Warrior Tanks in 2.3

[edlavallee]

From reading the patch notes, I am wondering if some of the recent changes mean there will be more viability for non-protection specced warriors to serve as tanks. Surely, full protection specs will fare better, have better damage mitigation and perhaps some better aggro generation, but the following changes lead me to consider that other warrior specs may have an easier time serving as a main tank while also retaining some ability to dish out some DPS making soloing, questing and life in general more enjoyable and easy.

-  Devastate (Protection) now combines the effects of Sunder Armor into
   its effect. It is also now affected by all talents and items that
   affect Sunder Armor.

-  Tactical Mastery: This talent also now grants greatly increased
   threat from Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst when in Defensive Stance.

-  All items have had their bonuses to Weapon Skill Rating converted to
   a new stat called Weapon Expertise Rating.  Each point of Weapon
   Expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried
   by .25%.

Does this lend some creedance to Arms and Fury trees for some tankability? Does this perhaps make hybrid specs more viable?

Thoughts?


<am at work so I can't play with a talent calculator to see if any of this makes a difference with the talent tree swapping they have done... any ideas on a free respec?>

[Zetor]

From what I've read, TM makes MS/BT damage do 21% extra threat per talent point in d-stance, scaling with damage (a 100 damage MS would do 163 threat before defensive stance / defiance multipliers), which is pretty hot.

I'm probably going to spec 35/5/21 on my warrior, it looks like a very solid all-around build (no sweeping strikes, piercing howl or enrage, but eh) for tanking 5-mans, DPSing, PVPing, and even possibly offtanking raids. Something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0fdNbqM0dbZVZfVtoh0z (possibly switch points from toughness to imp revenge or maybe even imp disarm and imp taunt... that's a preference thing really).


-- Z.

[Paelos]

I think yes, hybrid warrior builds will find some new utility with the advent of these changes. I think it will be important for those warriors in raids who are OTs and rarely MTs on bosses. These warriors often need to be doing dps rather than tanking, but they need some tanking skills when they line up against adds or trash. Also, people that enjoy running five and ten mans once or twice a week could also solo/pvp regularly in such a build without problems.

[Righ]

I'm probably going to spec 35/5/21 on my warrior, it looks like a very solid all-around build (no sweeping strikes, piercing howl or enrage, but eh) for tanking 5-mans, DPSing, PVPing, and even possibly offtanking raids. Something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0fdNbqM0dbZVZfVtoh0z (possibly switch points from toughness to imp revenge or maybe even imp disarm and imp taunt... that's a preference thing really).

Orc kill!
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0fdAioM0dioVZfV0oh
42/5/14

[Ironwood]

What's Devastate got to do with it ??

[Merusk]

The lack of a shield means if you're looking to pull aggro with MS, you'd better have some pretty serious dodge/ Parry going along with a healer whose got a hell of a mana pool or can time shit perfectly.  Otherwise you're going to be killing your group just as fast as you ever would before.

[Righ]

MS works fine with a shield. What did you have in mind - surely not 2H in def stance?

[Merusk]

MS works fine with a shield. What did you have in mind - surely not 2H in def stance?

I've seen it tried, so yeah, I did.  Silly me for going the LCD route instead of expecting brainpower.. I've come to expect the worst in-game.

[ShenMolo]

MS works fine with a shield. What did you have in mind - surely not 2H in def stance?

I routinely tank normal 5 man instances with a 2H in defensive stance, wearing tanking gear, specced 31/30.

Once you get some decent tanking gear (Kara equivalent) building rage in normal 5 man runs is more of a problem than mitigating damage. These are almost always guild runs where someone needs rep, or a Kara key fragment or something. The healer is usually pretty well geared. I wouldn't do it in a PuG, if only to avoid the "LOL heY NUb put On ur ShIELD!!" I'll also throw on a shield for the bosses, or if I need to interupt casters. Otherwise tanking with a 2 hander is fun.

[Zetor]

The lack of a shield means if you're looking to pull aggro with MS, you'd better have some pretty serious dodge/ Parry going along with a healer whose got a hell of a mana pool or can time shit perfectly.  Otherwise you're going to be killing your group just as fast as you ever would before.

Well, I was thinking of using my season 2 arena 1-hander [2.6 speed] and a shield when tanking... with impale and some dps gear on, I can crit MS for over 1k in defensive stance, that's a pretty nice chunk of threat. It should be even better for fury/prot builds, since BT doesn't need a 2-hander to hit hard.

I don't 2-hand tank any of the lv70 instances (sethekk was the highest level instance I did that in), but I do use dps gear, unless it's a heroic. Even in a heroic, I can use the arena 1h instead of a tanking 1h for trash mobs.


-- Z.

[Ironwood]

Post your Tank Builds Here Please. 

I'm having trouble figuring out where that last point should go.  I hate messy builds.

[Nebu]

THIS is what I was planning on for my protection tank (11/45/5) build.  Feel free to rip it apart.

[caladein]

MS works fine with a shield. What did you have in mind - surely not 2H in def stance?

I've seen it tried, so yeah, I did.  Silly me for going the LCD route instead of expecting brainpower.. I've come to expect the worst in-game.

We do that all the time in normal Black Morass :P.

One thing to consider is that a number of PvP Warriors are losing Tactical Mastery and going something along the lines of 41/20/0. So, might not see any real increase in what your random PuG tank is doing.

[Fabricated]

This is what I use. I haven't respecced for uh, forever though.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0jzZZfVtoIMdbest

[Ironwood]

THIS is what I was planning on for my protection tank (11/45/5) build.  Feel free to rip it apart.

No Improved Sunder ??

[ClydeJr]

Personally I think Imp Shield Wall is a waste of talents. You get an extra 5 seconds on a 30 minute ability? You should be putting those points in something you use all the time. Nebu, not having Imp Sunder is criminal. You use Sunder or Devastate all the time when tanking. Those extra rage points you save can be used for other things. Fabricated, you really need Shield Mastery. Your shield is a massive part of your armor. Its need to be as boosted as much as possible I think.

I know mines not perfect but here's what I run with: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0cZqZfEtoIMzc0st

[Jayce]

I would take improved shield bash over improved shield wall any day.  Silence the target, both for questing/grinding and for trash is invaluable, especially for those mobs that cast both shadow and fire, etc.

[Nebu]

Thanks for the input.  I made that build with one thing in mind: what skills would be best for instances and instance bosses? 

I can probably dump shield wall, but thought it might be helpful in preventing a wipe on a tough boss.  I don't really care about talents much for questing and trash pve as it's so mindless, that you really don't need half your talents for it anyway.  This is why I ommitted things with a silence/stun component as most bosses will be immune.  For what it's worth, my warrior is only level 30 or so.  I'm sure I'll figure out what works best for my playstyle in the next 30 levels. 

[Jayce]

Maybe you just have more of a mind than I do, but I don't find questing and solo PvE that mindless.  Since that's most of what I do, if I did I'd find another game.

Also, someone in my guild once gave a challenge to go do your ordinary questing, etc without talents and the difference is huge.  It basically can't be done after a certain level.  Talents, equally with base abilities, really define a character in this game.

[Nebu]

Maybe you just have more of a mind than I do, but I don't find questing and solo PvE that mindless.  Since that's most of what I do, if I did I'd find another game.

Also, someone in my guild once gave a challenge to go do your ordinary questing, etc without talents and the difference is huge.  It basically can't be done after a certain level.  Talents, equally with base abilities, really define a character in this game.

Very true. I guess that I'm just referring to some of the specialty talents that you must pick up in order to get to the top of the protection tree.  There are certainly a few that you oculd level just fine without, but they certainly can make those odd situations much easier to deal with.  As for the "mindless" comment, you're right.  I guess I'm just feeling the "I've done this quest 4 times already" syndrome.  That and I'm a pvp person at heart.  Compared to the pace of PvP combat, PvE always seems to be slower and a bit less intense. 

[Jayce]

That and I'm a pvp person at heart.  Compared to the pace of PvP combat, PvE always seems to be slower and a bit less intense. 

That is definitely true.  I guess it's one reason I like this game so much - I like the pace of PvE combat more.  Unfortunately for others the "good" PvP content comes at the end.  That, or you can level on a PvP server and take being the gankee with the times you get to have a good fight with someone of your level.

[Paelos]

This may be a purely POV item, but I'm noticing that I have fewer problems staying ahead of my dps now in the threat department, and that I seem to be putting out much more threat than I used to in a similar time period. I could credit this to my very much increased use of devestate that seems to be making this noticeable difference.

Anybody else of that same mindset, or is it simply the feeling of awesome power that makes it look like more threat from new devestate?

[Ironwood]

Well, yes.  That makes sense.  Sunder never gave Damage and Damage also adds to the threat.

So, the Devastate will own both...

[Nebu]

THIS look any better?

[Ironwood]

It's a perfectly acceptable build.

For me, Last Stand and Imp Revenge are staples.  I tend to remove 1-handed spec and Vitality for them.

Yes, I'm aware that most tanks swear by 1-hand spec, but I think (particularly now) Devastate makes up for it.

As to Vitality, 5% doesn't bother me that much.

[Fabricated]

This may be a purely POV item, but I'm noticing that I have fewer problems staying ahead of my dps now in the threat department, and that I seem to be putting out much more threat than I used to in a similar time period. I could credit this to my very much increased use of devestate that seems to be making this noticeable difference.

Anybody else of that same mindset, or is it simply the feeling of awesome power that makes it look like more threat from new devestate?

IIRC my TPS before the patch right I'm putting out about a 100 more per second or more. I wanna say that. I got to tank another heroic last night with one of the same Tier 6'd/Hyjal'd out the ass elemental shammys I made an ass of myself with in Heroic Mech. He'd still pull aggro on bosses and mobs, but I could actually re-establish it, and it took a LOT longer for him to outpace me.

[Zetor]

I specced full prot on a whim yesterday, just to see how the new devastate works... and it's pretty awesome, especially with a slow high-damage weapon. Even though my warrior's tanking gear is severely lacking (it's a pvp character really) and I play with a 500-600 ping, I was holding aggro pretty well in h-mech. In retrospect, I messed up a few talent points (so many points in arms without anger management, maxing out ironwill when it's a marginal effect at best, etc), but eh. The new 100% dispel on shieldslam is also pretty hot against mobs that use buffs like fire shield, hasten, etc.
My armory for gear and spec: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Crushridge&n=Contraption
(I do have a King's Defender and a more tank-y trinket, but I like to keep a balance of threat and defense for now)

Edit: I just realized that since 90% of the time I'm specced for pvp, my armory probably won't be a good source of info :P but this would be my spec, and my gear was a mixture of tanking and pvp gear; not at 490def, but using resilience from pvp gear to make me uncrittable anyway. Of course this only works in 5-mans, and not-particularly-hard heroics [I always have a full set of 'real' tank gear in my bags].


-- Z.

[edlavallee]

Question: Can an MS built warrior tank a heroic instance in average gear better now than prior to the patch?

[ClydeJr]

Question: Can an MS built warrior tank a heroic instance in average gear better now than prior to the patch?

Possibly if you have decent enough crowd control and healing. If you only have to worry about 1 mob, that should be fine. It's when you have 2-3 mobs that hit for 1k+ each beating on you at the same time that you run into problems.