Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Simond]

If there was a background I never knew about it.

From what I can remember from ohgod years ago, it's pretty generic comic stuff & not different from the CoX stuff in any significant way. IIRC, the Big Bads include an Ultron ripoff and a Dr Doom ripoff.

The actual rules are crunchy and very abusable, though.

[cmlancas]

I think we should have an Internet v Scientology MMO. Make it shitty and flash based, but everyone gets to fight Tom Cruise, Issac Hayes, and John Travolta at the end.

Prepare to engage moneyhattery.

[Murgos]

Champions was a good enough system.  As I recall it was very flexible, in that you could have pretty much any type of character and be in pretty much any type of setting.  I'm pretty sure it was extended into lots of different PNP games, or at least I recall seeing "Based on the Champions Role Playing system" on all kinds of boxes back in the day.

Kind of an antecedent to the current D20 system.

[Ratman_tf]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

[Valmorian]

Champions was a good enough system.  As I recall it was very flexible, in that you could have pretty much any type of character and be in pretty much any type of setting.  I'm pretty sure it was extended into lots of different PNP games, or at least I recall seeing "Based on the Champions Role Playing system" on all kinds of boxes back in the day.

Kind of an antecedent to the current D20 system.

Champions is still around, and has more support than it did even in the heyday of the 80's.  The core book is just "The Hero System" now, and covers pretty much all mechanics with the sourcebooks being more background info, settings, characters and examples of how to  build different effects using the core system.  It's only of the few RPGs I know of where everything game related is completely contained in the core book.

[Valmorian]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

Well to be fair, amongst Pencil and Paper RPGs, Champions is likely the most famous Superhero RPG ever.

[Signe]

I've never heard of Champions but I don't care.  Thanks for the Barbie suggestion (smart arse) but I'm not interested.  The models look like crap and I don't want to play an MMO that could land me in jail if I want to talk about my pussies.  I want a proper dress up superhero MMO complete with spandex and cameltoe.  Nothing else will do.

[Morfiend]

From the Wiki:

-the martial artist (or martist for short) - lightly-armored hand-to-hand combatant who fights with skill, quickness, and agility (Daredevil)

-the brick - slower hand-to-hand fighter who relies more on raw strength and tougher defenses (Incredible Hulk)

-the energy projector - primary combat ability is a ranged physical attack, which, despite the name, is not necessarily energy-based (Green Arrow, Cyclops)

-the mentalist - abilities target the mind, not the physical foe (Professor X)

Hey look, Champions has Scrappers, Tankers, Blasters and Controllers. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK?

[Valmorian]

Hey look, Champions has Scrappers, Tankers, Blasters and Controllers. WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK?

Have you played Champions?  There are no classes in it, and while you CAN build all of those things, you can build just about any kind of character you can conceive of in it.

[Typhon]

Rather then focus on what does or does come with the choice of IP (I think the legal angle + pre-existing source material is as likely a reason as any), I'm more interested in the "for PC and console" part.

If they manage to release a super hero game with control/combat similar to ONI I will be very excited.  Even if they have to intstance the shit out of everything and do a bunch of other tricks if they can get combat that is more like twitch based then turn based that would be something new and interesting.

And if the system is less restrictive then the CoX AT system, that's just gravy.

[Velorath]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

Well to be fair, amongst Pencil and Paper RPGs, Champions is likely the most famous Superhero RPG ever.

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

[Sauced]

Champions was a good enough system.  As I recall it was very flexible, in that you could have pretty much any type of character and be in pretty much any type of setting.  I'm pretty sure it was extended into lots of different PNP games, or at least I recall seeing "Based on the Champions Role Playing system" on all kinds of boxes back in the day.

Kind of an antecedent to the current D20 system.

The HERO system.  Built a large fantasy campaign back in the day.  Good support for knockback, stun, bleeding, localized damage effects, that sort of thing.  Multiple 6-sided die system.  Basically each character starts with N points, where N is whatever you want with guidelines for the type of campaign.  150 for Epic/Godly, 100 for Superhero/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, 50 for Modern/Spy, etc.  "Classes" are pre-built archetypes that you buy with points to make it easier, but what fun is that?  Disadvantages were always the best part - you can increase your points by adding things like "Hunted by So and So" or "Extreme limp in cold temps hampers movement".

[Signe]

i cant wait,

[Montague]

The ONLY draw that Champions Online is going to have is a freeform points-based system where you can have total character customization. Anything else and it is dead in the water, because nobody gives two shits about Mechanon, UNTIL and all the other crap they put in the books to give some semblance of story, and if people wanted to be straitjacketed into a DIKU grind they could play COX.

Supposedly it's going to have superhero-supervillain PVP ala COX. My PnP players were very adept at breaking Champions with creative limitations and advantages. I don't see how Cryptic can keep the openess of the Champs system as a draw without it being hopelessly broken by the masses of PVP MMOGtards.

[Ingmar]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

Well to be fair, amongst Pencil and Paper RPGs, Champions is likely the most famous Superhero RPG ever.

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

In terms of how well-regarded the ruleset seems to be among the RPG rules wonks, Champions definitely has it hands down over HU.

Also: Pray that we never have an online Palladium game. It will make the worst MMO you can think of look like pure awesome.

[tmp]

I've never heard of Champions but I don't care.  Thanks for the Barbie suggestion (smart arse) but I'm not interested.  The models look like crap and I don't want to play an MMO that could land me in jail if I want to talk about my pussies.  I want a proper dress up superhero MMO complete with spandex and cameltoe.  Nothing else will do.

Matrix Online? At least as far as dress up, spandex and cameltoes are concerned...

[WayAbvPar]

The ONLY draw that Champions Online is going to have is a freeform points-based system where you can have total character customization.

I would play solely for this. Class-based systems make baby Jesus cry.

[Ratman_tf]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

Well to be fair, amongst Pencil and Paper RPGs, Champions is likely the most famous Superhero RPG ever.

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

In terms of how well-regarded the ruleset seems to be among the RPG rules wonks, Champions definitely has it hands down over HU.

Also: Pray that we never have an online Palladium game. It will make the worst MMO you can think of look like pure awesome.

Shit. Rifts was just Kevin Siembieda making up stats for Kevin Long's artwork.

[tmp]

I would play solely for this. Class-based systems make baby Jesus cry.

I dunno, Jesus could mesh with class-based superhero MMO pretty well.

[Valmorian]

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

There are a core group of Palladium fanatics, this is true, but amongst the superhero RPGs Champions is generally considered to be the best of the bunch.  I've found the new Mutants and Masterminds to be a somewhat worthy successor, however.

But Heroes Unlimited, like all Palladium RPGs, is pure garbage system-wise.

[Venkman]

Have you played Champions? There are no classes in it, and while you CAN build all of those things, you can build just about any kind of character you can conceive of in it

This would be about the only thing that would make me (and a few others apparently) take a look at Champions MMO. However, I doubt it'll survive transition into an actual playable game. This is just "skills-based" said another way and the last game to give that the ol' college try was canned.

In general, this feels sorta wierd. I guess we're supposed to care because a "veteran" MMO studio announced a new game. Except:

• The part that CoX got right continued to be the first 1/3 of the game (creation through new abilities). This is about the sum total of any credit "Cryptic" the company name would get.
  
• And yet, they sold off all of the rights, including the people (that were left), of everything that was CoX
  
• Champions IP has less relevance to modern MMOers than even Conan.

The only excited I have for this genre anymore is when someone completely divorced from the past comes to give it a try. Unfortunately, they're mostly going after a different audience.

[Nevermore]

The ONLY draw that Champions Online is going to have is a freeform points-based system where you can have total character customization.

I would play solely for this. Class-based systems make baby Jesus cry.

Having a good point-based/non-level system would indeed be very nice.  I remain highly skeptical of that ever happening, though.

[WayAbvPar]

I would play solely for this. Class-based systems make baby Jesus cry.

I dunno, Jesus could mesh with class-based superhero MMO pretty well.

Heh. That reminds me of Champions sessions of yore. We would ask our GM approximately how many points it would take to make Superman  in the Champions ruleset. His answer was always the same: "All of them."

[HaemishM]

The ONLY draw that Champions Online is going to have is a freeform points-based system where you can have total character customization.

I would play solely for this. Class-based systems make baby Jesus cry.

Yes. And I think that's the big reason I like this announcement. COH was originally supposed to be like an online version of Champions, only they went the class-based grindy way because of initial beta testing feedback. If they rip out the points-based character creation and class it up, it'll just be COH with a Champions storyline, which is what it may be anyway.

But for fuck's sake, whatever they do, please don't make it as grindy as COH.

[shiznitz]

I don't see how the same people that bailed on the points/skill/powers system for CoH because of balance issues are suddenly going to be able to implement it.  This game is bound to have some kind of class system, regardless of what they call it. Jack Emmert has no problem with putting exp grind in a game. He will do it again.

[Merusk]

My College roommate will be all over this.. (or would be if he still games. No idea.)  Fucker had more "champions" and "Hero system" stories than he had War Games (the little hex maps w/ cardboard counters) stories.

His favorite was the guy who had, "Rex Bannon's ability to pilot any vehicle ever created."  It was just between him and the GM, but damn it sounded amusing.  "Oh fuck, we're trapped and they only way out is 20 stories overhead, accessible only by these weird spider-vehicles."  "That's OK, I know how to work these, get in!"

As flexible as the system was for P&P, it will suffer from CRPGs inherent need to have rules, limitations and structure.

[Venkman]

I don't see how the same people that bailed on the points/skill/powers system for CoH because of balance issues are suddenly going to be able to implement it.

Because it's not the same people, which is what makes this interesting. I believe the only Cryptic folks that didn't take the NC job offer are the folks removed from the function of game design and daily development activities. So it's a whole new game.

[UnSub]

It seems more like a case of (and to pull a number out of the air) having a superhero MMO 40% done, so finishing the superhero MMO with a new coat of paint seems a better idea than scrapping the idea and starting again.

But seriously, MMO studios follow up genre work with genre work. Mythic follows up DAOC with WAR. Turbine has AC, DDO and LOTRO. Not all studios do it obviously and it's the execution that defines how a game turns out, but a lot of studios release same genre follow-ups (but then medieval fantasy is such a diverse genre).

As a side note, Champions did try to get a PC game out before.

[Phred]

In any case, if it does come out ever, I'm going to be interested to see how much of the new Cryptic injects some new (ie, non-grindy) thinking into an MMO.

Just curious as to why you would expect any non-grindy thinking from Cryptic at this point. Nothing in their history with CoX supports anything other than increasing the grind as a direction they like to go.

From the initial purple nerf to the relatively recent rebalancing of powers and augments or whatever they were called, every major patch they ever did pushed people more towards the grind and less towards the super hero smashing crowds of villains everyone loved about the game to begin with.

[Trippy]

Jack Emmert is still at Cryptic and was working on the design of MUO so I would expect him to continue with that on Champions Online. In other words I don't expect things to change.

[Nevermore]

I don't see how the same people that bailed on the points/skill/powers system for CoH because of balance issues are suddenly going to be able to implement it.

Because it's not the same people, which is what makes this interesting. I believe the only Cryptic folks that didn't take the NC job offer are the folks removed from the function of game design and daily development activities. So it's a whole new game.

Geko, who was the 'powers guy' for all the early life of City of Heroes, is one of the devs who moved over to MUO when Cryptic started development on that (which is why Castle is the 'powers guy' in CoX now).  There were others as well, but Geko stands out because a lot of what's fucked up with game balance in CoX is his fault.  Sure all the devs working on CoX at the time took the NCsoft job, but a lot had already been moved over to the MUO project.  That's why I'm highly skeptical they'll be able to make a freeform/points system work when the same Statesman & Geko failed before.

[Mrbloodworth]

It's an obscure little RPG with a rules system that isn't very friendly to CRPGs. (IMO)

The liscence is crap for a MMOG. I hope they got it for cheap.

Well to be fair, amongst Pencil and Paper RPGs, Champions is likely the most famous Superhero RPG ever.

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

Going to agree.

Also going to put into the pile of "They should have used", this:

Underground is a satirical role playing game released by Mayfair Games in 1993 as a commentary on the politics and society of the early 1990s as expressed through the year 2021. Inspired by the Dark Age of Comic Books, Aeon Flux, and the political and social uphevals of the early 1990s, the game attempts to inspire social and political debate among its players as well as provide entertainment through playing renegade superheroes. Players typically play unemployed, genetically enhanced veterans of corporate wars.

wikipedia article.

[Valmorian]

I'd aruge that Heroes Unlimited is probably better known, simply by virtue of the fact that it's published by Palladium and has a ruleset compatible with Rifts.

Going to agree.
[/quote]


That's a little like saying that Palladium fantasy is better known than D&D by virtue of it being published by the maker of Rifts.  Seriously, when it comes to Superhero PnP RPGs, Champions has stood out ahead of the pack since the 80's.  I can point you to a half dozen or so groups that play it TODAY at my friendly local gaming store, and while Palladium IS popular I've never once run across a group of people playing Heroes Unlimited.  That's not to say it doesn't get played, but the popularity of Rifts does NOT equate to an equal amount of popularity to the rest of the Palladium line.

[Mrbloodworth]

That's a little like saying that Palladium fantasy is better known than D&D by virtue of it being published by the maker of Rifts.  Seriously, when it comes to Superhero PnP RPGs, Champions has stood out ahead of the pack since the 80's.  I can point you to a half dozen or so groups that play it TODAY at my friendly local gaming store, and while Palladium IS popular I've never once run across a group of people playing Heroes Unlimited.  That's not to say it doesn't get played, but the popularity of Rifts does NOT equate to an equal amount of popularity to the rest of the Palladium line.

Considering that the rest of the Palladium can be/is used in rifts...it kinda does. And you got the quotes wrong.

[Murgos]

Rifts is popular?

I picked it up on the tail end of my PNP days and it was interesting but I couldn't get into it.  It pretty surprising to me to hear it's going strong.  I did like rail gun armed cyborgs vs. dragons and what-not though.