Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[UnSub]

Here's the link.

It's possible, but there is also a lot of "No-one would talk to us, so it must be true!".

EDIT - updating the title to reflect subsequent events.

EDIT 2: because "MUO officially dead; Cryptic picks up Champions Online" makes no sense when MUO is being resurrected.

EDIT 3: because September isn't Spring 2009.

[Trippy]

They are on the right track but are looking at it from the wrong side. Think Microsoft and their history with MMOs. On the other hand Cryptic got a bunch of money from their sale of their part of CoH/CoV to NCsoft so they have opportunities to do things without needing a publisher to fund things like before.

[UnSub]

They are on the right track but are looking at it from the wrong side. Think Microsoft and their history with MMOs. On the other hand Cryptic got a bunch of money from their sale of their part of CoH/CoV to NCsoft so they have opportunities to do things without needing a publisher to fund things like before.

If the rumour is true, hopefully Cryptic isn't facing a lot of bills in paying back to Marvel / Microsoft for the cancelled MUO development.

Again, if the rumour is true, the MUO license is a poisoned chalice that no MMO dev should pick up again. It's been through Vivendi and Sigil before, now Cryptic...

I wonder why MS, who apparently gets online strategy in almost every other area, can't comprehend why they should publish a MMO?

[Venkman]

I wonder why MS, who apparently gets online strategy in almost every other area, can't comprehend why they should publish a MMO?

I actually think that answers itself. It's easy to think of MMOs as money-printing machines, until you're faced with the daunting task of actually building one, or hosting it. MS seems more appropriately structure to manage multifunctional systems that can deliver content and collect money from it a dozen different ways, for themselves and partners. MMOs are comparatively very vertical. It might just not be a good culture fit at all.

[geldonyetich2]

Still too insubstantial to say if MUO is really in trouble or not.  Just because the local 7-11 clerk and his manager don't feel obligated to give you the time of day (perhaps fearing it would invalidate their greencard) doesn't mean that they're moments away from closing the store.

Not that MUO isn't in trouble.  It's staring down the same barrel that ultimately pillaged Star Wars Galaxies: No game can be developed that will satisfy fan expectations of such a substantial intellectual property.  You might have a chance with a Spiderman game, a rare few of those turned out pretty good, but trying to tackle the entire Marvel Universe in one go is begging for serious compromise.

[Trippy]

I wonder why MS, who apparently gets online strategy in almost every other area, can't comprehend why they should publish a MMO?

I think they do understand that they should it's just that they've been having a hard time finding a good project to support. AC1 was okay, AC2 was a disaster, Mythica got cancelled, Vanguard was another disaster that they wisely unloaded, and now it's very likely they'll back out of MUO as well leaving it up to Cryptic to renegotiate with Marvel if Cryptic still wants to do it.

[UnSub]

I wonder why MS, who apparently gets online strategy in almost every other area, can't comprehend why they should publish a MMO?

I think they do understand that they should it's just that they've been having a hard time finding a good project to support. AC1 was okay, AC2 was a disaster, Mythica got cancelled, Vanguard was another disaster that they wisely unloaded, and now it's very likely they'll back out of MUO as well leaving it up to Cryptic to renegotiate with Marvel if Cryptic still wants to do it.

Marvel signed the licensing deal with Microsoft Games Studios and then MSGS brought on Cryptic. I wonder (even if they wanted to) if Marvel could cut Microsoft out of the deal and go directly with Cryptic.

Of course, Cryptic wants to do more back-end stuff than they did with CoH/V, which this scenario would give them an opportunity to do.

[Falwell]

The fact that everyone asked about MUO dodges or ignores the question is pretty telling in and of itself.

[Nerf]

Didn't MS publish Asheron's Call 1?  I could've sworn I used to have to login through a Microsoft page, and click the "play" button on the browser window that popped up for Darktide.

[Trippy]

Three posts up.

[Nerf]

Whoops, missed that post.  I think the choice is clear though -  Asheron's Call 3, give us back AC1 skillsets, physics projectiles, and teh shiny, along with d2/HG:L randomized loot tables.  Oh, and naked pictures of natalie portman.

Best MMO -EVER-

[Velorath]

Hard to get too worked up over this since they never really told us anything about the game.  By the time this thing got released, the 360 would have been nearing the end of its lifespan.

[UnSub]

Maybe, but the target release for MUO was 2008 and it was also Vista OS-compatible. So not everything hung on the Xbox 360 and it would have been a slight draw towards getting Vista more accepted by gamers.

[cmlancas]

I'm with Nerf. But I want some sort of playable PvP that has no bearing on my character at all, via DotA style gameplay.

Oh, and if Natalie Portman is on the box, I'll buy a CE.

[Nerf]

We're going to be in disagreement there then, in _MY_ game, when you die in PvP, we hire someone to show up to your house and kick you in the balls.  However, the first person to reach 10,000 kills gets to stick it in natalie portmans pooper.

I think it's a fair trade, really.

[Velorath]

Maybe, but the target release for MUO was 2008 and it was also Vista OS-compatible.

Yes, and we all know how likely MMO's are to hit their target release dates, especially ones that haven't released any screenshots or gameplay details.

[UnSub]

Maybe, but the target release for MUO was 2008 and it was also Vista OS-compatible.

Yes, and we all know how likely MMO's are to hit their target release dates, especially ones that haven't released any screenshots or gameplay details.

I'd prefer it if MMOs shut the hell up until they actually had something to say. I'm sick of MMOs launching sites filled with nothing but fluff content years before they ever come close to beta / release.

Besides, we all know how reliable gameplay details are when devs are explaining something that's only been half-implemented and is completely untested.

[UnSub]

1up's follow-up.

Still lots of unconfirmed sources, but the case against MUO seeing the light of day has grown stronger.

I for one would have loved to have seen the Virtua Fighter / 3D fighter combat mechanic implemented.

My opinion on this project is that, given this information, it looks like there was a lack of clear vision about how MUO should operate. Assuming the sources are accurate, I can only think that there are several very loud voices that have pulled this project in different directions.

[Margalis]

How can you possibly fuck this one up? Jesus Christ.

You made a super-hero MMO that basically let you play as Marvel characters. That's why you GOT the license in the first place. Just take the same game, reskin it slightly, make Wolverine a quest NPC, fix the most glaring flaws and call it a day.

This is like blowing an open dunk.

[geldonyetich2]

The article makes it pretty clear how they screwed up this dish.  Start with too many cooks (Cryptic, Marvel, Microsoft), add a heaping helping of cognitive dissonance (Virtua Fighter combat versus a pushbutton combo system), and put it on the backburner made of insurmountable technical problems (following Spiderman around with 478 friends at 4 FPS) until it's burnt to an inedible crisp.

I'm not sure why management didn't step in and make some solid decisions, but I'm not impressed with their completely hands-off approach.  Maybe it's not too late and they'll do just that.  We can hope so, if we ever want to play in a MMO with Spidy.

[Venkman]

We can hope so, if we ever want to play in a MMO with Spidy.

Otherwise, anyone surprised given the history?

[MisterNoisy]

The article makes it pretty clear how they screwed up this dish.  Start with too many cooks (Cryptic, Marvel, Microsoft), add a heaping helping of cognitive dissonance (Virtua Fighter combat versus a pushbutton combo system), and put it on the backburner made of insurmountable technical problems (following Spiderman around with 478 friends at 4 FPS) until it's burnt to an inedible crisp.

I was really hoping that they'd just do Crackdown-style gameplay + CoH's character creator and instance it to keep latency down to a dull roar.

[shiznitz]

How can you possibly fuck this one up? Jesus Christ.

You made a super-hero MMO that basically let you play as Marvel characters. That's why you GOT the license in the first place. Just take the same game, reskin it slightly, make Wolverine a quest NPC, fix the most glaring flaws and call it a day.

This is like blowing an open dunk.

I can imagine MS execs thinking along the same lines but coming to the conclusion:

Since CoX did XXX subscribers, how much more would a Marvel-skinned MMO actually do since anyone who is interested in a superhero MMO already tried CoX?

I don't agree with that logic, but it is certainly a conceivable train of thought for a corporate guy.

[BigBlack]

I don't agree with that logic, but it is certainly a conceivable train of thought for a corporate guy.

Well, frankly, it makes sense to me - at least as a reason why you wouldn't simply re-skin CoH.  But the real issue seems to be that fundamental design decisions weren't ironed out nearly as early as they should be.

[geldonyetich2]

I was really hoping that they'd just do Crackdown-style gameplay + CoH's character creator and instance it to keep latency down to a dull roar.

(Crackdown?  Oh right, Crackdown.)

Yeah, that would be pretty cool if they had went in that direction.

[Margalis]

I can imagine MS execs thinking along the same lines but coming to the conclusion:

Since CoX did XXX subscribers, how much more would a Marvel-skinned MMO actually do since anyone who is interested in a superhero MMO already tried CoX?

Isn't that something you think about before you sign someone up and begin funding them?

A Marvel-skinned MMO is exactly what Marvel Online was going to be. If there is no money in that then don't start the project.  If you think that CoX defines the upper size of the market and that isn't good enough for you then don't greenlight the project in the first place.

Now I suppose it's possible they out-thought themselves and figured they needed some sort of amazing differentiators. But then, why sign up Cryptic if you don't want them to make something similar to CoX?

This appears to be total mismanagement. Sign up a team because they made a super-hero MMO already, then decide that they have to do something totally different because their first game wasn't popular enough?

[BigBlack]

Not to mention that, bringing the team over wholesale after their first MMO, you're essentially begging for the second-system effect to kick in.

I think ten years from now, this sort of mismanagement of the MMO-space by the suits will be rightly seen as clownshoes-level silly.  The market just hasn't produced execs yet who really bring 'veteran experience' to bear in this slice of the industry yet.

[UnSub]

Not to mention that, bringing the team over wholesale after their first MMO, you're essentially begging for the second-system effect to kick in.

AFAIK, this didn't entirely happen. Jack Emmert, Creative Director went to MUO, as did some of the CoH/V people. However, a lot of established CoH/V people elected to stay / were left on CoH/V. Cryptic then hired a lot of new people, a number of which were those with Xbox360 development experience.

If MS does pull the plug on MUO, they would have done it just over 12 months into official development. That's a pretty short time for a MMO to be developed. Perhaps someone did thing that all Cryptic had to do was reskin CoH/V and throw in the Baxter Building somewhere.

[Venkman]

Isn't that something you think about before you sign someone up and begin funding them?

You'd certainly think that. But this is the same genre in which a startup of three people secured the Star Trek rights and then hired the people to, like, design the game. This is why I was asking for that old Sprite commercial in Gen Disc :) You don't need anything but a handshake to start a relationship and it's entirely believable for a suit to assume (people who made CoX) + (Marvel) > CoX, at least until they realize the latter was never all that huge at a time when Big Company Deep Pockets Success is measured in millions of subs.

[BigBlack]

Re: the team switch, I stand corrected.  In that case, it was only a bad idea for all those other reasons. 

[Aez]

I'm surprised.  Cryptic is(was?) the most professional mmo developper I ever saw in action.  Their community management was AAA and COH was rock solid at release.  I played their game for 6 months, the patches made sense, the updates had good content.  I wish HG:L had bought their engine. The only thing that killed the game for me is that no one used the pvp arena 2 weeks after it came up and NO LOOT.

Anyway, I hope they will make an other game.

[Montague]

Hmmm... I have a different take.

This isn't on Cryptic I don't think. This is on Marvel.

"In City of Heroes, users were able to craft their favorite comic superheroes through the dynamic create-a-character system. Expectedly, our source tell us, you wouldn't have that option in Marvel Universe Online, and "there was bickering back and forth about how much the "real" Marvel heroes would play a part (you can't be Spider-Man, but you can be member #478 of his best friends club and follow him around all day), and scaling it for that many players at once was causing the Live team headaches."

Rule #1 of video games: The player is the star. Judging from that snippet (secondhand and skimpy, I know), it sounds like Marvel wants to  deviate from that central tenet. Instead of designing the game around the player, it seems like Marvel was forcing Cryptic to design the game around the IP. Follow Spider-man around in an MMO? Kee-rist.

This isn't about combat mechanics, or DIKU levels, or loot - that can all be hashed out. My guess is this is about Marvel Mary-Sueing their characters in the game and Stan Lee wanting them to be front and center, not the players, and both Cryptic and Microsoft know that such a project would be an epic fail.

[shiznitz]

If that's what Marvel wanted, then they should have just married the Marvel license to CoX in some way and add the MU characters officially into that game as NPCs.

[Montague]

If that's what Marvel wanted, then they should have just married the Marvel license to CoX in some way and add the MU characters officially into that game as NPCs.

No, my point is that I don't think Marvel/Stan Lee want the IP characters as just "NPC's" in the traditional MMO sense.

Unlike LOTRO, where you can meet up with Frodo, Pippin, Merry etc but they're only a small part of the story from the player's perspective, I think Marvel wants their heroes contingent to BE the story.

I.E. you spend your time running around helping the heroes out and you may even get to save their bacon once in a while, but the focus of the game remains on the Marvel characters. Wonder-twin powers, activate.

I can see Cryptic saying something along the lines of "Ok, we're going to have Spider-man being a quest-giver here and..." and Stan Lee frothing at the mouth that Spidey doesn't delegate assignments or give out quests. Might be true from an IP standpoint but it would make for a terrible MMO.

[Aez]

If that's what Marvel wanted, then they should have just married the Marvel license to CoX in some way and add the MU characters officially into that game as NPCs.

No, my point is that I don't think Marvel/Stan Lee want the IP characters as just "NPC's" in the traditional MMO sense.

Unlike LOTRO, where you can meet up with Frodo, Pippin, Merry etc but they're only a small part of the story from the player's perspective, I think Marvel wants their heroes contingent to BE the story.

I.E. you spend your time running around helping the heroes out and you may even get to save their bacon once in a while, but the focus of the game remains on the Marvel characters. Wonder-twin powers, activate.

I can see Cryptic saying something along the lines of "Ok, we're going to have Spider-man being a quest-giver here and..." and Stan Lee frothing at the mouth that Spidey doesn't delegate assignments or give out quests. Might be true from an IP standpoint but it would make for a terrible MMO.

Might as well turn the major heroes into class.  "Full group LF lvl 30-34 Hulk to tank Magneto in danger room!!!"