Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"

[Hoax]

Making a virtual world while nobody can be bothered or is capable of improving AI much from the AI we had 10 years ago does seem like a total waste of time.

I would say that judging from the number of anime that are huge hits where some kid is trapped in a video game world that its not only old men who the "virtual world" escapism appeals to but for now Lobby games are just much better right now and the "top" MMO's play like lobby games 90% of the time.

[Maven]

The main point I took out of the previous posts is that it's not so much the products and the sales, but poor planning (typical of developers, feature creep, accelerated development schedules, etc.) and unrealistic publisher expectations (typical of publishers). This is summarized when Electronic Arts said that Dead Space III needs to sell 5 million units to justify further development and aside from some skewering, it didn't progress to where they were put on a spit and roasted.

If we look globally based on that list, WoW is still a powerhouse, but it is the most visible in the eyes of English speaking audiences.

What the figures quoted don't state is profit. Profit makes any project worth keeping around, regardless of total revenue.

[Venkman]

Well, yea. But we're not talking about all viable businesses. We're just talking about the ones people brag about. This is why UO can be in this topic at all. How many newer gamers even know Ultima the brand, much less UO itself? And yet that still gets resources to keep the lights on.

Any game that isn't shuttered is alive for some reason. It's either part of a library with shared resources such that individual games don't need to completely stand on their own (SOE), or after years of tuning, the company found the right cross section between costs and revenues for their one reason to exist (CCP).

That's one of the differences between looking at this as games vs businesses. It's easy to get pissed off when something doesn't or no longer caters to one as a gamer. And it's fun to get into all those debates about blockbusters vs critical reception and sales and shit. But it not/no longer appealing to that gamer doesn't mean it's a bad business, a dead one, or wrong for existing.

[Paelos]

I'd like to have an MMO I enjoyed playing now. Most of them seem stuck in the same tab-target variation on combat with some tweaks that I can get in WoW. If it looks and plays like WoW, I'm going to play WoW because I already know what I'm getting there, and I have a built in set of stuff I've done.

But I don't want to play WoW anymore, and as such I don't want to play another thing that looks like WoW. That's what all future MMOs have to realize. To get that next big wave, you actually have to innovate and do something nobody has done.

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm the exact opposite; I enjoy the leveling experience in WoW and had high hopes that Wildstar would be more of the same. I love moving to new areas, consuming fresh content for the first time, etc. Wildstar does actually have all that stuff, but the solo combat just requires too much attention to be enjoyable as a fun diversion with netflix on the second monitor. And of course the group and raid content is waaaaaay too difficult. I don't want to wipe 20 times in a pick-up group. I don't want a "progression" experience at level 20, having to teach everybody the proper way to proceed, with people I'll never see again. Screw that noise.

[Setanta]

Megaserver kicks in - now eery one needs to go from one name to Firstname and Surname but no option to put in spaces (as other MMOs are happy to).

Now you have long 2 name nameplates taking up the screen and whispering people is a pain (but not unheard of becayuse the whisper system is shit) :D

I still like this game - just not for it's end game or grindiness.

[Samprimary]

Looks like Carbine just shed 60 or so employees.

[Rendakor]

Sauce on that? I heard about Turbine but not these guys.

[Samprimary]

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/23/7050545/wildstar-carbine-studios-layoffs

[Rendakor]

Thanks. Not really a surprise as Wildstar didn't reinvent the WoW. The plan to focus on mobile and tablet games is kinda of though.

[Fabricated]

Wow, shocking!

[Nonentity]

I guess this is the time to say I worked at Carbine for five years and I was affected by the layoffs today. Cheers!

[Samprimary]

w.e.l.p.

[angry.bob]

I guess this is the time to say I worked at Carbine for five years and I was affected by the layoffs today. Cheers!

Sorry to hear that. As long as you didn't make any of the design decisions I didn't like anyway.

[Nonentity]

Yeah, I just did IT there so I wasn't really involved in design decisions too much. That being said, I think the team that remains there can move the game in the right direction. We'll just see how long that takes, I guess.

[Setanta]

I re-subbed because I'm sick. Played for an hour and won't re-sub again. The game is just too much effort for no fun return. It's an absolute grind to watch the XP bar move (I'm at 46) and while the game is as beautiful as I remember, the combat is so fucking painful it's not funny :(

[Fabricated]

Every once in a while the shitposter game forum on SA produces something quotable; from an IZ poster to one of Wildstar's devs who apparently posted in the Wildstar thread on SA:

"Your game fucking sucks, maybe you shouldn't have catered to the absolute worst players, and made one of the most unfun MMOs ever. *holds up giant crystal ball and looks into it* I see... A mobile endless runner in your future. Lmao"

[Merusk]

Thanks. Not really a surprise as Wildstar didn't reinvent the WoW. The plan to focus on mobile and tablet games is kinda of though.

Why, other than they're getting in late and chasing a market? We've had this discussion before. While mobile games are shit for 'core' gamers they rake in tons of cash, which is all NC Soft cares about. 

Hell, even Square is doing mobile these days.

People are stupid. Smart people fleece them for money.

[Threash]

It would be nice to hear at least one person involved in this game admit what a horrible God damn mistake catering to hardcore raiders was.  It wasn't just a bad idea, it was a blatantly obvious bad idea that probably killed this game and anyone with cursory knowledge of MMOs should have known it.

[Paelos]

It would be nice to hear at least one person involved in this game admit what a horrible God damn mistake catering to hardcore raiders was.  It wasn't just a bad idea, it was a blatantly obvious bad idea that probably killed this game and anyone with cursory knowledge of MMOs should have known it.

Won't happen in a million years. It takes a man to admit a mistake, and game developers don't usually employ men at the top of their organizations. They employ grown boys.

[Signe]

Yeah, I just did IT there so I wasn't really involved in design decisions too much. That being said, I think the team that remains there can move the game in the right direction. We'll just see how long that takes, I guess.

I'm sorry.  I wondered about you when I read the story earlier.  Hope you find something awesome and fun to work on next.  Good luck to you!

[Draegan]

It would be nice to hear at least one person involved in this game admit what a horrible God damn mistake catering to hardcore raiders was.  It wasn't just a bad idea, it was a blatantly obvious bad idea that probably killed this game and anyone with cursory knowledge of MMOs should have known it.

I think the problem is that it really didn't cater to hardcores, it's just the hardcores making the game really like to talk about their raids. Outside their stupid raid gating methods, and their typical raid encounters the game had a ton of shit design for casual players. Whether or not that content was good was another story, but they didn't cater the game to hardcore raiders. The vastvastvast majority of the content was for casual players.

[Nevermore]

This just in: Wildstar fails because it wasn't hardcore enough! 

[Paelos]

I knew somebody would say it. I just figured it wasn't going to be anybody on this site.

The going excuse for every hardcore failure is that they didn't go far enough. NOT NEARLY ENOUGH HARDCORE DAMN YOU CASUALS!

[Malakili]

I knew somebody would say it. I just figured it wasn't going to be anybody on this site.

The going excuse for every hardcore failure is that they didn't go far enough. NOT NEARLY ENOUGH HARDCORE DAMN YOU CASUALS!

My next mmo design employs permadeath.  If you die in the game we will dispatch someone to you house and kill you.  That should put an end to those filthy casuals.

[Threash]

It would be nice to hear at least one person involved in this game admit what a horrible God damn mistake catering to hardcore raiders was.  It wasn't just a bad idea, it was a blatantly obvious bad idea that probably killed this game and anyone with cursory knowledge of MMOs should have known it.

I think the problem is that it really didn't cater to hardcores, it's just the hardcores making the game really like to talk about their raids. Outside their stupid raid gating methods, and their typical raid encounters the game had a ton of shit design for casual players. Whether or not that content was good was another story, but they didn't cater the game to hardcore raiders. The vastvastvast majority of the content was for casual players.

Then why does everyone who actually played it hate it so much?

[Rasix]

You're asking the FoH guy to clarify his statement about the casual-friendliness of a game. 



The game made zero effort to introduce players into its group content in a way that would actually promote further investment in that content.  Hell, Vanilla WoW did a better job of introducing players to group play.

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm amazed they aren't going B2P/F2P already.

In fact I'm amazed they didn't have a full B2P or F2P plan set and ready to go from day 1. It's 2014 for fuck's sake. Open your eyes, people! You don't launch a MMO in 2014 without preparing for the most likely result!

Oh, and I'm amazed that NCsoft is seemingly going to abandon their huge sunk costs for the past 7 years of development.

I'm just, generally, amazed. How do you spend so much money, after watching so many past object lessons, and still be so clueless?

And when is that Lineage money going to run out?

[Nonentity]

And when is that Lineage money going to run out?

Blade and Soul has been ridiculously profitable for them in China and Korea.

[Venkman]

I think the problem is that it really didn't cater to hardcores, it's just the hardcores making the game really like to talk about their raids. Outside their stupid raid gating methods, and their typical raid encounters the game had a ton of shit design for casual players. Whether or not that content was good was another story, but they didn't cater the game to hardcore raiders. The vastvastvast majority of the content was for casual players.

Then why does everyone who actually played it hate it so much?

Not catering to the hardcores doesn't automatically mean they effectively targeted the casuals The game tried to make things more interactive while lowering the barrier in terms of humor, look and options. But everything they tried WoW already did better, and their unique combat system didn't turn out to be what people wanted.

Oh, and I'm amazed that NCsoft is seemingly going to abandon their huge sunk costs for the past 7 years of development.

Tax writeoffs? And given all the changes Wildstar apparently went through, I doubt we're talking 7 linear years of development. Could have been option A was the first 4 years and what we got this year was a massive overhaul 3 years ago.

Man though I can't imagine how THOSE meetings must have gone though, especially the ones in the upper levels.

And sorry to hear that Nonentity 

[Draegan]

It would be nice to hear at least one person involved in this game admit what a horrible God damn mistake catering to hardcore raiders was.  It wasn't just a bad idea, it was a blatantly obvious bad idea that probably killed this game and anyone with cursory knowledge of MMOs should have known it.

I think the problem is that it really didn't cater to hardcores, it's just the hardcores making the game really like to talk about their raids. Outside their stupid raid gating methods, and their typical raid encounters the game had a ton of shit design for casual players. Whether or not that content was good was another story, but they didn't cater the game to hardcore raiders. The vastvastvast majority of the content was for casual players.

Then why does everyone who actually played it hate it so much?

Because the game had shitty quests, shitty classes, shitty combat, shitty everything. It had nothing to do with being "hardcore".

[Draegan]

You're asking the FoH guy to clarify his statement about the casual-friendliness of a game.  



The game made zero effort to introduce players into its group content in a way that would actually promote further investment in that content.  Hell, Vanilla WoW did a better job of introducing players to group play.

Actually, I'm not a hardcore player anymore, haven't been in like 5 years. Kids and all. In any case, hardcore gameplay is stupid to begin with. However, Wildstar didn't do a bad job doing group combat. It had all those adventure things or whatever the fuck they were. I have no idea what you're talking about.

The problem was all the group content, class interaction and everything else was utterly shitty. But they tried.

A better question would be, what would that mean to be introduced to group content? What would you like to see.

[Rendakor]

FFXIV has tutorial dungeons that teach you the core mechanics of grouping, and they (along with a lot of group content) are mandatory for progressing the story quest.

Rasix that's an amazing gif and I'm shamelessly stealing it.

[Draegan]

FFXIV has tutorial dungeons that teach you the core mechanics of grouping, and they (along with a lot of group content) are mandatory for progressing the story quest.

Rasix that's an amazing gif and I'm shamelessly stealing it.

Do you really need that much hand holding? Don't you play video games?

[Fabricated]

FFXIV has tutorial dungeons that teach you the core mechanics of grouping, and they (along with a lot of group content) are mandatory for progressing the story quest.

Rasix that's an amazing gif and I'm shamelessly stealing it.

Do you really need that much hand holding? Don't you play video games?

Not all of us have deeply ingrained autism.