Lack of tanks

[Salamok]

- The equipment thing.  Somebody already mentioned it.  You can find tons of strictly tank plate everywhere.  You can't find any good Pally Tank gear very often.  You basically have to sacrifice Int and that really hurts your time between sitting.  Although there are some blessings, etc. that will help with this too.

Another reason I stopped liking my protection warrior.  The better my "tank" gear got (with the exception of weapon) the more rage starved I became and the harder it was to aggro mobs.  This is a very fucked up mechanic that has been in the game since day 1 and reached critical status with TBC.

Warrior's don't get much wiggle room when they are on the top end of both PvP and PvE though, despite difficulties in the non-heroic 5 man's (and really, only when your DPS are over geared and/or cock mongers) they are still the default tank in all other aspects.

Warriors are a sub par tank in ANY multi trash mob situation, I would say that exceeds your classification of "despite difficulties in the non-heroic 5 man's".  Also, If your tanking ability inhibits the rest of the party from playing as an "over geared cock monger" then your presence as a tank is inhibiting the amount of fun they can have.  Yes you can do it, no it is not near as fun as when they make the run with a pally or druid.  It is no fun to play a warrior when the act of tanking as well as you are able to makes you feel like a charity case for the party that is letting you do it.

[Fabricated]

Pallies also don't have as much raw mitigation in abilities or in itemization. Thunderclap/Demo Shout/Disarm on appropriate mobs is a godsend. Getting your CC classes to make sure they CC mobs away from the group can be tough in pugs but if they do it's easy to hold up to about 4-5 mobs as long as DPS focuses on your main asset. Thunderclap is plenty good enough to handle healing aggro outside of a priest spamming Prayer of Healing.

[Fordel]

Really, the worst multi mob tank is a druid these days, thanks to Swipe nerfage and Thunderclap boosts.

But what I mean about being overgeared and/or being a cock monger, is any DPS'er worth anything, can pull agro at will, it doesn't matter who is tanking. It is as much on the DPS'ers to hold back and manage as it is for tanks to keep the mob aggressed (is that even a word?). Being overgeared only magnifies the responsibility of the DPS'er.

[Xanthippe]

This is exactly the kind of muddied thinking that keeps the present status quo going."Oh, they are overpowered in PvP, they don't need any buffs to skills which would have no damn effect in PvP in the slightest." you see this form of argument daily in the WoW forums.

I am not sure how you managed to pull that out from anything I said.

[Salamok]

Really, the worst multi mob tank is a druid these days, thanks to Swipe nerfage and Thunderclap boosts.

But what I mean about being overgeared and/or being a cock monger, is any DPS'er worth anything, can pull agro at will, it doesn't matter who is tanking. It is as much on the DPS'ers to hold back and manage as it is for tanks to keep the mob aggressed (is that even a word?). Being overgeared only magnifies the responsibility of the DPS'er.

If the tank takes game play up to non sustainable levels AND the group has it's shit together enough to concentrate fire and not to have to sit and have a fucking discussion/marking frenzy on each pull then a warrior can keep aggro on multiple mobs in the face of extreme DPS.  On the 1 hand it is miserably not fun because of the carpal tunnel but on the other hand it is fun for the EQ flashback fuck it lets keep pulling and killing as fast as we can without making a science out of it aspect.  

My hazing/initial interview to get in the last guild I was in consisted of "we are going to shadow labs and if you lose aggro you can look for another guild", I was able to maintain aggro mostly because I didn't have to wait around for anyone to med or mark or any of that rage decaying bullshit.  I was also allowed to charge way more than most groups would have allowed.

[caladein]

I kept target-of-target up and if it ever became me, I FD'd out or took the death if it resisted.

Funnily enough, that's one of the first things I have to beat out of new Hunters in the age of everyone dancing just under the big *Aggro Gain* bar. (If you FD, it'll head to next highest on raw threat, which likely won't be your tank if your DPS are doing their job...)

They're idiots for even letting it get that high in the first place. The last thing you want to beat out of them is using their aggro-wipe, since if they're anywhere near decent at DPS they'll hit top spot quickly.  Instead tell them to Feign 20-30s into the fight and every minute after that. (Or every 30s if they're getting "resist" problems.)  A rotation to have every hunter misdirect to the tank (or two hunters to the tank and offtank for things like Gruul and Void Reaver) every time it's up.  Makes everyone's lives MUCH simpler.   

Yes, the problem I was addressing was, "I FD after I've pulled aggro." That's bad.

FD'ing early and often though is fantastic (just like getting Rogues to Vanish at a certain point in a fight and not when then they pull).

[Phunked]

I agree. Think I said before too, but I love the education from this thread.

Threat Meters
I was recommended Omen. That good enough or is there better?

Threat wipes
I was just told last night that Mage Invisibility also wipes aggro. I did not know this. Too much soloing in BC. Can someone confirm this?

Omen is currently the "king" of the meters.  It doesn't need to be reset for each mob, AND it tracks multiple mobs.  KTM/KLH only tracks aggro per-fight.  So while you may be over the top on the KTM meter after the 3rd mob in a multi-mob pull, you're probably still below the tank.

Invisibilty was a change after BC went live, IIRC.  Yes, it completly wipes aggro for mages now.   As of right now the ONLY pure DPS class that doesn't have a complete aggro wipe as a base ability is a 'Lock.   (Yes, druids, shadow priests, and shaman I know you don't have any but you're not pure dps class.  I'm not saying you don't need it, though.)

Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Warriors have no multi-mob taunt.

They have to cycle through enemies using the TAB key.  There is no set function to make say, F1 through F5 be the nearest enemy, the next nearest enemy and so on, the way healers can hit F1 through F5 for party members.

That totally sucks.

 You're both right and wrong.  They have ONE multi-mob taunt, but it caps at like 4 mobs and it's on a multi-minute cooldown. (I think it's 5min.)  Yes, it sucks.  Yes, they have to tab through enemies making sure to get a sunder/ hit on them to keep their attention.  Yes, it TOTALLY sucks.  It's why I stopped tanking as a warrior, despite my traditional love for the class.  I just wasn't any good at tanking that way, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.  (Fuck I know plenty who suck at it but insist they're great and keep on trying.)

 Tanking as a Pally, on the other hand, is so easy it almost feels exploitive at times.   I can't imagine even trying to tank Shattered Halls with a warrior and not having the instance take forever.  It takes me roughly 1 1/2 hours on my paladin with a good healer, because I can just aggro whole rooms and tank them.  Heals keep my mana up so I can keep on spamming concecrate and holy shield.  Aggro on the first mob or two MIGHT be tricky, but after that they've all done so much holy damage to themselves while beating on me they're not going to get pulled-off.

It is possible to tank these places. However I think I understand what people are getting at here better now as I read your posts (and make some comments of my own).

Right now, I'm going to be honest. Tanking Illidan requires the same amount of  effort and concentration as tanking a heroic SH. The difference is that heroic SH requires that you do this for 40 minutes straight and Illidan requires that you do this for 18 minutes. By this analysis, heroic SH is 2x harder than Illidan. I'm not even kidding. I go into a 5 man, and I'm using every global cooldown for threat, every rotation for maximum agro, taunt typically down, etc. I do this in T6 gear and using a thunderfury (I got it a week ago, largely for this purpose). In a 5 man. With mobs that equally level DPS can 3 shot. Why? Because while the DPS can 3 shot the mobs, the mobs can 1 shot them. Sure these places aren't very hard anymore, but while any T6 level DPS can be half asleep and AFK and still be doing "WTF HOLY SHIT AWESOME" the tank still has to be trying as hard as he was back when everyone was in dungeon blues.

Tanks always have to be on the ball and actively working to keep agro off DPS. Meanwhile, DPS can do the laziest rotation in the world and still overpreform relative to the instance, and healers can just throw on a HoT or something. Constant pressure is fun for a while, but eventually you end up just wanting to take it easy on a run or two. I'm not saying permanent aura of agro or anything, but maybe some better AoE agro weapons? (hint, my thunderfury is getting old and I've only had it a week or two). WTB level 70 version for everyone, not just raiders.

[Phred]

This is exactly the kind of muddied thinking that keeps the present status quo going."Oh, they are overpowered in PvP, they don't need any buffs to skills which would have no damn effect in PvP in the slightest." you see this form of argument daily in the WoW forums.

I am not sure how you managed to pull that out from anything I said.

By your interjection of how kick ass warriors were in PvP in a discussion of their lack of Pve tanking ability. It's like discussing how good a truck Ford makes in a discussion on family cars. :)

[Fabricated]

I thought Thunderfury's threat got the shit nerfed out of it?

[Chimpy]

I thought Thunderfury's threat got the shit nerfed out of it?

Even if the threat was nerfed (again) the attack speed debuff is still the bomb from what I hear.

Though I doubt anyone MT'ing above Kara would use it simply because the white dmg is so underwhelming compared to the tanking 1h items in BC.

If it wasn't for the proc keeping it close, the 2 tanking swords in Naxx were better than Thunderfury by a large margin. I think even our Thunderfury warrior even picked the one up off widow for off tanking in multi-target situations. But that could have been to lower his repair bill for his deaths :p

[Phunked]

I use some combination of: Blade of Savagery (http://wowhead.com/?item=32369) (low rage); Unbreakable Will (http://wowhead.com/?item=30874#comments) (high stamina set) and Mallet of the Tides (http://wowhead.com/?item=30058) for when I need to avoid parries and such (going to be more useful after 2.3). For all around stuff; The Brutalizer http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254 is where it's at (we've had amazing luck with melee weapon drops, and it isn't like these things are useful to anyone else).

That said, thunderfury is still the best multimob tanking weapon in the game because of the proc (also the only multimob tanking weapon). In Naxx, I was using a different weapon for avoidance (widow's remorce or the hungering cold, one with agi and the other with crusader). I'd never gotten a thunderfury and the only one in guild was on a rogue.  Still thunderfury was damn awesome with the proc (was good stuff back then). I think that it was *the* weapon that defined tanking. Definitely legendary. Glad I finally got one. (5 man garr =so much fun).

[Salamok]

I thought Thunderfury's threat got the shit nerfed out of it?

Thunderclap the talent got a boost.

Thunderfury the weapon from pre TBC got a nerf.

[Ironwood]

Hmmm, there appears to be a general consensus that threat scaling for warriors is broken.

Who knew.

[Jayce]

Glad I finally got one. (5 man garr =so much fun).

I was wondering who you convinced to go to MC as far as Garr.  5 man eh? 

Isn't there some requirement for the ingots that drop off Golemagg too?

[Xanthippe]

This is exactly the kind of muddied thinking that keeps the present status quo going."Oh, they are overpowered in PvP, they don't need any buffs to skills which would have no damn effect in PvP in the slightest." you see this form of argument daily in the WoW forums.

I am not sure how you managed to pull that out from anything I said.

By your interjection of how kick ass warriors were in PvP in a discussion of their lack of Pve tanking ability. It's like discussing how good a truck Ford makes in a discussion on family cars. :)

I understand how you got the idea that I think that warriors are OP in pvp (they totally are), but you're making a completely unwarranted assumption, which has absolutely nothing to do with me or anything I said.  That jump defies logic.

Which is basically why I asked in the first place - I figured there was a real answer to my question, which was sincerely asked.

Almost back to topic, are there any plans by Blizz to change the scaling of threat for warriors?

Now, back to topic - I titled my post "lack of tanks" not "lack of warriors."  I'm finding that for pugs in the pre-70 instances - Hellfire, Coilfang, etc. - that finding a tank - whether pally druid or warrior - is more difficult than finding healers.  Hell, finding a tank for AV boss is hard.  Horde seem to have plenty of plate in AV; but alliance seems to be mostly ranged dps.

Thoughts on that?

[jpark]

I am not quite sure I follow the argument that threat scaling for warriors is broken.

Shield slam (block) and devastate (damage) both incorporate elements of the weapon - so the better the weapons - the better the threat generated from these aggro devices.  But, their usage really requires a lot of rage - so always usable in raiding - not so much in 5 mans.

[Ironwood]

Um.  That's unbelievable simplistic.

The main fact of the 'brokenness' is the scaling with the dps.  The DPS is given a lot of new and powerful toys and then the tanks are put in the position of saying 'hey, guys, don't use your new toys because you'll die'.

This is fundamentally unfun.

Even Phunked, who has argued reasonably and well in the face of criticism admits that the solution to the problem is for the 4 others in the party to 'hold back'.

You wouldn't accept that in a whorehouse, I don't see why you should accept it in WoW.

Further, you go get a nice big shield and one hander and then tell me how your threat scales....

[Salamok]

I am not quite sure I follow the argument that threat scaling for warriors is broken.

Shield slam (block) and devastate (damage) both incorporate elements of the weapon - so the better the weapons - the better the threat generated from these aggro devices.  But, their usage really requires a lot of rage - so always usable in raiding - not so much in 5 mans.

Exactly, 5mans or trash clearing=teh broke

Also, the 2 talents you named are only available for warriors that go ALL the way into the protection tree.  I think the consensus is ANY warrior should at least be able to tank a 5 man (heroics too if gear is decent) and protection warriors should be able to do it as well as ANY other class/spec combo.

edit: I can agree that a certain amount of diversity among the boss mobs helps keep things a bit fresher, so I am fine with mixing up boss encounters so they favor a class but trash should not be like that.

[Ironwood]

Fuck That :  Protection Warriors should be tanking GODS.

Otherwise, what's the fucking point ?

[Salamok]

Fuck That :  Protection Warriors should be tanking GODS.

Otherwise, what's the fucking point ?

QFT, I TOTALLY AGREE

that said Blizzard fucked up and gave the druids and pallies a taste of OUR cake it would be unfair at this point to take it entirely away from them.

[Ironwood]

Um, should that be in Green ?  That's not quite the Official Forums Attitude I was trying for...

[Salamok]

Um, should that be in Green ?  That's not quite the Official Forums Attitude I was trying for...

lol no, i'll stick with the white.  My lil tank has been messed over by Blizzard in so many ways that I just don't wish that on anyone else.  Here, let me show you on the doll:

1 - They take away slam while moving!
2 - They take away in combat bandaging!
3 - We suck for awhile at everything but tanking, I am loving life because there are no warriors but me, naturally Blizz buffs the crap out of our DPS so all the FoTM tards roll a warrior.
4 - They take away my beloved Bloodthirst (never mind I was done leveling and specced out of it, I still loved it).
5 - They screw up the attack power bonus for slow weapons!  F THEM!  RAT BASTARDS!
6 - They nerf ALL my carefully farmed defense gear and make me almost wish I had been collecting valor. ASSHOLES!
7 - They add an epic set of valor that made me wish I really had been collecting this garbage.
8 - I quit for awhile.
9 - TBC gets released and I find out that my protection specced ass is the 3rd best 5-man tank in the game and all PUGs are forever fucked up for me because no one seems to understand.
10 - Not sure when the marking system was added but F YOU BLIZZARD!  Main Assist > Marking any day of the week and 2x on sunday if the noobs can't figure it ouit fuck them too!

This doll has been all worn out.

[Lietgardis]

To get back to the original question, since no one in this entire thread mentioned my pet reason:

Why does there seem to be a lack of tanks in Outlands?

Seems to be easier to find healers than tanks.  Why?

Because tanks are the default group leaders, and it sucks to lead groups through the multi-mob pulls that are the hallmark of all those instances except for Arcatraz and Black Morass.

I'm expected to mark the mobs, call the crowd control, and pull.  I have to trust all those idiots to CC their targets and DPS them in the correct order.  I have to maintain constant vigilance and use all kinds of mods to make sure that I'm holding all those mobs, none of them have gone anywhere, the CC hasn't broken, and the healer's still alive.  I have to know the content better than anyone else in the group.  I have to know the difference between Oracles and Sirens so I know which one to kill first and which one I should get CC'd (if I even have CC in the group).  I have to know that I have to pull Random Fearing Trash way down the hall so we won't get feared into the next five-pull.

With a guild group, I know that everyone knows the content.  I don't have to mark (in, say, Shattered Halls or Shadow Labyrinth, I just designate an assist because I know we all understand that concept) and I don't need to rely as much on CC.  And everyone is very well geared for our server, so stuff dies fast and I don't have to waste two hours on an instance that should take 45 minutes.

So that's why I'm one of those elitist tanks who stands around in Shatt with really nice gear, politely declining all invites.  It's not because tanking isn't fun, it's because leading PUGs isn't fun.

[Ironwood]

No, you're correct.

But why isn't in fun in Pug's is a different question to the more basic why isn't it fun ?

[Chimpy]

Glad I finally got one. (5 man garr =so much fun).

I was wondering who you convinced to go to MC as far as Garr.  5 man eh? 

Isn't there some requirement for the ingots that drop off Golemagg too?

Thunderfury requires the Left and Right bindings (Garr and Geddon) and the essence of the firelord off of Ragnaros.

Sulfuras requires 12 sulfuron ingots off golemagg.

[jpark]

Fuck That :  Protection Warriors should be tanking GODS.

Otherwise, what's the fucking point ?

QFT, I TOTALLY AGREE

that said Blizzard fucked up and gave the druids and pallies a taste of OUR cake it would be unfair at this point to take it entirely away from them.

But warriors were not eating the cake    Pre-BC, outside of healers, tanks were hard to find for 5 mans.  That's why my cadre of RL friends did well - we could put together a 5 man instantly with a tank in our group.  It seemed to get so bad - for some guys they had an easier time joining a guild raid than putting together a 5 man.

Just like EQ - Blizzard has made this move in response to a continuing absence of warrior tanks - and spread these abilities to hybrid classes.  The priest has experienced similar encroachment.

Leitgartis - well said.  I often join PuGs with a sense of dread - am I up for beating the group into disciplined formation again?  This is a strong incentive for tanks to only group with people they know very well.

[Phunked]

Glad I finally got one. (5 man garr =so much fun).

I was wondering who you convinced to go to MC as far as Garr.  5 man eh? 

Isn't there some requirement for the ingots that drop off Golemagg too?

Yeah, we did it with a druid healer, myself, a prot pally (for the adds) a rogue and an enhancement shaman. After that I got ~15 more to zerg clear it to rag for the other quest item. We've had the elementium bars stockpiled for ages.

In regards to the notion of threat scaling with weapons and shields; I present to you this.

Phunked's Guide to Dead End Agro Generation

Okay so. You're here with us on the raiding scene. You want to hold teh agroes. You see that going from blues to purplez makes your rogues do like 4x more damage. Surely a similar improvement to your performance is right around the corner right?

So you zone into Kara, start killing stuff. At first you notice that while your blue gear has lots of well rounded stats like str, sta, agi and some defense rating, those nasty bastards are hitting you really often and really hard. You realize that there may come a point when a large burst of damage will flatten you before any healer, no matter how good can react. The first time you see this will likely be when you're fighting Prince. Now, because you're not an idiot, and realize that thousands of other guilds farm this bastard weekly, you don't go post on the Raids and Dungeons forums about how Prince is too hard/random/whatever. Instead, you go to the Elitist Jerk Forums and start reading on how2tank better. You notice that all the other warriors are stacking stamina to avoid the previous case of WTFPWN'T. So you figure that it might be wise to take out your 4str/6sta gems and put 12sta into everything. And you do. Then you start looking for items that have the most base stamina, and start wearing those instead of your rounded gear. At some point, you stumble on that avoidance/stamina debate, and figure out that getting some dodge/parry might also be nice. You like dodge more than parry because its cheaper on the item budget. You know you love agility, because it's nearly as cheap as dodge and also gives you crit. But Blizzard doesn't make very many tanking items with agility on them. So you're stuck picking up dodge rating and stamina. Pretty soon you notice that you have less attack power than you had in your blue set. But that's okay, because you're getting your damage from your weapon right? So you grab yourself a King's Defender and for a while everything is nice. You have  shiny sword, you're a brick wall and unless they're really stupid, most DPSers aren't passing you on threat too much.

Now fast forward to Black Temple. You've been following your previous strategies. You take the drops that look like they're meant for tanking. You know this because they have boatloads of stamina and dodge/parry rating and not much else. You keep  putting 12/15sta gems in everything. You have lots of HP. You have lots of avoidance. You might even grab a new weapon. It has ~8 more DPS than your old one. Your shield might have 40 more block value. And in total, you've gained 2000 HP. Sounds nice right?

Except for this. HP and avoidance help you not die. They do not help you generate more threat. Your higher DPS weapons are offset by the fact that the boss now has more base armor. Your sunder armor still reduces the same amount, so in general, you're fighting things which have a higher mitigation now. This means you do less damage. Especially your shield slams, which have a multiplier on the amount of threat they produce based directly on the damage they do, are staying at about the same threat/use, because even though you're doing more base damage, the boss is mitigating more of it. You still have the same attack power as you had in blues. Even though you're passively immune to crushing blows by now, you still generate the same 700 TPS that you were generating before you set foot in a raid instance. The problem is, you can't swap out your tank pieces for more AP/crit/hit/whatever because you're still at risk of getting WTFPWN'T by burst damage. I'm not even going to mention the rage starvation when you dodge/parry every other hit. It'd be like if the more mana a caster had, the weaker their spells would be.

The type of gear required to scale well with both increased damage intake and increased threat output doesn't exist. If it did, it would be insanely overpowered.  But there is zero effective scaling in threat. The gains you get from weapons and shields are designed to keep you at the same level of TPS relative to the boss and his ever growing armor/mitigation/etc.

[Paelos]

Fuck That :  Protection Warriors should be tanking GODS.

Otherwise, what's the fucking point ?

QFT, I TOTALLY AGREE

that said Blizzard fucked up and gave the druids and pallies a taste of OUR cake it would be unfair at this point to take it entirely away from them.

But warriors were not eating the cake    Pre-BC, outside of healers, tanks were hard to find for 5 mans.  That's why my cadre of RL friends did well - we could put together a 5 man instantly with a tank in our group.  It seemed to get so bad - for some guys they had an easier time joining a guild raid than putting together a 5 man.

Just like EQ - Blizzard has made this move in response to a continuing absence of warrior tanks - and spread these abilities to hybrid classes.  The priest has experienced similar encroachment.

See, but they fixed the wrong damn thing. Now you have every shitty pally and druid thinking they can tank anything and wondering why they can't get into 25 man raids because you only need 3-4 tanks and 7-8 healers. How many druid healers do you know anymore? How many pallys suddenly got a hardon for tanking over healing? It was freaking retarded to take classes that had healing capabilities and turn them into tanks. What they should have done is make the warrior tank more fun to play with better soloability and less stress. More rage that's not based on getting hit, more viable dps in the outside world comparable to 50% of what the dps classes can do instead of 20%, and more scaled threat on the base abilities. I mean it's not that hard to fix ONE class.

Instead they broke 2 more to do this. Yeah, I said it. I don't like all these hybrid tanks because it royally fucks the endgame. They gear up in 5 mans and Kara, then they bitch about not getting to tank all the time in 25 mans because they don't like to heal. Fuck that.

[Phred]

This is exactly the kind of muddied thinking that keeps the present status quo going."Oh, they are overpowered in PvP, they don't need any buffs to skills which would have no damn effect in PvP in the slightest." you see this form of argument daily in the WoW forums.

I am not sure how you managed to pull that out from anything I said.

By your interjection of how kick ass warriors were in PvP in a discussion of their lack of Pve tanking ability. It's like discussing how good a truck Ford makes in a discussion on family cars. :)

I understand how you got the idea that I think that warriors are OP in pvp (they totally are), but you're making a completely unwarranted assumption, which has absolutely nothing to do with me or anything I said.  That jump defies logic.

Which is basically why I asked in the first place - I figured there was a real answer to my question, which was sincerely asked.

Almost back to topic, are there any plans by Blizz to change the scaling of threat for warriors?

Now, back to topic - I titled my post "lack of tanks" not "lack of warriors."  I'm finding that for pugs in the pre-70 instances - Hellfire, Coilfang, etc. - that finding a tank - whether pally druid or warrior - is more difficult than finding healers.  Hell, finding a tank for AV boss is hard.  Horde seem to have plenty of plate in AV; but alliance seems to be mostly ranged dps.

Thoughts on that?

Partly blame it on me reading your thread over multiple days and forgetting you started it. :) Your post I responded too sounded so much like a typical WoW general post replying saying Warriors were gods in pvp   and therefor needed no help anyway it set me off (I play a hunter main and we get the same damn arguments so I'm a bit sensitive to it).

AV bosses are just another form of PVE fight and so dont really represent PVP much, IMO. When I played my war in AV last year for faction rewards I know it was the same situation, with the bonus of no healers either. I used to be totally shocked when I actually got a heal and managed to live though tanking warmasters. On our server, it seems, a lot of druid and pally tanks have moved up to fill in the games for tankage, and even new tanks.  ( we had a 61 pt protection tank in Steamvaults yesterday who didn't know what LoS was.)

[Montague]

Fuck That :  Protection Warriors should be tanking GODS.

Otherwise, what's the fucking point ?

QFT, I TOTALLY AGREE

that said Blizzard fucked up and gave the druids and pallies a taste of OUR cake it would be unfair at this point to take it entirely away from them.

But warriors were not eating the cake    Pre-BC, outside of healers, tanks were hard to find for 5 mans.  That's why my cadre of RL friends did well - we could put together a 5 man instantly with a tank in our group.  It seemed to get so bad - for some guys they had an easier time joining a guild raid than putting together a 5 man.

Just like EQ - Blizzard has made this move in response to a continuing absence of warrior tanks - and spread these abilities to hybrid classes.  The priest has experienced similar encroachment.

See, but they fixed the wrong damn thing. Now you have every shitty pally and druid thinking they can tank anything and wondering why they can't get into 25 man raids because you only need 3-4 tanks and 7-8 healers. How many druid healers do you know anymore? How many pallys suddenly got a hardon for tanking over healing? It was freaking retarded to take classes that had healing capabilities and turn them into tanks. What they should have done is make the warrior tank more fun to play with better soloability and less stress. More rage that's not based on getting hit, more viable dps in the outside world comparable to 50% of what the dps classes can do instead of 20%, and more scaled threat on the base abilities. I mean it's not that hard to fix ONE class.

Instead they broke 2 more to do this. Yeah, I said it. I don't like all these hybrid tanks because it royally fucks the endgame. They gear up in 5 mans and Kara, then they bitch about not getting to tank all the time in 25 mans because they don't like to heal. Fuck that.

Hell nobody plays Druids now to begin with. Get rid of bear tanks and you might as well delete the class.

If pallies and druids weren't viable tanks, getting a 5-man regular or heroic PUG run right now would be close to impossible. Yeah it creates more competition at the raid level but really - 4 healing classes vs 1 tanking class is not a sustainable design decision, especially with Blizzard going away from straight up tank and spank fights.

[Nebu]

Raiding with 4 friends = fun.

Raiding with 4 pickups = stab in the face.

I realize that MMO's are meant to be social, but there are ways to be social without letting morons ruin my fun during the limited free time I have available.  Why do I even bring this up?  I thought about making a tank for the endgame and thought the better of it.  I am going to solo what bits that I can and call it quits.

[Merusk]

You want to bitch about healers, Pae, go roll one.  Really.  It sucks, it's not fun, and there's about as much pressure as tanking. YOU'RE the one getting yelled at by the DPS when they're morons and pull aggro, or when the tank who's just .01% under-geared takes that one-in-a-thousand hit, gets wtfpwnd and the raid wipes.

The entire enjoyment of the raid is staring at 25 little bars, or if you're overstocked on healers the 5 in your group, or the one for your role.  Watch that bar, motherfucker, and while watching it be aware of all the bullshit timers and dancing and movement.. but DON'T YOU FUCKING MISS THAT HEAL even tho you're at 2k HP, and the Arcane Orb just got fired at you.

There's all these hybrids doing tanking now because it's more fun than the role you're trying to pigeonhole them into. 

Fun, anyone remember that?  Probably not, you're playing a tanking warrior.

[Calantus]

I've been saying since the beginning that hybrid healers with great healing are a mistake. There should be a healing class that heals and only that role is viable. Oh you can suffer through leveling solo but you won't like it. Think release holy priest leveling. Yeah. Now require 2-3 healers in an entire raid and only that. Some people like to heal, most people seemingly don't. The mistake Blizzard made is luring people to play healing classes with promises of shiny DPS and then forcing them to heal because you don't have enough people who just want to be healers. Hybrid healers should be like those ret paladins that have 3k mana. They can heal themselves between fights and can pop off a few heals in an emergency but otherwise they're not healing much at all.

[Selby]

You want to bitch about healers, Pae, go roll one.  Really.  It sucks, it's not fun, and there's about as much pressure as tanking. YOU'RE the one getting yelled at by the DPS when they're morons and pull aggro, or when the tank who's just .01% under-geared takes that one-in-a-thousand hit, gets wtfpwnd and the raid wipes.

I actually like healing but yeah, it sucks almost as bad as tanking.  Not to mention people yell at you more than any other class in my experience.  Definitely not any more fun with a sucky raid healer leader who decides to go into bear form and start doing DPS and then yells at you for not healing fast enough...  I've never actually had an experience with people yelling at the tank, it has always been people yelling at the healers for not keeping the life bars filled fast enough.

[Phunked]

My first toon was actually a resto druid, whom I level to 60 at release as resto, before the "druids don't suck now" patch(1.5?). At least I was rolling in the (then, and now) absolutely horrible Shardnarion and Nexusrage.

I thought it was amazing fun. I'm sure at that point, I also thought that gouging my eyes out with a rusty spoon was fun. Two frontal lobotomies later, I think my perception of reality is a lot more in tune now. Even still, I've raided with a druid as a healer (and later with a palladin and most recently a shaman) both pre and post TBC in the raid game. Whack-a-mole v.5.0015 is fun stuff and all, but really I can see how people get burned out doing it if they're of a particular persuasion. That being the sane and fun loving persuasion. I wouldn't want the end game to be 2-3 healers per raid though, because that would suck for the class balance. 2-3 healers and 1 tank for 25 people is stupid. Because that leaves a global ratio of 21dps:1 tank and 7dps:1healer.

Try getting an instance run as an enhancement shaman/fury warrior/balance druid/ret pally then. They should make healing and tanking more fun (not going to happen without a massive revamp of the entire game) instead of making end game content require less of each. When your server has 50 tanks and you need 2, it's hard to find one. When you have 10 and need 1 it's even worse.