well-known" is putting it nicely...

[Lt.Dan]

That's the good thing about it - no one has huge expectations (*cough* star trek, star wars, star gate *cough*).

From a dev's point of view though it provides a huuuge leap in terms of crap they don't have to design.  How'd supers come about? check.  What organisations are around? check.  Main villains? check.  Powers, abilities, mechanics? check.  A rules system that has been tested and works? kind of  (if you know the ruleset you know exactly why).

Now the can spend that time making it fun.

[Velorath]

That's the good thing about it - no one has huge expectations (*cough* star trek, star wars, star gate *cough*).

From a dev's point of view though it provides a huuuge leap in terms of crap they don't have to design.  How'd supers come about? check.  What organisations are around? check.  Main villains? check.  Powers, abilities, mechanics? check.  A rules system that has been tested and works? kind of  (if you know the ruleset you know exactly why).

Now the can spend that time making it fun.

No, it pretty much just provides a ruleset, and that kind of thing needs to get heavily adapted to work as a computer game anyway.  Various supplements were released which allowed you to more or less mimic different comic eras or settings, which is great if you're an RPG gamer and feel like doing Golden Age comic heroes one week, and maybe something closer in tone to the Authority the next, but not so great for developers who are trying to make a setting for a persistant world.

[Simond]

There probably were a lot of factors involved in the decision to cancel. If MS / Marvel thinks that WoW is the only game in the market worth paying attention to, then they aren't ever going to release one. At the same time, if they looked at the Guild Wars model or any other Asian RMT-orientated MMO, then they are probably going to be disappointed there too.

However, what hasn't really been said yet (that I've seen) is that MUO was meant to give the Xbox 360 a MMO. I know that AoC has been announced as an Xbox 360 title, but according to the Technology FAQ on the AoC site, AoC isn't yet coming out on any consoles. Given that Xbox Live is one of the 360's crown jewels, a MMO seems like a natural fit. But even MS doesn't have confidence in console MMOs, apparently. Which leaves Sony in the driver's seat for console MMO development, with at least The Agency coming out on both PS3 and PC.

Alternatively, I've heard a lot of circumstancial evidence that the Xbox Live architecture doesn't scale well to MMO levels. If that's the case, the first Xbox MMO will probably be closer to Diablo or Hellgate London in terms of lots of instances for small teams. A 'traditional' world-format MMO wouldn't work.

Minor detail: There's a 360 port of FFXI live right now. 

[Aez]

5) Cryptic is back on track with a superhero MMO release backed up by a less well-known IP but one with more flexibility. Whatever can legally be salvaged from the MUO production is / will be salvaged. Taking a quick scan of the Champions ruleset, it's very close to the AT system CoH/V uses but powersets are more flexible in development. Actually, having the Champions ruleset behind them makes it harder to be sued by NCsoft for creating a similar game because Champions is at least 10 years older than CoH/V.

That's a pretty good reason.  They probably don't want to get sued by Marvel again.  Now they can just say : you didn't sue Champion before, we use the same IP, you can't sue us anymore.  Combined with the very open nature of the IP, I'd call the idea genius.  Of course, corporate lawyers will find a bullshit reason to sue no mather what.

[UnSub]

There probably were a lot of factors involved in the decision to cancel. If MS / Marvel thinks that WoW is the only game in the market worth paying attention to, then they aren't ever going to release one. At the same time, if they looked at the Guild Wars model or any other Asian RMT-orientated MMO, then they are probably going to be disappointed there too.

However, what hasn't really been said yet (that I've seen) is that MUO was meant to give the Xbox 360 a MMO. I know that AoC has been announced as an Xbox 360 title, but according to the Technology FAQ on the AoC site, AoC isn't yet coming out on any consoles. Given that Xbox Live is one of the 360's crown jewels, a MMO seems like a natural fit. But even MS doesn't have confidence in console MMOs, apparently. Which leaves Sony in the driver's seat for console MMO development, with at least The Agency coming out on both PS3 and PC.

Alternatively, I've heard a lot of circumstancial evidence that the Xbox Live architecture doesn't scale well to MMO levels. If that's the case, the first Xbox MMO will probably be closer to Diablo or Hellgate London in terms of lots of instances for small teams. A 'traditional' world-format MMO wouldn't work.

Minor detail: There's a 360 port of FFXI live right now. 

I learned that the other day 

Pretend I put the term 'next-gen' wherever it makes me appear less stupid. 

[WindupAtheist]

That's the good thing about it - no one has huge expectations (*cough* star trek, star wars, star gate *cough*).

SWG was reviled for failing to live up to expectations, but it's problem wasn't expectations, it was failure.  This Champions thing is an IP with minimal relevance to the market, period.  It being a legal ass-covering manuver is the most logical explanation I've seen thus far.

My ludicrously early prediction is that it ends up as just another post-Blizzard MMO that bumbles around with fewer subscriptions than prime EQ1, while a bunch of apologists with WoW inferiority complexes insist that it isn't a failure because 100k subs or whatever will turn some sort of profit eventually.

[Numtini]

What's in it for Crytpic?  At least they would had a popular IP with Marvel.  There's no point doing an other game with a smaller IP.  They should switch for fantasy, science fiction or something original.

I don't get it either. I would love to see COH updated and redone as a high fantasy game. Do it on the cheap with the same engine, instance the entire thing and use a free to play with cash shop model, and it would be huge.

All I remember about Champions is a friend trying to get me to play it in high school, we never got to playing, but made characters up and they all turned out as some kind of refugee from the psycho ward by taking all these personality disorders in order to buy more powers. If there was a background I never knew about it.

[Venkman]

I'd be interested to find out just how much of MUO actually existed for them to pick up and run with in this new form. Why make another PC game to compete with their home-brewed CoX? Why did they sell CoX anyway? I mean, could they really have thought MUO was going to see the light of day ever when the vast majority of outsiders assumed it be going away? Maybe talk of sales of the IP to NC predated public skepticism...

In any case, if it does come out ever, I'm going to be interested to see how much of the new Cryptic injects some new (ie, non-grindy) thinking into an MMO.

Isn't Barbie making an MMOG?

Been out for awhile. Warning: colors.

[UnSub]

WTF is Champions?  Meaningless IP as far as the general public goes.

My thoughts exactly. Never even heard of it.

If anything it has negative value. The IP (I hesitate to even call it that) is a rules-set. Does anyone give a shit about what rules-set a MMORPG uses? So they have to do some work to conform to the rules (which may suck in practice) and the upside is...a name nobody has even heard of?

I can't wait for the press releases and forum posts that spin this is a good thing. That will be awkward.

I don't get your enthusiam UnSub. What is the upside here? "Less well-known" is putting it nicely...

Champions is an IP that means something to a certain nerd subset, but it's not so restrictive that it locks Cryptic into much in the way of community expectations. Or else we'll find out that Champions has some weird underground cult following ala Shadowrun where apparently everyone is an expert about what the IP should be. For the most part, you're right - no-one will care about the exact nature of the ruleset provided it is implemented in a fun way.

Taking on Champions gives Cryptic a base to work from that they can also mould. If Cryptic has a lot of established materials sitting around for MUO they've now got an IP to hang those things around. That saves a lot of thinking time. Plus Hero Games will want it to do well, so they are likely to throw their time behind it.

Besides all of that, I thought the general consensus on IPs in MMOs is that they are only good for getting your first few customers through the door. I'm happy to see how ChampO turns out because I'm a Cryptic fanboi. Past that point, be it MUO or ChampO, if the game sucks, people aren't going to play it.

Another question is how else Cryptic could have salvaged what happened with MUO. Walking this path seems to be about as good as it would get.

Plus, if Cryptic was going to be cuntish about it, they've cockblocked MUO with another superhero MMO. And while it may not have the same recognition as MUO, it's still more competition that whoever ends up restarting MUO will have to deal with.

My enthusiasm is that I find this announcement hilarious. As I said, it's either genius or it's insane. 

[UnSub]

That's the good thing about it - no one has huge expectations (*cough* star trek, star wars, star gate *cough*).

SWG was reviled for failing to live up to expectations, but it's problem wasn't expectations, it was failure.  This Champions thing is an IP with minimal relevance to the market, period.  It being a legal ass-covering manuver is the most logical explanation I've seen thus far.

My ludicrously early prediction is that it ends up as just another post-Blizzard MMO that bumbles around with fewer subscriptions than prime EQ1, while a bunch of apologists with WoW inferiority complexes insist that it isn't a failure because 100k subs or whatever will turn some sort of profit eventually.

SWG managed to fail to live up to the expectations of being a space opera MMO as well as fail in a number of key areas.

Since the Champions IP isn't well known, Cryptic are open to treating it like a new IP provided they pay attention to a few key areas (yeah, I'm thinking about DDO here).

Your predication is a pretty safe one, since no post-WoW MMO has hit EQ1 prime numbers. As for final sub numbers... there's a chance that ChampO could do well on the Xbox 360 which is nearly virgin ground. We'll see.

[Nevermore]

They licensed it probably because it was a cheap way of not having to develop a whole knew background/mythos from scratch again.  Who cares if only a handful of people know the lore right now?  That doesn't seem to be the point of picking up the license.

[tasmia]

Oh, and can I get a link to information on this "champions" shit so I can judge whether Cryptic is just being punks or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_%28role-playing_game%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_Universe
http://www.herogames.com/get/HeroUniverse1.pdf