Lack of tanks

[Paelos]

You want to bitch about healers, Pae, go roll one.  Really.  It sucks, it's not fun, and there's about as much pressure as tanking. YOU'RE the one getting yelled at by the DPS when they're morons and pull aggro, or when the tank who's just .01% under-geared takes that one-in-a-thousand hit, gets wtfpwnd and the raid wipes.

I actually like healing but yeah, it sucks almost as bad as tanking.  Not to mention people yell at you more than any other class in my experience.  Definitely not any more fun with a sucky raid healer leader who decides to go into bear form and start doing DPS and then yells at you for not healing fast enough...  I've never actually had an experience with people yelling at the tank, it has always been people yelling at the healers for not keeping the life bars filled fast enough.

You're raiding with douchebags then. I love any and all healers I can get and I treat them well as a raid leader. If I die as the MT I don't instantly turn to the healers and bitch. I look at my combat log, check my stats, see what kind of crushing hits I took in a row (if any) and then move on. If I think there was an error, I send a tell asking a question. Also, if ANY dps start complaining about healing on any of my runs, they can ride the pine for the while. STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

Would I ever roll a healer up to 70? Hell no. That's not saying much though because I'd never roll another character up to 70 again, period. I have one character, with one job. I'm a tank. That's what I enjoy doing even when it's hard to do. That's why I enjoy talking about it on the forums. No, I don't like other classes attempting to do the job at the low or high end. That's not going to solve the problem. Simply make the harder jobs like tanking and healing more fun/easier, and you'll draw in more players. Blizzard is trying to solve problems with other problems. Run out of tanks? Oh we'll just make the healing classes viable tanks. WHAT? Why not worry about the fact that you've got tons of dps roaming around relying on these classes rather than cannibalizing their ranks.

This basically boils down to my hate of specializations. They suck. They aren't fun, and I've never had fun with them. The only people who enjoy fucking around with them are the DPS.

[caladein]

You're raiding with douchebags then. I love any and all healers I can get and I treat them well as a raid leader. If I die as the MT I don't instantly turn to the healers and bitch. I look at my combat log, check my stats, see what kind of crushing hits I took in a row (if any) and then move on. If I think there was an error, I send a tell asking a question. Also, if ANY dps start complaining about healing on any of my runs, they can ride the pine for the while. STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

Recount =

[Fabricated]

X-Perl has a nifty mod built in called Grim Reaper which shows a small graph and list of the last X-number of heals/damage you took when you mouse over anyone's unit frame. Extremely useful for figuring out how you or someone got whacked in a hurry.

[Paelos]

X-Perl has a nifty mod built in called Grim Reaper which shows a small graph and list of the last X-number of heals/damage you took when you mouse over anyone's unit frame. Extremely useful for figuring out how you or someone got whacked in a hurry.

It's almost the kind of thing I'd rather not know unless we were stuck on something for a long time.

[jpark]

Gah can we try and summarize the main points?  Quote and edit as you see fit:

1.  Warrior inefficiency on multi-target makes 5 mans a pain
2.  Very few spots for a MT (warrior) on raids and Off tanks already occupied (druid/pally)
3.  Warrior threat not scaling well with DPS in the expansion (5 mans anyway)
4.  Warrior class conflicts/competition with hybrids (druids and pallies) - while the latter are flexible enough to be perform several roles.

More and more I am beginning to think the 25 man raids - ironically - have created many more problems than the old 40 man system.  The warrior tank is a good example of that problem.

[Ironwood]

You're raiding with douchebags then. I love any and all healers I can get and I treat them well as a raid leader. If I die as the MT I don't instantly turn to the healers and bitch. I look at my combat log, check my stats, see what kind of crushing hits I took in a row (if any) and then move on. If I think there was an error, I send a tell asking a question. Also, if ANY dps start complaining about healing on any of my runs, they can ride the pine for the while. STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

Recount =

Jesus Fucking Christ, that's not a game, that's a job for an Accountant.

[caladein]

Jesus Fucking Christ, that's not a game, that's a job for an Accountant.

I actually find what % of my healing came from certain spells to be rather fascinating to see over different runs. But the death monitor in Recount (or Grim Reaper) is crazy helpful in knowing if a death was caused because of slow reaction time, miscommunication, or if there was simply no way the person could have lived without some fundamental shift in assignments.

The Graph stuff is a little much and never use it.

[Drubear]

Jesus Fucking Christ, that's not a game, that's a job for an Accountant.

Hehehe, you didn't tank/play Warrior in EQ I guess, eh? The Steel Warrior forums took TheoryCrafting to a whole, nubba, lebbel and the warriors were generally credited with doing most of the dps/combat analysis. Whacking away for hours on end on light blues that didn't hit back and sending logs thru SPSS and SAS for modelling to figure out the equations. You people in Wow have it easy with your DPS right on the tooltip and mods to show parry and crit %.

N00bs...

;)

p.s. great discussion btw. FWIW, I play lvl 65 orc warrior and haven't been in an instance since Sunken Temple, and that one only once (never Maraudon or Gnomeregan (sp?)) on any of my ~20 odd toons.) Never can find a healer...

[Ironwood]

Nah, played EQ once and, er, that was one time too many.

It sucked donkeys.

Same with AO.

[Chimpy]

You're raiding with douchebags then. I love any and all healers I can get and I treat them well as a raid leader. If I die as the MT I don't instantly turn to the healers and bitch. I look at my combat log, check my stats, see what kind of crushing hits I took in a row (if any) and then move on. If I think there was an error, I send a tell asking a question. Also, if ANY dps start complaining about healing on any of my runs, they can ride the pine for the while. STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

Recount =

Jesus Fucking Christ, that's not a game, that's a job for an Accountant.

You also need to be running WoW on DeepBlue to be able to play the game with all the real time graphs up. They totally eat up the FPS. It is a nice little damage/healing tracker though. And it is ace so I can use the lazy man's updater of love.

[Venkman]

There should be a healing class that heals and only that role is viable.

That doesn't make it fun. That just makes it more a penance for the unfortunate or for people with so much time they heal and raids and have the time to go off and have some real fun.

I say ditch the design convention that requires specialized healers altogether. This is a wholesale rethink of the current endgame system though, so I'm not holding my breath :)

[Righ]

STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

That's exactly the sort of attitude likely to ensure that you end up with some of the shittiest players in the game. The cadre outside are there for a reason - they blow. Who the hell wants to play with tanks and healers who have a chip on their shoulder about always being right?

[Paelos]

STFU DPS, you have the simplest damn job in the game, and you can be replaced very quickly with the cadre of others waiting outside. Remember that before you start whining.

That's exactly the sort of attitude likely to ensure that you end up with some of the shittiest players in the game. The cadre outside are there for a reason - they blow. Who the hell wants to play with tanks and healers who have a chip on their shoulder about always being right?

Who the fuck wants to play with DPS who are entitled lootwhores? Simple truth is I can throw a rock and hit a person who can do 85-90% of what they do on the outside. I'll take that over a person who wants to get upset and bitch in the raid. Note that key point, IN THE RAID. I don't care if you come out later and suggest on the forums in a cool-headed discussion where our faults lie, and we work on them. That's what forums are for. You discuss strategy, you critically look at faults, and you correct them for the next run. If you get pissy or whiney or bitchy about things in a raid, it's chaotic and hot-blooded when wipes are going on. Nobody needs that.

We're cruising just fine through SSC with this attitude. I have a bad attitude about people with bad attitudes, and I have even less patience for people with a bad attitude in a job that has massive overpopulation. And no, those people aren't outside because they suck. They are outside because you can't take that 4th person in the same class for the sake of balance in these 25 man setups. We had 43 people sign up for the last run in our alliance, we're starting a second SSC just to cover the bases.

[ShenMolo]

I had a fun experience last night which ties in with this thread.

I tanked a heroic Steamvaults with my MS warrior 31/30 spec.

It was a guild group composed of:

Rogue
Shaman (healer)
Mage
Boomkin
MS Warrior Tank

I had my tank gear on of course, with 12k hp, 490 defense

Our guild has cleared up to Prince in Kara, and this is reflected in our gear. We have the top 5 man/quested stuff, some pvp gear, some Kara/heroic epics.

My point in bringing this up is that we really surprised ourselves. We only wiped 4 times, twice on the first boss. No one was surprised more than me. Up to this point I had never contemplated tanking a heroic as non-prot specced with the gear I have. This showed me that it is definitely doable, and fun as hell to boot.

I don't think I'll attempt it in a PUG. But this showed me that a dps warrior can tank heroics, top the damagemeters in Kara, and off-tank Kara. Main Tank, Off Tank, DPS.

It was fun as hell, kindal like tanking normal SL with a 2 hander.

My Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Aggressor

[Merusk]

Yep, the runs that are the most memorable or most fun are typically the ones where other folks would say "no way we can do this.  /leavegroup"  I did a 2-holy pally (because I'd respecced for arena), rogue-tank, lock, & mage Mechnarr run a couple of weeks ago and it was damned fun.  No way in hell I'd try it with non-guildies, but it was amusing. 

[caladein]

We actually have our Arena-spec'd Pally tank a lot of stuff, all the way through a couple Heroics with no problem. Then again, he swiped a few pieces of tanking gear when we were doing Kara, so that may have something to do with it.

[Morat20]

Yep, the runs that are the most memorable or most fun are typically the ones where other folks would say "no way we can do this.  /leavegroup"  I did a 2-holy pally (because I'd respecced for arena), rogue-tank, lock, & mage Mechnarr run a couple of weeks ago and it was damned fun.  No way in hell I'd try it with non-guildies, but it was amusing. 

Try priest, mage, mage, warlock, warlock Blackfathoms deep run. Highest character level 22. No wipes, cleared the whole damn thing. Was a blast and a half.

[Typhon]

Those runs are fun because not only is everyone on the top of their own game, they are also thinking oevertime into what happens when the usual roles need to blur a bit... as opposed to - "i'm dps, i hit this button every 5 seconds, no more no less,... WHY IS THIS MOB HITTING ME?!?! WHY GOD!?!? WHY!1?!?!?!?!"

IMO game with classes with specific roles encourage inactive brains (or worse, brains which are half-occupied with IMing, watching a show, etc)

[jpark]

I don't think I'll attempt it in a PUG. But this showed me that a dps warrior can tank heroics, top the damagemeters in Kara, and off-tank Kara. Main Tank, Off Tank, DPS.

It was fun as hell, kindal like tanking normal SL with a 2 hander.

My Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Aggressor

I appreciate your comment here but like most tanks this "I" stuff makes a classic error:  What "I" can tank is critically dependent on the strength of healing and the quality of DPS.  Most tanks have a natural tendency to attribute their survival success to themselves (and their death to healers).  Again, this is about tanks in general - not you specifically - I find the double standard logic amusing.

Pre-BC, our main tank on Ebon Roc in BWL tanked her ... NAKED (had Onxyia cloak on but was an MS warrior to boot) - no joke.  Once everyone else gets well geared - and develops skill - the need for solid tanking or a protection tank - diminishes greatly.  In Kara, one of our rogues was reaching the point where he could off tank trash mobs due to the overall increase in party healing/ DPS.

[Ironwood]

Um.

It's not about Gear.

[jpark]

Um.

It's not about Gear.

Have fun at 400 Defense.  Not sure where your coming from Iron - you need to make the gear check as a tank.  If you don't make it - "skill" is not going to make a difference unless the party can absorb the difference.

[Ironwood]

You just said your tank was naked.

Where did he get the Extra +Def ?

[jpark]

You just said your tank was naked.

Where did he get the Extra +Def ?

That's my point - there was NONE.  In order to survive - skilled and massive overhealing was required - and solid DPS.  By making the tank naked in the fight (excluding cloak and weapon) - the tank was of course almost at Zero in terms of a gear check.

[Paelos]

Tanking is about a lot more than gear. The best tanks can multi-task very very well. They can analyze a situation, have a feel for their surroundings, watch their health, watch their aggro, watch their group, and issue commands. The gear is the most basic part of the job, and at times it can make you overconfident.

[Ironwood]

You just said your tank was naked.

Where did he get the Extra +Def ?

That's my point - there was NONE.  In order to survive - skilled and massive overhealing was required - and solid DPS.  By making the tank naked in the fight (excluding cloak and weapon) - the tank was of course almost at Zero in terms of a gear check.

I still fail entirely to see what this has to do with anything.  I am, in fact, stratching my head as to your point.

I would imagine that the DPS in particular (with a naked Tank) would similarly have to scale back the DPS to the point at which they may as well be naked also (with possible +Mana Gear Maybe).

Sure, in that scenario your healers would have to be on tip-top form, but whenever are they NOT ?

You have, I fear, merely thrown in a naked tank to totally confuse the point entirely.

For Shame.

[ShenMolo]

I don't think I'll attempt it in a PUG. But this showed me that a dps warrior can tank heroics, top the damagemeters in Kara, and off-tank Kara. Main Tank, Off Tank, DPS.

It was fun as hell, kindal like tanking normal SL with a 2 hander.

My Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Turalyon&n=Aggressor

I appreciate your comment here but like most tanks this "I" stuff makes a classic error:  What "I" can tank is critically dependent on the strength of healing and the quality of DPS.  Most tanks have a natural tendency to attribute their survival success to themselves (and their death to healers).  Again, this is about tanks in general - not you specifically - I find the double standard logic amusing.

Pre-BC, our main tank on Ebon Roc in BWL tanked her ... NAKED (had Onxyia cloak on but was an MS warrior to boot) - no joke.  Once everyone else gets well geared - and develops skill - the need for solid tanking or a protection tank - diminishes greatly.  In Kara, one of our rogues was reaching the point where he could off tank trash mobs due to the overall increase in party healing/ DPS.

I neglected to point out that the healer on this run did an great job. I don't think, however, that overhealing and savvy dps can keep any warm body, however naked, alive on any run. I didn't make the post to advertise any particular skill on my part. Rather, to make the point that warriors who don't want to spec prot CAN tank heroic instances, under the right conditions. This ties into my original post on page 1 that people don't tank because they don't like speccing prot.

[jpark]

Iron - Heh I can't bothered - have a good weekend.

[Ironwood]

No Problem.  Anytime you want to see a good Tank naked, you just gimme a call, you hear ?

[Azaroth]

I'm expected to mark the mobs, call the crowd control, and pull.  I have to trust all those idiots to CC their targets and DPS them in the correct order.  I have to maintain constant vigilance and use all kinds of mods to make sure that I'm holding all those mobs, none of them have gone anywhere, the CC hasn't broken, and the healer's still alive.  I have to know the content better than anyone else in the group.  I have to know the difference between Oracles and Sirens so I know which one to kill first and which one I should get CC'd (if I even have CC in the group).  I have to know that I have to pull Random Fearing Trash way down the hall so we won't get feared into the next five-pull.

Meanwhile, in a PUG, those idiots will never CC their targets and DPS them in the correct order. Ever. Then it becomes a clusterfuck of attempted multi-mob tanking in a 6 mob pull with the DPS all on various targets of their choice. And WHEN you inevitably wipe, everyone is complaining about YOU.

I tanked for a long time. I used to tank MC and BWL WAY back when. I always prided myself on being a first class tank.

I recently came back and within 3-4 runs of the lowest level BC 5-mans, I've sworn off PUG tanking (I did write "tanking forever", but I'm sure I'll get suckered once in a while against my will).

I'm not sure if this is all just because I've leveled up a prot pally or not, but the AOE/passive aggro generation tanking of the Paladin really does make things effortless and idiot proof. I can HAVE a bunch of 'tards pew pewing different targets, and I don't need much or any CC.

[Megrim]

No Problem.  Anytime you want to see a good Tank naked, you just gimme a call, you hear ?

That reminds me of a time one of my friends who played a pally, would heal in 40-mans wearing nothing but his helm & the dance emote.

[Calantus]

No Problem.  Anytime you want to see a good Tank naked, you just gimme a call, you hear ?

That reminds me of a time one of my friends who played a pally, would heal in 40-mans wearing nothing but his helm & the dance emote.

My brother, on his male dwarf warrior, goes around ganking lowbies wearing this outfit:

Lovely Purple Dress
Hallowed Helm
Farmer's Broom

And riding his Swift Magic Broom

It looks pretty hilarious.

[Xanthippe]

Now that's an awesome outfit!

I now have a lvl 19 warrior (Xanthippe).  First, she wore the Raider's set (orange/red).  Now, she's wearing the Defender's set (blue).  She looks stunning.

However, stats are laughable - or at least, I got laughed at when I played WSG last Friday.  A hunter asked "how many hps do you have?" and I answered "693."  Both teams were fully twinked (except me), the game last 1 hr. 24min., we finally won for a grand total of 11 honor.

I felt like a little kid at the big kids' table.  Rogues were picking on me.  I cherrypicked as much as I could to end up 11kbs and 20 deaths.

Playing a nontwinked BG would be more fun.  Too bad they aren't segregated.

I can't decide if I want to forgo stats for looks.  I hate the circus-y appearance of most gear.  This is the first toon where I've actually enjoyed what I have on.  (Well, the second - those Leggings of Concentrated Darkness are pretty skanky, and guaranteed to attract attention with a tunic.)

I wish there was an image designer in the game - or at least dye! - so that I could wear what I like instead of what gives the best stat combination.

[Merusk]

I wish there was an image designer in the game - or at least dye! - so that I could wear what I like instead of what gives the best stat combination.

Now that I've read about it, I'm hoping WoW steals the EQ2 'visible item' slots.  That'd be awesome, because I could run around in my Giantstalker set once more.  (The only good-looking set of Hunter armor, IMO.)

[Dren]

I wish there was an image designer in the game - or at least dye! - so that I could wear what I like instead of what gives the best stat combination.

Now that I've read about it, I'm hoping WoW steals the EQ2 'visible item' slots.  That'd be awesome, because I could run around in my Giantstalker set once more.  (The only good-looking set of Hunter armor, IMO.)

I don't know that system, but I can guess.  A different paperdoll to put items that are seen but not actually worn?  The stats and effects come from the "real" paperdoll, but aren't seen unless you want them to be?

I could dig that.

[Xanthippe]

Imagine the crying that would result from the arena peoples.