Lack of tanks

[Merusk]

Mages only have to hold-back initially.  Their invis is a complete aggro dump now.  The classes that get screwed are; Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Ret Pallies, Fury/ Arms Warriors and Ele Shaman.

 While some of them have aggro-reducing talents, they still have the potential to do more DPS threat than a Tank can ever generate (There's a thoretical 'threat per second cap' because of the way Tank Abilities work.)  Yes, those trinkets might help, but - as Jayce points out - they also gimp your DPS.  DPS is pretty important endgame, becuse lots of bosses have an 'enrage' timer.  If you don't do x amount of DPS then you're never going to beat the timer, and the raid dies.

All of this also gets fucked if anyone ever pulls aggro.  The tank might or might-not have Taunt up, but he's not going to be quick enough to ever slam it at the exact instant someone else pulls aggro.  As the mob wanders over to pummel the new target, the tank is falling farther behind because the rest of the raid also won't realize for a second or two that aggro was lost.  They can DPS without the boss focused on him, the tank needs that focus to build rage and threat both. So as he's blowing all his rage trying to get aggro back, the mob pwns inattentive_DPS_idiot 1, 2, 3 and 4 as well as any shadow priests or locks who had big damage dots up and were hovering too high. 

Whoops.

[ShenMolo]

I think I am an ok tank. Not great, but I am not an idiot either. I do my research and learn fast. I do think I am severly under geared at the moment (the consequence of leveling solo as arms), and would like some of your opinions both on gear to aim for as well as other tips such as helpful add-ons and macros. I would aim for questable +defense and regular instance gear since I need to work on faction and have not completed the Karazhan key quest.

The answers to all your pre-raiding Warrior gear questions:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/gear-lists-rankings/

Look in the stickies.

In general, get to 490 defense, then start stacking stamina. A tank starting Kara should aim for 490 defense, 12k+ Health, 12k+ Armor

Tankspot has more in depth info on avoidance, block, etc. The stats above are a general answer to the question "When am I ready for Kara".

[Simond]

I second this, I ran a Tauren Warrior at level 6 over to Silvermoon and did all the quests there. I just bound myself to the Inn in UC and trained there every 2 levels. It was nice to do something a little different in the 10-20 range, plus the blue 2h quest reward at the end is 

Yeah, I've even run a shaman alt over there for levelling (and that means running back to Org via zep for training!), just because the area is that much more well designed, the quests flow better, and the quest rewards are night & day compared to 'old world' quests. I mean, they even give you a bunch of bags as quest rewards right from the get-go, which makes an incredible difference if you're starting from scratch (on a new server or whatever).

I'd imagine that it's slightly more annoying Alliance-side though, as the delusional-Eredar newbie zone links back to the armpit city of Azeroth that is Darnassus.

[Ralence]

The issue with prot pally leveling is while your awesome with a pack of melee mobs on you, you really, really, really, suck at fighting casters or single mobs. Not in the sense that your in any kind of danger of dieing, just in that it is slow, boring, and slow.

If you put 10 into holy for the healing pushback talent, you can solo just about every quest in outlands that isn't a 5 person one. You can put those points into ret once you hit 70 for the parry talent, since by 70, once you start getting 'real' tanking gear, you'll almost never have to heal yourself, your heals will be incapable of effecting your health pool and your mana pool will be around 4-6k only, with no mana5.

  I can completely agree with the caster/single mob problems, it's really difficult to build threat if they don't hit me, and I always try to drag a melee mob with me, or target casters first in instances just for that factor.  Up until 34, I just whipped out a 2h and wacked at them, the BE interrupt/silence helped.

  I'm glad to know that it gets better, I'm really enjoying this char, and if i get terribly bored with PvE, there's always the option to spec holy for arenas, which is another appealing factor for me, esp coming from a healer/priest in every game background.

  As far as the levelling to 34, a lot of people spec ret until they get 5 in reckoning apparently, me personally, I just levelled as prot, being able to heal made the downtime not so terrible.  Once I hit 34? around then, I could start with multi-mob pulls, and the efficiency was there.  Up until then I could do it, but I usually had to heal/pot/panic button at some point.

 

[caladein]

One other question on the whole "DPS needs to hold back" theme... There are threat reduction talents and trinkets, why aren't these emphasized more? Why is the method to hold back rather than rely on these trinkets and skills to give you the threat buffer to allow your tank to maintain aggro? I must be missing some key mechanic here, so pardon my ignorance.

Most of them are simply not so good, and you can always just "stop" hitting it (unless you're an Affliction Warlock or Shadow Priest, and then you have to be a bit more careful and have other concerns in the first place). Blessing of Salvation on the other hand is a big step up in potential DPS versus Blessing of Might as an example, and that is frequently used in group settings by competent players.

[Salamok]

I think I am an ok tank. Not great, but I am not an idiot either. I do my research and learn fast. I do think I am severly under geared at the moment (the consequence of leveling solo as arms), and would like some of your opinions both on gear to aim for as well as other tips such as helpful add-ons and macros. I would aim for questable +defense and regular instance gear since I need to work on faction and have not completed the Karazhan key quest.

The answers to all your pre-raiding Warrior gear questions:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/gear-lists-rankings/

Look in the stickies.

In general, get to 490 defense, then start stacking stamina. A tank starting Kara should aim for 490 defense, 12k+ Health, 12k+ Armor

Tankspot has more in depth info on avoidance, block, etc. The stats above are a general answer to the question "When am I ready for Kara".

problem is this will leave you with 700 ap, producing no threat and hitting like a weenie.  Unfortunately you just need to suffer through that period in order to get your AP back up with heroic and kara gear.

mod wise get klh threatmeter, a bartender type bar mod to organize the 30 or so buttons you need to mash and as always an atlas mod to know where you are going.

[Nebu]

So I've been leveling this warrior for a few days now and I've come to one conclusion... the class is SO BORING compared to my rogue.  Does this ever change?  It may have something to do with the lack of tanks.  The class just isn't all that interesting. Please tell me it gets better as you get higher.

[Ironwood]

No.

[Salamok]

So I've been leveling this warrior for a few days now and I've come to one conclusion... the class is SO BORING compared to my rogue.  Does this ever change?  It may have something to do with the lack of tanks.  The class just isn't all that interesting. Please tell me it gets better as you get higher.

once you start tanking outlands it goes from boring to painful. 

[Dren]

So I've been leveling this warrior for a few days now and I've come to one conclusion... the class is SO BORING compared to my rogue.  Does this ever change?  It may have something to do with the lack of tanks.  The class just isn't all that interesting. Please tell me it gets better as you get higher.

I want to have a 70 Tank Warrior in my arsenal of alts really badly, but THIS is exactly why it has not happened.  I can't seem to get past lvl 14 before I lose interest.  EVERY other class is much more interesting, including Paladin.  I know.  I've done them.

[Nebu]

My rogue is a joy.  Lots of tools.  Every fight can be different.  My warrior... meh.  I will probably shelve it until my rogue hits 70 and solos everything that it can.  Then I'll level the warrior and try a few group-related things.  I chickened out and made a human warrior by the way.  The class is so gear dependent that I wanted to use my rogue to get it gear and potions for the long road to 70.  I'd like to play the hoard side to 70, but I'm thinking it may be on something other than a warrior.

[Ironwood]

Here's the Deal :  If you don't group often and well with friends, you'll never get a Warrior to 70 without hating a great percentage of it.

Sorry.

[Nebu]

Here's the Deal :  If you don't group often and well with friends, you'll never get a Warrior to 70 without hating a great percentage of it.

Sorry.

I have one friend that I play with that is leveling a druid.  If that can't get me through it, then I'll just play the rogue until I get bored.  It not terribly invested in the toon, I just wanted to try a few things.  Since I don't like pet classes and got bored with my mage, that left me a limited number of other options. 

[Jayce]

Are you 2h or dual wield?

It could just be personality, but my (second) warrior is 54 and rising and I am having a much better time this time around.  I know at least one other person who echoes my sentiments.  The difference for me is that I went arms the first time and fury/dual wield the second time.  I fight like a rogue but with more armor and less sneaky.

I am also a passable tank in most instances without being Prot.  Gear and defensive stance are the key.

[Venkman]

Here's the Deal :  If you don't group often and well with friends, you'll never get a Warrior to 70 without hating a great percentage of it.

Sorry.

Exactly. WoW killed the Holy Trinity by making it the Holy Duality. Healbots and tanks are the two least frequently found classes in the game. This is the one thing I hate about WoW. They had the opportunity to not make fundamentally/absolutelyl/don't-go-otherwise classes but let their encounter team create content that requires it anyway.

[edlavallee]

problem is this will leave you with 700 ap, producing no threat and hitting like a weenie.  Unfortunately you just need to suffer through that period in order to get your AP back up with heroic and kara gear.

mod wise get klh threatmeter, a bartender type bar mod to organize the 30 or so buttons you need to mash and as always an atlas mod to know where you are going.

With a focus on defense (through equipping the highest tank points), I can see how you would have a tendency to sacrifice attack power, however, isnt part of the tank points equation +hit or threat generated from damage? So, it should somehow balance out sometime, yes?

Also, "expertise" as referenced in the TankSpot thread should somewhat change the landscape a little I would imagine.... Any thoughts on that?

Here's the Deal :  If you don't group often and well with friends, you'll never get a Warrior to 70 without hating a great percentage of it.

Sorry.

I leveled my warrior largely solo from 40-70. There were painful spots, but most of those are pain I saw in all my characters (mid 40s to mid 50s quests and zones... Felwood - YUK), so I don't think it was warrior specific. It was repetitive to some extent, but then again, aren't all characters when you solo? My hunter was, my mage sure is and my warrior was no different. Charge, shouts, MS, rend, etc. Rinse repeat. My respite from the boredom was guild chat and random PC interactions.

So, Ironwood, I find myself respectfully disagreeing with you. I appreciate your opinions and don't doubt that it was painful for you... I just wish it hadn't been.

[Salamok]

With a focus on defense (through equipping the highest tank points), I can see how you would have a tendency to sacrifice attack power, however, isnt part of the tank points equation +hit or threat generated from damage? So, it should somehow balance out sometime, yes?

no, problem with tank points is it doesn't have a "what are you trying to accomplish variable" in my opinion it rates gear based upon the objective of tanking a raid boss.  In that scenario where you are able to focus on 1 target that is hitting you hard enough to keep your rage maxed then you don't need as much assistance from attack power.  Now if there were a drop down that covered gear selections tuned towards pvp, 5man, heroic 5man and solo play then this tool would be alot more useful. 

edit: lol I would even say tankpoints doesn't rate your gear optimally for the trash clearing trip to said raid boss.

[Nebu]

Are you 2h or dual wield?

It could just be personality, but my (second) warrior is 54 and rising and I am having a much better time this time around.  I know at least one other person who echoes my sentiments.  The difference for me is that I went arms the first time and fury/dual wield the second time.  I fight like a rogue but with more armor and less sneaky.

I am also a passable tank in most instances without being Prot.  Gear and defensive stance are the key.

That could be it.  I went 2h because I didn't want the toon to feel too much like my dual weild rogue (which is mace specialty and combat spec).  I may give a respec a try, but I think I'd like to go prot spec before going dw.  If I wanted to play dw, I'd probably just play my rogue.

[Salamok]

Are you 2h or dual wield?

It could just be personality, but my (second) warrior is 54 and rising and I am having a much better time this time around.  I know at least one other person who echoes my sentiments.  The difference for me is that I went arms the first time and fury/dual wield the second time.  I fight like a rogue but with more armor and less sneaky.

I am also a passable tank in most instances without being Prot.  Gear and defensive stance are the key.

That could be it.  I went 2h because I didn't want the toon to feel too much like my dual weild rogue (which is mace specialty and combat spec).  I may give a respec a try, but I think I'd like to go prot spec before going dw.  If I wanted to play dw, I'd probably just play my rogue.

I leveled as 2h fury from 40-60 and it was a blast.  Of course back then bloodthirst rocked but enrage+flurry+imp slam builds are still viable for solo grinding.

[Paelos]

I didn't solo shit from 60-70 as a warrior. I stayed protection and did nothing but instances, all day long, whenever I logged in. I only did quests related to instances and only solo-quested if I was on at an off-peak hour.

In this fashion, the warrior is totally painless to level. In fact, it hardly feels like leveling at all because you are going towards an end-goal in an instance. Only later do you look at the xp gain and think, hmmmm, only three more instances and I hit 64. Of course, this requires a crew that you work almost consistently with, and I recommend setting that up immediately as a warrior if you want to be successful.

[Montague]

I have a 67 warrior I'm levelling up pretty much solo.

The absolute number one rule of warrior levelling is to recognize how gear-dependent they are. Your weapon or weapons and gear must be as top-of-the line as possible for your level. First thing I did before he stepped in Outlands was to buy a Blade of Misfortune, then a Halaani Claymore in case no weapons dropped in instances. Lo and behold... I'll probably have to buy him a Crystalforged War Axe as well the way my luck is going.

Alchemists can be a warrior's best friend. My main is an alchemist and when my warrior was questing he always had Elixirs of Major Agility and Earthen Elixirs. The increased crit and damage reduction was pretty sweet. Also having abundant Super Healing pots is a big plus.

Once my warrior got to about 15% crit and > 900 attack power soloing became much less painful. Right now with an Agility pot he's around 25% crit and just under 1400 AP with food and Battle Shout. I'm killing stuff about as fast as my warlock did at 67.

[Jayce]

The absolute number one rule of warrior levelling is to recognize how gear-dependent they are.

^truth.

I said earlier in this thread that I'd never pick a warrior for a first character.  Do an EZ-mode hunter, warlock or mage and take two gathering professions.  Get rich, then level a warrior.

Regarding rogue vs dual wield warrior, I mostly want to tank, but I can't imagine pugging my way to glory, and I don't have a crew as Paelos suggests.  A fury warrior is a passable rogue who can also tank, so it works for me.  So I guess I'm saying that "if I wanted to dual wield I'd play my rogue" doesn't work for me - dual wielding is not the real issue, it's whether you want to DPS or tank.

[Nebu]

Regarding rogue vs dual wield warrior, I mostly want to tank, but I can't imagine pugging my way to glory, and I don't have a crew as Paelos suggests.  A fury warrior is a passable rogue who can also tank, so it works for me.  So I guess I'm saying that "if I wanted to dual wield I'd play my rogue" doesn't work for me - dual wielding is not the real issue, it's whether you want to DPS or tank.

I get what you're saying.  I was more commenting on having fun.  I'm never going to be in a raiding guild and I'm never going to have any gear better than I can get solo or from pvp.  Knowing that, I'm just playing the toons for the pure enjoyment of it.  I want the two classes to feel different enough that I don't immediately think "hey, this is similar to my ___". 

I'm probably not making much sense at this point.

[Jayce]

I get what you're saying.  I was more commenting on having fun.  I'm never going to be in a raiding guild and I'm never going to have any gear better than I can get solo or from pvp.  Knowing that, I'm just playing the toons for the pure enjoyment of it.  I want the two classes to feel different enough that I don't immediately think "hey, this is similar to my ___". 

I'm probably not making much sense at this point.

No, that makes perfect sense.  I'm looking from the perspective of someone who's been up and down the leveling treadmill a few times.  The interesting part for me is variations on the journey and what to do when I get to the destination.  The interesting part for you is the journey itself - to which I heartily agree that you should just enjoy it using whatever class you like best.

From that perspective, yes, a rogue and a dual wielding warrior are pretty close to the same, but a rogue has more solo-friendly tricks and PvP usability, so the rogue probably wins.

edit: oh, and I wanted to reiterate - some people like playing 2h warriors, but I can't take it.  I fall asleep between swings.  And fuggedabowdit if you miss.  At least pallys have something to do between swings, like consecrate or heal or something.  So I agree with you there too.

Crap, too much love and flowers and agreement for this community.  I hate you anyway.  There, is that better?

[Nebu]

Crap, too much love and flowers and agreement for this community.  I hate you anyway.  There, is that better?

I'm the Leo Buscaglia of this community.  It's ok. 

<Thanks for the info.  It was a good sanity check.>

[Chimpy]

With whatever melee class (and to some extent caster class if you are good at anticipating latency and missing spell cancellations) this is the one key I have found:

Hopping increases DPS and fun factor.

:)

[Nebu]

Hopping increases DPS and fun factor.

:)

Say what you will, but one of the biggest downfalls of GW for me was the lack of jump.  I don't know why, but there's something about spamming the space bar with a cartoonish character that gives me great joy.

[Abelian75]

Say what you will, but one of the biggest downfalls of GW for me was the lack of jump.  I don't know why, but there's something about spamming the space bar with a cartoonish character that gives me great joy.

It's definitely not just you.

[Merusk]

It's even better when there's a cool random jump effect.. like Dwarf barrel rolls in EQ or Night Elf flips in WoW. 

[Ironwood]

Finally went into Kara last week and downed the first two bosses (horse chap and butler) real easy.

This tanking thing is a lark.

[ShenMolo]

Leveling a warrior, or any class for that matter, will get a lot faster after next Tuesday with the release of 2.3.

I suspect there will be a lot more people leveling up alts. I have a shaman, druid, and rogue waiting at level 20 myself. It should make it easier to get instance groups if you want to try your hand at tanking. Instance xp, and at higher levels, rewards, are being revamped.

[Simond]

I have a BE rogue, hunter & priest, and an orc shaman on a new(-to-me) server, all sat at 20-22 with Braxis' Levelling Guide set up in Cartographer.

I also have three four* alts on my main server stuck in the 40-50 rut.


*Forgot my L39 warlock with the  D&D cartoon name.

[ajax34i]

That might not result in more tanks, though.

25 or 10 man raids require a lot more attention and focus from everyone; the healers have to be on top of the game continuously, the DPS'ers must meet minimum output with all the enrage timers, the tanks must generate a lot more aggro and dance through the certain encounters where aggro gets wiped, etc etc.  I remember the old lazy days of the 40-man MC raid; you guys can say whatever you want about the current end-game and the lack of progression past Kara for most guilds, but the end-game mentality and focus is required at the first tier now (Tier 4) rather than the last.

And so for the casual, there's a lot more effort required for what the "entry level raiding" is, compared to before.

You're playing a warrior for solo play; the focus of the class is groups, so, it won't ever come close to how well a solo-oriented class performs at solo play.  Bottom line.

[Fabricated]

In terms of difficulty I'd certainly say that Kara requires a lot more than ZG and even AQ20 did for the most part. ZG you could sleepwalk through if you wanted even as a tank. Jin'do was the only remotely complicated fight in the place and he was mostly tough when I got to do him because everyone was in half blues and AQ20/ZG gear. AQ20 was noticeably harder than ZG but just like ZG I think half our difficulty with it was the utterly piss poor itemization of old world WoW. Garbage tanking gear (the best blue tanking chestpiece was a fucking quest reward), maybe 3-4 good pieces of gear total per spec for each class, warrior blues with spirit, gigantic weapon DPS differences between entry level epics and blues, etc.

In BC you can walk into Kara with a raid in full, properly itemized blues (some that rival good epics) and wipe all night if people don't have a clue how to play their class.

[Chimpy]

In BC you can walk into Kara with a raid in full, properly itemized blues (some that rival good epics) and wipe all night if people don't have a clue how to play their class.

The big problem is, a good 2/3 or more of the people I have grouped with in WoW, especially in my time on Alliance, have little to no clue about their class or other classes. And a lot of them end up in groups and guilds because they were one of the loot sponges that were brought along to fill 40 man rosters back in the pre-expansion days.

This "donk factor" as I like to call it, is why at least half the people in the guild I am in are on my "not going to go into any 5 man, heroic or non with this dumbass" list. And this guild has cleared all of BT and Hyjal.