Star Trek Online - "Boldly going where Everyone has gone before"

[Draegan]

That might be an interesting minigame.  Of course the manual you get on how to operate a warp drive will take a degree in mechanical engineering to understand.. good thing I got one of those a few years ago.. and I will be able to be the next Scottie.

[Mrbloodworth]

Ooookay... Wtf? That's a bit too far on the opposite side of the spectrum! Don't want hotkeys, don't want that.

Seen in motion, makes more since... Thing is this was back when the design was going to basically be console driven. Interiors, stations (science , medical, tactical), NPCs walking about, multi player bridge crew...ETC.. yada.

You know, what most people expected a ST MMO to be.

That might be an interesting minigame.

Basically what it was.,

[Yoru]

As far as the UI, they had at one time contracted the guy who originally created the LACARS interface, he even went as far as creating a shock wave version that showed how one would use it to manage plasma flow ETC to the warp core, it was awesome...I don't know how this fits in any more, as i supect you will now just need to his "Reverse plasma flow rank 2".

Found some still, but they have removed the Shockwave from the site.

(snip)

I'll give you one guess as to why it was "at one time" instead of "currently." It's also the answer to "why shouldn't you let Star Trek nerds make decisions?"

[Mrbloodworth]

As far as the UI, they had at one time contracted the guy who originally created the LACARS interface, he even went as far as creating a shock wave version that showed how one would use it to manage plasma flow ETC to the warp core, it was awesome...I don't know how this fits in any more, as i supect you will now just need to his "Reverse plasma flow rank 2".

Found some still, but they have removed the Shockwave from the site.

(snip)

I'll give you one guess as to why it was "at one time" instead of "currently." It's also the answer to "why shouldn't you let Star Trek nerds make decisions?"

I really don't think it would have been as complicated as people think. As far as i know, Puzzle pirates is more complicated than this was going to be. I agree, making it require a star fleet diploma would have been dumb... i don't think anyone is thinking it would be a good idea.

[tmp]

Not only that, looks like they're raping the cartoony WoW graphics also (more like old school EnB though really).  (sigh)
They talk about photorealistic graphics in the interview like it's the second coming of the bubonic plague.  Are they really that stupid?  While virtually every other game engine is pushing high-end and photorealism (including the game they cancelled - GnH), these guys are backpeddling.  And it's just because they wanted to do something different from prior ST games?  rubbish

It's not exactly backpedalling, stylized graphics do make sense if you want to stress differences between different alien races vs "this is a guy with piece of plastic on his forehead". And just becayse engine can do realistic graphics doesn't mean it *needs* to, in order to make well working and visually coherent game -- vide TF2?

[Typhon]

I keep giggling about what a disaster it would be if you needed a full compliment of crewmen before you could take your ship out of dock.

Smirk: Captain LFC (looking for crew)
Snot: Science officer LFS (looking for ship)!
Scotchy: Engineer LFS!
Smirk: ok Snot and Scotchy, you onboard.  Captain LFC: comms, med and red shirt.
... (awhile later)
Smirk: Ok! all we need is a red shirt and we can go!  LFRS! (looking for red shirt)

lol, of course, no one wants to play a red shirt

Edit: a "Caption" is different then a "Captain"

[Xerapis]

I would TOTALLY play a red shirt.

[Ghambit]

Not only that, looks like they're raping the cartoony WoW graphics also (more like old school EnB though really).  (sigh)
They talk about photorealistic graphics in the interview like it's the second coming of the bubonic plague.  Are they really that stupid?  While virtually every other game engine is pushing high-end and photorealism (including the game they cancelled - GnH), these guys are backpeddling.  And it's just because they wanted to do something different from prior ST games?  rubbish

It's not exactly backpedalling, stylized graphics do make sense if you want to stress differences between different alien races vs "this is a guy with piece of plastic on his forehead". And just becayse engine can do realistic graphics doesn't mean it *needs* to, in order to make well working and visually coherent game -- vide TF2?

So you're saying in the 24th century they dont know how to tell differences between aliens at a distance?  Not only that, you're saying they should shoot first and ask questions later?  

STO needed to be immersive, not arcadey (although they're not mutually dependent).   All the decisions being made here are being done at the head office, not at the designers' round table.  If you remember, most of the people doing the work dont really like the direction the game is going.  Graphically, it's no exception and mediocre at best.  I'll hold out for now until we see more of the artwork, but it's not very promising so far.

To go back to the stylized graphics argument (in case people dont feel my first statement);  in the way they justify using it for aliens in STO, they say it's so they can "tell aliens apart."  What this means is, there's no mechanism in place for you to figure this out on your own... no tricorder, no futuristic binoculars, no zoomable vision, no querying, etc.  It's the lazy man's way for target recognition and gives them a quick out to make a bland game.  So yeah, we're using playable looney tunes so we can tell differences between Bajorans and Humans easier?

Also, rather the re-stylizing the game into something no one wants, why not just make the extra effort, apply a few more polygons and model the aliens correctly?

[Venkman]

I think it's funny how this discussion continues when we know that due to recent events, there's really nothing at all to talk about (maybe yet, maybe not at all). I'm personally very happy STO is likely going away. There is no other IP that can as inspire retarded roundtables of pew pew geekness on a level with SWG, and I am for one so very very happy anything that touches upon that game is automatically Den'd. STO would be like that, no matter how it launched, and no matter how stunningly and shockingly mediocre it'd end up being. ST itself is much more about the debates than the actual IP, and we don't need that noise at a time when real developers are off making games that'll actually launch.

[tmp]

So you're saying in the 24th century they dont know how to tell differences between aliens at a distance?  Not only that, you're saying they should shoot first and ask questions later?

No, am saying in 21st century a few pixels large blob on computer screen doesn't show enough details to tell apart guy with long pointy ears and bad haircut from one that is lacking either. As opposed to seeing both of them on tv screen when they are placed conveniently near and in your face.

I'm also saying photorealism isn't the one and only way to advance computer game graphics, hence going different route isn't automatically backpedalling.

To go back to the stylized graphics argument (in case people dont feel my first statement);  in the way they justify using it for aliens in STO, they say it's so they can "tell aliens apart."  What this means is, there's no mechanism in place for you to figure this out on your own... no tricorder, no futuristic binoculars, no zoomable vision, no querying, etc.  It's the lazy man's way for target recognition and gives them a quick out to make a bland game.  So yeah, we're using playable looney tunes so we can tell differences between Bajorans and Humans easier?

In a nutshell yes, they are making characters varied enough on their own so you don't need crutch of the UI to tell you stuff you would be able to see yourself if it wasn't for technological shortcomings of 21st century hardware and software. Playing the UI = less fun than playing the game.

Also, rather the re-stylizing the game into something no one wants, why not just make the extra effort, apply a few more polygons and model the aliens correctly?

Because thousand polygons is still as unrecognizable as couple dozens of them, when viewed from distance that makes them all the size of your thumb. For that matter, it's probably less recognizable than good texture on the low polygon stuff.

[UnSub]

Ghambit - "Gods and Heroes" and "photorealism" do not belong in the same sentence unless separated by a resounding negative.

[Ghambit]

Ghambit - "Gods and Heroes" and "photorealism" do not belong in the same sentence unless separated by a resounding negative.

LoL, you have a point there.  They "intended" photorealism per their marketing, but didnt really achieve it.  Granted, the game wasnt actually finished either was it.  Also, they changed graphical "ideals" a few times with that game,  just like they're doing with STO.
Some of the stuff in GnH even in early beta form was actually quite pretty though, and not cartoony.  Some of the stuff was a horrible attempt, like they WANTED photorealism, but just didnt quite get there (sorta all or nothing).

I got another question though, is the art direction from this article:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060221/pieragostini_01.shtml  going to make it into the game?  Or is this new art "casual" direction going permeate everything?

[Venkman]

Just assume nothing is coming. It's easier on the brain than trying to guess what they are thinking this week.

[Ghambit]

Just assume nothing is coming. It's easier on the brain than trying to guess what they are thinking this week.

good advice

(now back to my own design for STO)

[stray]

I don't think they can be called hotkeys when it's all that's on the screen.

I mean the other screen shot (with the foozle whacking and hotkeys). Don't want that.

And I don't want that esoteric shit in the second screenshot either.

[HaemishM]

Going for "photorealism" on a Star Trek game is a bit ironic. 

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

[Murgos]

Going for "photorealism" on a Star Trek game is a bit ironic. 

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

So you are saying that pirates, or the lack thereof, are the main cause of global warming?

[Mrbloodworth]

Going for "photorealism" on a Star Trek game is a bit ironic. 

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

EQ2 is still heavily stylized, i would not call it photorealism.

[tmp]

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

Wow doesn't run on shit pile and kitchen sink because it's stylized, it's stylized because it was designed to run on the shit pile and that was about the only way to hide it.

The other "stylized" games totally miss this point if it's indeed their reason to go that route, given how their hardware requirements go nowhere near as low WoW gets theirs.

[HaemishM]

The other "stylized" games totally miss this point if it's indeed their reason to go that route, given how their hardware requirements go nowhere near as low WoW gets theirs.

Well, I never said STO's team was competent, because I think their press releases speak for themselves in that regard.

[Mrbloodworth]

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

Wow doesn't run on shit pile and kitchen sink because it's stylized, it's stylized because it was designed to run on the shit pile and that was about the only way to hide it.

The other "stylized" games totally miss this point if it's indeed their reason to go that route, given how their hardware requirements go nowhere near as low WoW gets theirs.

Its the same look feel and construction as the RTS games. Nothing more, or less. Its the look the franchise was based on, and it was low-poly becouse it was an RTS. They just continued it.

[Venkman]

Going for "photorealism" on a Star Trek game is a bit ironic. 

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

EQ2 is still heavily stylized, i would not call it photorealism.

EQ2 became stylized, but it didn't really launch that way. They were trying buy-a-new-computer "photoreal", trying to pull the "they do it in the FPS genre" message, probably as a way to gain promotional cred with nVidia (which you'll recall had a fullscreen presence in the intro sequence of EQ2 as well as a logo on some loading screens). This did not endear them to people. It didn't work for VG either. And worse, WoW launched at what amounts to the same time (three weeks later) and would work on the hand-me-down machine you were about to give to your Aunt.

But for the same reason the artistic style of WoW didn't make it work on low end machines by itself, EQ2 did not change to a more stylized format to work on low end machines. They changed more likely because the world was brown and ugly, and the characters not inspired.

[Mrbloodworth]

Going for "photorealism" on a Star Trek game is a bit ironic. 

But really, I'm sure they are ACTUALLY going after the stylized look for the same reason I've suggested other games do. WoW did it. By that I mean, WoW was able to be run on a whole host of shitty, outdated, old computers and it sold a quadrillion copies. EQ2 tried the photorealism and never even reached EQ1 numbers. You do the math.

EQ2 is still heavily stylized, i would not call it photorealism.

EQ2 became stylized, but it didn't really launch that way. They were trying buy-a-new-computer "photoreal", trying to pull the "they do it in the FPS genre" message, probably as a way to gain promotional cred with nVidia (which you'll recall had a fullscreen presence in the intro sequence of EQ2 as well as a logo on some loading screens). This did not endear them to people. It didn't work for VG either. And worse, WoW launched at what amounts to the same time (three weeks later) and would work on the hand-me-down machine you were about to give to your Aunt.

But for the same reason the artistic style of WoW didn't make it work on low end machines by itself, EQ2 did not change to a more stylized format to work on low end machines. They changed more likely because the world was brown and ugly, and the characters not inspired.

I recall the game always being stylized (Not even counting the asian version).  Look to assassins creed for photorealism.

This isn't Photorealism:



This is:



Eq2's players have always been very Mannequin like, or Barby like..very stylized (look at the proportions of the player models). While that stylization takes many hints from the real world..its a very stylized game. Photorealism isn't only about textures, its also about proportions, and color.

Honestly, i cant think of a MMO thats isn't stylized.

[Venkman]

Err, those games are separated by just a few years. ;)

I didn't say EQ2 achieved photoreal though. I said that's what they seemed to be trying for, both in style and by using technology to drive for it. Compare that screenshot to anything similar from WoW or Dungeon Runners.

[Mrbloodworth]

Err, those games are separated by just a few years. ;)

I didn't say EQ2 achieved photoreal though. I said that's what they seemed to be trying for, both in style and by using technology to drive for it. Compare that screenshot to anything similar from WoW or Dungeon Runners.

Yeah, i know. Years. But my comparison wasn't about TECH, its about technique.

I understand what you are saying. eq2 was some sort of stylized realism? Can we go with that? lol.

[Nebu]

What is the second screenshot from?  That looks fantastic.

[Mrbloodworth]

What is the second screenshot from.  That looks fantastic.

Assassins creed.

[HaemishM]

Err, those games are separated by just a few years. ;)

I didn't say EQ2 achieved photoreal though. I said that's what they seemed to be trying for, both in style and by using technology to drive for it. Compare that screenshot to anything similar from WoW or Dungeon Runners.

Yeah, i know. Years. But my comparison wasn't about TECH, its about technique.

I understand what you are saying. eq2 was some sort of stylized realism? Can we go with that? lol.

EQ2 devs in the run up to release HARPED ON the fact they were going for super photorealism, that they wanted to make the world immersive by making it as photorealistic as possible. Now obviously, they failed, not the least of which is because their models were terribly plastic, but also because the tech didn't exist to do Assassin's Creed type of stuff.

But they sure did try.

[Mrbloodworth]

Err, those games are separated by just a few years. ;)

I didn't say EQ2 achieved photoreal though. I said that's what they seemed to be trying for, both in style and by using technology to drive for it. Compare that screenshot to anything similar from WoW or Dungeon Runners.

Yeah, i know. Years. But my comparison wasn't about TECH, its about technique.

I understand what you are saying. eq2 was some sort of stylized realism? Can we go with that? lol.

EQ2 devs in the run up to release HARPED ON the fact they were going for super photorealism, that they wanted to make the world immersive by making it as photorealistic as possible. Now obviously, they failed, not the least of which is because their models were terribly plastic, but also because the tech didn't exist to do Assassin's Creed type of stuff.

But they sure did try.

Tech has little to do with it. Compare the models. Look at her eyes.Ask any woman about the hips in that game...look at the skin tones... I understand that Tech was a problem back then...but there is some hard core stylization going on there. There were game put out at the same time that were not styleised, and did approach photorealism.

Trying to find something more in its time frame, that is a MMO , that is more photo realistic, and have very little stylization.

I post this:




Point being, its all in the art, and while i agree eq2 was incorporating elements of photorealism, its a very stylized game. Its all in the art work.

Ultimitly, i'm not sure i can explain myself in type on this subject..

[HaemishM]

No, I understand what you are saying, that it ends up looking stylized. There's a very good explanation for this, and one that was floated around about the the time the EQ2 screenshots were coming out.

The EQ2 creature model artists (at least the ones on release) sucked ass. Which they did.

[Mrbloodworth]

No, I understand what you are saying, that it ends up looking stylized. There's a very good explanation for this, and one that was floated around about the the time the EQ2 screenshots were coming out.

The EQ2 creature model artists (at least the ones on release) sucked ass. Which they did.

Well, none of this discussion i am having is in any way knocking eq2's art, in fact while playing it at time i was really impressed. To be honest, lets remove the depth of field and per pixel lighting from assassins creed. What you are left with is some of the same tech* that eq2 uses, the difference is in the art direction, and the art its self.


*That being off the top of my head, Color, bump, specularity, and normal mapping, dynamic shadows, bloom (We can skip max texture resolution, as im sure AC uses very large texture sizes).. Please correct me if i'm wrong here, but i recall reading that the SWG engine is the same used for eq2, with modification's.

[HaemishM]

EQ2 got better, both artistically and as art design. But the original player models, hell even the Asian ones, really do blow, and a large part of it is the way they chose to create those models when trying to go for photorealism.

But this is a tangent. Not going for ULTRA OMG PHOTOSREALIST style for STO is a good idea, especially if they want more than a niche title. Having lower system requirements just opens up the potential audience.

[Mrbloodworth]

Not going for ULTRA OMG PHOTOSREALIST style for STO is a good idea, especially if they want more than a niche title. Having lower system requirements just opens up the potential audience.

Yeah, i agree, most times, the real world, and its imagery is rather boring (Compared to stylized). I really enjoy a definitive style to game and art. May be the surrealist in me.

[HaemishM]

Just remember, Quake says Reality is brown.

[Mrbloodworth]

Just remember, Quake says Reality is brown.

There is a half truth to that. lol.