Dwarf Fortress

[Nija]

Re: toady is a crazy fuck:

Stopped cats from dying of alcohol poisoning after walking over damp tavern floors and cleaning themselves (reduced effect)

That's a result of every creature having a cubic measurement for how much blood they contain, all the different liquors having differing potency, and being able to determine a blood alcohol level. Completely unintentional, but cats would walk through spilled booze, lick their feet to clean them, and skyrocket their BAC and die.

[Selby]

Toady really is a crazy fuck.  It's eventually going to take a supercomputer to run this ascii game.

Seriously.  I loved the concept but it was difficult as hell to get started and the few times I managed to do something remotely interesting seemed to be more luck rather than figuring out exactly a way to not suck.

[Ironwood]

Jesus Wept.

[Ruvaldt]

The problem I had with the last release was that you essentially had to get lucky in order to ever encounter any goblins or invaders.  It wasn't a guarantee that they would eventually show up like in previous versions so I just chose to play the older releases since it was all very dull.  I'm not sure if that's been changed.  I love Dwarf Fortress, but Toady seems to consistently choose simulation at the expense of fun and I think that in a lot of ways the releases prior to the introduction of the z-axis were actually the most fun.

[Yegolev]

For varying values of fun.

[Pagz]

They fixed the goblin invading stuff this release (and they're back riding beak dogs).

One you get started the Fun never stops!

[Teleku]

The problem I had with the last release was that you essentially had to get lucky in order to ever encounter any goblins or invaders.  It wasn't a guarantee that they would eventually show up like in previous versions so I just chose to play the older releases since it was all very dull.  I'm not sure if that's been changed.  I love Dwarf Fortress, but Toady seems to consistently choose simulation at the expense of fun and I think that in a lot of ways the releases prior to the introduction of the z-axis were actually the most fun.

Totally agree.  Last few times I fired up Dwarf Fortress, it was with the last version before Z-axis introduction.

I mean, what it's become since is fascinating and fun, but the game changed from sandbox game to a sandbox simulation.  For all the cool things there are about building your own personalized fort and everything....it not hard, and it's more along the lines of building shit to play with like mine craft (again, nothing wrong with that).  In the end, I enjoyed the structured flow of the original dwarf fortress.  Carve out an initial cave and try not to starve through the first winter.  Find the river and create and underground flood/farm system, while not dying to floods or river monsters.  Move further on to find better ore, and the chasm, and the fight the monsters it brings.  Move further in for the best ore and the magma river, giving you access to high end smelting, traps, and even worst monsters to fight off.  Move beyond that to find adamantium while risking cracking the pits and unleashing hell on your fortress.

With Z-axis, I can pretty much start mining platinum and high end shit from minute one.  The game is only really a challenge if you are actively trying to fuck with yourself.  I prefer games that try to fuck with me, and I respond to it.  I've really drifted away from the game more and more because of that.

But again, that's not to say what it is now is bad.  This game is literally what would happen if a programmer was "struck by a strange mood", gathered materials, ran to his workstation, and didn't stop coding for a decade.  C++ code of the highest quality, encrusted with Limonite and cat bone, decorated with cave lobster shell and alpaca leather, and menaced with spikes of pure cocaine.

It's amazing to behold and play.  Because Toady is a crazy fuck.

[Yegolev]

Yeah, well, I find the game super hard and I've only played the z-axis version.

[Rendakor]

The few times I've attempted have been post-z-axis, and it's always felt like I was fighting the UI more than anything else.

[Lantyssa]

Okay, what the hell is this z-axis change y'all are talking about?  Hasn't there always been a z-axis?

[MahrinSkel]

Very early versions had only one level, part of which was on the surface. You went 'deeper' by tunneling further into the direction away from the surface.

--Dave

[Ruvaldt]

The z-axis was introduced in 2008 or so.  Before that elephants were the engines of Satan, the game had a beginning, middle and end (if you chose to follow it...you didn't have to) and people routinely flooded the world with both water and magma by poor floodgate usage...and awesome floodgate usage.  It was a simpler world.

[Teleku]

It feels a little funny to describe it as a "very early version", since I played that version for years before he introduced the Z-axis.  :p

But I guess with how long the game has been in development, it counts as 'early' now.  Still enjoyed that simpler world better.  Would be awesome to see a version of the game where a lot of the shit he's developed since was added in to the 2D version.

[Threash]

River, chasm, fun stuff.  I did like that version better now that i think about it.

[Thrawn]

The z-axis was introduced in 2008 or so.  Before that elephants were the engines of Satan, the game had a beginning, middle and end (if you chose to follow it...you didn't have to) and people routinely flooded the world with both water and magma by poor floodgate usage...and awesome floodgate usage.  It was a simpler world.

No way, I'm not that old, I can't have been playing Dwarf Fortress off and on for more than 7 years. 

[Sir T]

The classic Boatmurdered happened in the time before the Z axis. I have to admit when I heard about the Z axis I lost interest in playing it. It was just adding complexity for no purpose imo, along with vastly increasing the amount of "safe" real estate for you to play with. And now that you can chose where on the world you want to dig rather than "By order of the king you are chartered this mountain on the Border of the Lands of Nergash the insane and the Beardshaver Elves!! Enjoy!" it made things rather easy again.

As people say the worst thing to happen to DF is the guy who made it. People wanded to make crasy doomed fortresses rather than indulging in a world simulation as far as I could see.

[Pagz]

I'm confused why everyone is getting nostalgia goggles over the 2D DF. The beginning, middle and end, the game fucking with you, the better materials and harder monsters the deeper you go, the inevitably doomed fortress, it's all still in there. I think I really do now need to fire up a new radicalthon just to show people.

[Teleku]

...how?  I just dig down into the ground, make a perfect compact fortress with well placed stairways so no dwarf has to travel far at all to get to anything important, and I guess see if I can withstand what ever invades from outside (which isn't hard).  Maybe get really lucky if I have one neat feature like a magma river or chasm.  You almost never get all 3, let alone even one.  And even then, you can have your dwarves dig straight to the bottom level of the mountain the second you load the game.  Getting from the front of the mountain to the back in the original is a bit of an adventure.  There is very little sense of exploration.

You have to start yourself on a haunted glacier to get a challenge.  And it certainly can be hilarious, but hard to also generate a plot of land with anything interesting to explore under the ground.

[Paelos]

I'm confused why everyone is getting nostalgia goggles over the 2D DF. The beginning, middle and end, the game fucking with you, the better materials and harder monsters the deeper you go, the inevitably doomed fortress, it's all still in there. I think I really do now need to fire up a new radicalthon just to show people.

DO IT! 

[Mandella]

I'm confused why everyone is getting nostalgia goggles over the 2D DF. The beginning, middle and end, the game fucking with you, the better materials and harder monsters the deeper you go, the inevitably doomed fortress, it's all still in there. I think I really do now need to fire up a new radicalthon just to show people.

I'm with you on this one.

I had no idea there was a z-axis hate group until now!

[Rasix]

I only learned on the z-axis version.  

If you want it to be hard, just make it hard. It's really easy to just set up in an evil area and watch all of your hard work go up in smoke when one of guys making a wall gets bitten by a zombie gerbil.  I'm not sure if goblins invade more (last version I played on, they really didn't), but even when they did, it wasn't difficult to make yourself basically unconquerable if you're not set up for some baked in difficulty.

I'm sure most of instinctively set up in a warm wooded area with a river, low chaos/evil, abundant ore, and no aquifer.  Once you've got beyond the interface and the organizational aspects that sort of set up isn't going to breed trouble.  Well, until your engineered underwater lake and canal system floods the entire fortress because you didn't quit think about putting a floodgate up before you dug that hole with the pumps still going full bore. 

[Yegolev]

Yeah, I can't make shit work in paradise so fuck you guys.

[ezrast]

I make it "hard" by refusing to ever put a real military together (the UI for that is past my breaking point) or do any metallurgy (I always have more important stuff to do than figure out that production pipeline). I defend my fortresses with elaborate series of traps, then lose when I fail to arm them in time because my dumbass dwarves won't get inside and like fuck am I going to let my Master Engraver die now, get in you imbecile, okay now pull the lever pull it pull it faster oh no two goblins came in with him and they're going to cut down 30 of my fat, soft dwarves before being punched into unconsciousness, which will invariably include anyone with any medical training, and then the tantrum spiral ensues...

[Rendakor]

Yeah, I can't make shit work in paradise so fuck you guys.

+1

I've never managed to have my shit together by the first winter and/or first enemy attack.

[Pagz]

...how?  I just dig down into the ground, make a perfect compact fortress with well placed stairways so no dwarf has to travel far at all to get to anything important, and I guess see if I can withstand what ever invades from outside (which isn't hard).  Maybe get really lucky if I have one neat feature like a magma river or chasm.  You almost never get all 3, let alone even one.  And even then, you can have your dwarves dig straight to the bottom level of the mountain the second you load the game.  Getting from the front of the mountain to the back in the original is a bit of an adventure.  There is very little sense of exploration.

You have to start yourself on a haunted glacier to get a challenge.  And it certainly can be hilarious, but hard to also generate a plot of land with anything interesting to explore under the ground.

Well just like any game, you set the difficulty to how you want it. If you want an easy game embark in a nice area, if you want a harder game embark in a hard area. The underground always has cavern layers (I think two by default), if you dig to the magma from game start they're going to cause you trouble (especially if you breach a forgotten beast, animal-people camp or the magma sea has magma crabs spitting lava at my dwarves like the last radicalthon causing Samwise to dodge into the magma -.-'). If you want more chance to embark in a really full location, you can up the percentages in the world gen screen.

I'm waiting for the next patch to drop before I start a new game, hopefully it'll be very soon <3. Haunted Glacier, hmmmmmmmmmm!

[Teleku]

Did they change it so that the caverns and magma were always in now?  Very often I'd start fortresses and never find any sort of magma or underground river (I haven't really played in a few years).  Or at least couldn't find a decent plot to start on that the map told me contained any.  Anyways, in the original you could also choose to start on the side of a mountain located in a haunted tundra.  Nothing changed there.  It's about what happens after you dig into the mountain that changed for easier (and less interesting, imo).

But again, it's not just the hardness thing.  It's that I liked the flow of the game.  You had to work towards getting further and further into the mountain, to uncover stuff.  There was a beginning, middle, and end.  The current way is too free form for my taste, and doesn't feel like a game anymore.  I was presented with a challenge to conquer, and I worked on doing it.  It took years and years of work before I got a tunnel to the back end of the map.  There is no goal to work towards now, just dick around until you eventually die or get board.  The bottom level isn't really different from any other level.  I understand it's totally a personal preference, not bagging on you guys for liking the Z-axis more.  It's just an aspect of the game I miss.

Z-axis did make fortress management waaaaaay easier though.  Travel times, base layout on limited space, access to resources, all mattered before.  Now you can just stack everything on top of each other, and the base runs super efficiently.

[Yegolev]

It might be easier if you could make fucking stairs that fucking dwarves would fucking use.  Maybe that is just me.  The guy who isn't in love with crab meat.