Star Trek Online - "Boldly going where Everyone has gone before"

[Ghambit]

Well, I'm going to move my future game-design discussions to the proper sub-forum.  I've actually already started charting out how I'd design STO, as I know some others here have as well.  What I've found these past few evenings (sifting through game engines and endless .pdfs of star trek lore) is that like many of the prophets here have said: "it's a BITCH of a license to write a game for."  I've pulled my hair out a few times, but I think I'm onto something and quite honestly... I KNOW it could work and be a blockbuster.  It might take a while for people to swallow the whole load, but the gag reflex goes away after a while and they begin to like it.       Just like the IP at its origin.

[UnSub]

It might take a while for people to swallow the whole load, but the gag reflex goes away after a while and they begin to like it.   

Make sure you use that exact quote, along with "I'm going to make you my bitch", in any marketing / PR you do.

[UnSub]

Plus: sandboxes suck. There, I said it.

#1 PC game of all time beyotch.

Most successful car of all time: Toyota Corolla



Most successful movie of all time: Titanic



But please, continue on with your completely unretarded suggestion that popularity equals quality.

[Ghambit]

It might take a while for people to swallow the whole load, but the gag reflex goes away after a while and they begin to like it.   

Make sure you use that exact quote, along with "I'm going to make you my bitch", in any marketing / PR you do.

For a game that's a "bitch of a license," making people my bitches seems like the obvious solution... hence the gag reflex

-Pimps up Hoes Down

[geldonyetich2]

I think that, deep down, we all like Sandboxes.  The trouble is, just like any other game, we would like our sandboxes to be fun.  When you focus too much on "open-ended" and forget to add the "game", you breed another sandbox hater.

[Nerf]

So far, you're the only person who thinks this is a good idea Ghambit, and what's even funnier, is that you describe the gameplay as rape.

Think about that for a minute, you think that people are going to pay you to be raped, and it's going to be HUGE!

Keep up the good work, I've got a 20 year old fanual (thats a fan-manual) on warp core design and how to use that nifty butane torch to reconfigure plasma ducts so I can be l33t in your new game.

[eldaec]

Permadeath in Star Trek would be against the lore anyhow.

This guy disagrees.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise", the USS Enterprise-C travels into the future in the midst of defending a Klingon colony from Romulan attack, creating an alternate timeline in which the Federation and Klingon Empire are at war, and in which Yar did not die on Vagra II.[1] Learning from Guinan that she died a senseless death in the normal timeline, Yar opts to return to the past aboard the Enterprise-C.[1] There, she is captured and becomes consort to a Romulan general in order to spare her fellow survivors' lives.[1] She later bears a child, Sela, also played by Crosby. Yar is later executed by the Romulans. OR IS SHE?[1]

This guy too.

NPC, hence the endless supply.

[Baldrake]

But please, continue on with your completely unretarded suggestion that popularity equals quality.

Umm, to be accurate, I think he'd be suggesting that popularity correlates with quality, not equals quality.

But more to the point, surely you aren't suggesting that the Corolla is a crap car and Titanic was a crap movie? They may not be to your taste (and in the case of Titanic, not mine either), but for the market they were aimed at, they are top notch product.

Anyway, his point is, there can be successful and fun sandboxes if they're done right. And surely you can't be arguing against that?

[Ghambit]

So far, you're the only person who thinks this is a good idea Ghambit, and what's even funnier, is that you describe the gameplay as rape.

Think about that for a minute, you think that people are going to pay you to be raped, and it's going to be HUGE!

Keep up the good work, I've got a 20 year old fanual (thats a fan-manual) on warp core design and how to use that nifty butane torch to reconfigure plasma ducts so I can be l33t in your new game.

What's NOT funny is you chose to twist my words into a violent act.  Nowhere did I refer to rape.  I referred to pimps and hoes.  
Like a good pimp I would bring the best content and tools to my hoes to make it happen and see the fruits of their labor.   Pimps are enablers, hoes are enablees.  Today's gaming unfortunately is more like the Pied Piper in a mentally challenged daycare center.  Given the choice, I'd rather be an enabling Pimp rather than a child-kidnapping Pedophile.

Lastly, you assume I want to cater to EVERYONE.  Fact is.. I dont.  Why?  Because for this IP it's unnecessarily destructive.  Trekkers are by FAR the largest fan base in the world.  This has been proven by the mere fact that they'll eat up all the gaming crap with the Star Trek logo on it no matter how good it is (devs know this, so they make crap).  If someone simply came out with a game that Trekkers alone would REALLY love, they'd in fact probably have the #1 MMO.

Why did SWG fail?  Because they forgot the above fact with regards to their own IP... they sold out to the mass market and ended up tanking their game.

<sigh>

Why is it in this forum people love to embrace mediocrity and the status quo?  Cynicism should breed innovation, not stagnation.  Everyone wants to know how on God's green earth a decent ST MMO would be made, well... I'm TELLING you how.  It sure as hell aint following the current gaming "model."  Which is why many people say it's impossible.

The only way to boldly go where no one has gone is to let the players do it themselves, not have their hands held.  Make a randomized sandbox galaxy (with known space fleshed out slightly) and unleash the hounds.

Everyone knows that to do STO any other way properly would mean a HUGE time and money sink (properly doesnt mean a lot of initial box-sales).  Even if the game gets completed, by the time it's RELEASED it'll already be obsolete and so much of a nightmare as to be un-expansable.... both because of shear size and money-sink.  And one thing STO should be is adaptive.

To create real masterpieces in any reasonable timeframe you have to enable the masses while keeping them immersed.  This fits perfectly with Trek's grand "Social Experiment" along with its Tech.  Why go the opposite direction?

[Typhon]

To create real masterpieces in any reasonable timeframe you have to enable the masses while keeping them immersed.  This fits perfectly with Trek's grand "Social Experiment" along with its Tech.  Why go the opposite direction?

Simple, true-so-far answer: Because player-created content is crap.
Less simple, wait-and-see answer: this experiment is being tried yet again, it's caled "Metaplace", and it doesn't have an expensive IP weighing it down.

[Murgos]

Simple, true-so-far answer: Because *most* player-created content is crap.

But the point still stands, if you are going to rely on player user created content you will have to sift the wheat from the chaff in a timely manner to keep the majority interested.  If 98% of what Joe and Sue Ellen Sixpack encounter in your user content created experience is crapola don't expect them to keep forking over cash.

[Ghambit]

You guys are being too cut and dry here.  There's a difference between something like Metaplace and something like NWN, Ryzom, or even SWG.  They all have/had varying degrees of Sandbox.  Obviously, you'd have elements of control in your Sandbox... we're not talking carte blanche to run the place.

And ultimately, if players dont like certain user-created content.. they dont necessarily have to take place in it, buy it, or exist among it.  Space has an advantage in that well... it has lots of uhhh.. SPACE
Also, a Sandbox is only as good as the tools given to play in it.

[Murgos]

And ultimately, if players dont like certain user-created content.. they dont necessarily have to take place in it, buy it, or exist among it.  Space has an advantage in that well... it has lots of uhhh.. SPACE

Too much SPACE is not a good thing.  Like I said, unless they whoever is aggressive at making sure the good stuff is promoted and the crap is buried the vast majority aren't going to stick around long enough to 'find teh funz'.  Most people buy games because they expect them to be fun right away, not after research.

[Reg]

I swear if this new guy starts chirping about "risk versus reward" my goddam head is going to explode.

[Akkori]

People scoff at player created content too quickly. If there are 100k sub's, I wouldn't be surprised if at least a hundred of them have the vision, organization, and tenacity to create *some* kind of interesting quest, dungeon, story-arc, etc... Even a single, simple 2-hour story arc is significant when there is the potential to have 200,000 playing hours or so to come out of it. Player created textures and skin's would add to visual variety, etc. Yeah, there will be crap, but with a system in place to filter it out, I don't think people will notice it any more than they do the stupid ass commercials on tv.

And how about this for something never done before: What if someone were to write a client similar to the SETI@Home, except this one would churn out fully rendered 3d terrain? World size seems to be limited by rendering times, but if 100k players gave over a nominal % of their CPU cycles while they played that were to be used for this job, it could end up with some pretty big spaces!

[Ghambit]

People scoff at player created content too quickly. If there are 100k sub's, I wouldn't be surprised if at least a hundred of them have the vision, organization, and tenacity to create *some* kind of interesting quest, dungeon, story-arc, etc... Even a single, simple 2-hour story arc is significant when there is the potential to have 200,000 playing hours or so to come out of it. Player created textures and skin's would add to visual variety, etc. Yeah, there will be crap, but with a system in place to filter it out, I don't think people will notice it any more than they do the stupid ass commercials on tv.

And how about this for something never done before: What if someone were to write a client similar to the SETI@Home, except this one would churn out fully rendered 3d terrain? World size seems to be limited by rendering times, but if 100k players gave over a nominal % of their CPU cycles while they played that were to be used for this job, it could end up with some pretty big spaces!

you are getting warm my friend..   
it's not exactly what I was getting at... but close with both points.  (i'm not gonna jump this thread with that element of game design [in re: networked renders] right now though)

The thing with user-content is you dont necessarily have to police it at all if you give the players a choice in participating in it (ala NWN).  Aside from that, there is the "Continuum" I mentioned earlier.  The function of the "Q" metagame is not only to give the greater Sandbox, but to create built-in accountability. (I thought I made that part clear)  There is no need to hire someone to police ALL the content, when the content creators can rate most of it themselves.  The "Starfleet" element is charged with a similar task as it relates to misison creation, resource management and creation, etc.  Ultimately, you can police content devwise as much as you want... but it shouldnt really be a large part of the pipeline.

<sigh>
dammit, it's sunday and I should be relaxing

[Murgos]

I contribute exactly the way your talking about.  I've done mods for Morrowind and Oblivion.  Models, textures, little quests and etc...

99% of it [user created content] is crap.  Oblivion and Morrowind are good-to-great games without the input of the mod community.  Relying on the mod community is a HUGE mistake.

Community additions are fine as bonus above and beyond the existing game, not instead of.

[Zane0]

If you want even the slightest bit of coherence in gameplay, or atmosphere, or narrative, then user created content in the context of an MMO will not not not work; the result will be an unpolicable garbled mish-mash. Second Life is a good example. It's good at what it does, but it's not trying to be anything beyond a blank slate.

Star Trek as a synthesis of EvE with perhaps structured RvR and some concessions to WoW PvE could be both interesting and successful, but I very much doubt we will see either of these (but particularly the former..)

[Slyfeind]

Anyway, his point is, there can be successful and fun sandboxes if they're done right. And surely you can't be arguing against that?

Yeah, I like pumping the bilge in Puzzle Pirates. I don't think I'd like pumping bilges in real life. You can make a sucky sandbox, just as you can make a sucky DIKU.

Sandbox is a sucky term, anyway. What do we mean by that? Do we mean a game where the content is boring? Or can it be fun, but correlate to otherwise boring real life activities? (Like the aforementioned bilge pumps of Puzzle Pirates.) "Worldy" games are typically games with a bunch of minigames to them, while "gamey" games have fewer minigames. More depth can be ascribed to the "gamey" than the "worldy." A Tale in the Desert has Charcoal, Flax, Beer Brewing, Paint Mixing, Vegetable Farming, and hundreds more; all separate games in their own right, but very simple games. World of Warcraft has maybe six or seven games; PvP, Raiding, Harvesting, Crafting (only one type of crafting game here, regardless of the different things it produces), and whatnot, but those games are much deeper than ATITD's.

[Akkori]

I've never seen a deeper crafting system than ATitD. It's too much for me even. Overwhelming. But that's good It lets us make choices in what we want to do. (It's only failure IMHO is that there should be limits to what a character can learn) Apparently the new Beast Master in SWG took the old BE plus CH and made it more complex. Complicated is a good *option* in a game. Sadly, all combat in the few MMO's I've played are all pretty much button mashing monkey-fare. Phasers from ST would fit in perfectly. Hell, they probably were the inspiration for modern (sic!) MMO's.
Give us a game with all the mini-games you can stuff in there, and make the core few games like combat (sigh!) good, and you have a winner.

[Nerf]

It might take a while for people to swallow the whole load, but the gag reflex goes away after a while and they begin to like it.   

You're right, that doesn't sound like rape at all.
Also, you really need to pick which market you're going for.  "Small niche title" != "Blockbuster", so if you're trying to argue that you don't want this to appeal to everyone, don't tell us how it's going make WoW subs look like it failed.

[Ratman_tf]

Plus: sandboxes suck. There, I said it.

#1 PC game of all time beyotch.

Most successful car of all time: Toyota Corolla



Most successful movie of all time: Titanic



But please, continue on with your completely unretarded suggestion that popularity equals quality.

Sims 2 was popular because it was a fun, quality game. It was a game idea that caught it's audience square in the gut. How many games have the kind of add-ons and expansions like Sims?

Sandboxes rock, and a lot of people seem to agree with their wallets. Posting pictures of cars and movie posters probably won't change that fact...

[UnSub]

I posted the two pictures that correspond with the Sims as victories of mediocrity. The Corolla isn't a bad car, but you aren't going to boasting to your friends that you bought one; ditto the Sims. Plus if that's your best example of a sandbox, well, the MMO version of it never really took off. Given that we are talking about MMO sandboxes, not single player ones (which aren't bound by the same rules) I think we aren't on the same page.

Geld gets it right - a little sandbox is fine when covered with a healthy heaping of game. I enjoy dressing up my virtual dolls and decorating virtual houses as much as the next MMO-er. However, large open sandboxes that require players to drive things forward tend not to work unless there are other things driving it (i.e. money (Second Life) or power (EVE)).

[Venkman]

It all comes back to what's most important first. You can dress up a virtual sandbox all you want, but if combat isn't fun and the game doesnt' provide direction for players, you're not going to hit mass success... unless you're shooting for tweens with a browser-based experience ;)

[Ratman_tf]

I posted the two pictures that correspond with the Sims as victories of mediocrity. The Corolla isn't a bad car, but you aren't going to boasting to your friends that you bought one; ditto the Sims. Plus if that's your best example of a sandbox, well, the MMO version of it never really took off. Given that we are talking about MMO sandboxes, not single player ones (which aren't bound by the same rules) I think we aren't on the same page.

Geld gets it right - a little sandbox is fine when covered with a healthy heaping of game. I enjoy dressing up my virtual dolls and decorating virtual houses as much as the next MMO-er. However, large open sandboxes that require players to drive things forward tend not to work unless there are other things driving it (i.e. money (Second Life) or power (EVE)).

Definitley. Raph (bless his good intentioned heart) seemed with UO and SWG to be inclinced to have the players create their own content out of whole cloth. I think player created content can be a really great thing, if it's channeled through tools that don't let them make penis statues and Monty Haul dungeons.

[Kirth]

As an aside, is there any indication on how the rumored 'franchise reboot' will affect this development?

As I understand it the new movie that is set when Kirk was younger (Fresh out of the acedemy?), and the premise is that due to some time travelers the future is changed and basically everything that is canon so far is being re-written. This may be an oversimplification of the plot or just internet rumor. But if the IP story takes a turn one way but the game is set in the old storyline will it affect how fans will respond. 

[Oban]

Wow, seriously?

When Spock (Leonard Nimoy) learns of a villainous Romulan's (Eric Bana) revenge plot to execute a young Captain James T. Kirk (Chris Pine) via Time travel, he races to the rescue. In meeting Spock of the past (Zachary Quinto), Spock hopes to teach his younger self to save his future best friend's life. With the help of Scotty (Simon Pegg), Chekov (Antoh Yelchin), Uhura (Zoe Saldana), Sulu (John Cho), and Captain Christopher Pike (Bruce Greenwood), Spock and Kirk must stop the enemy before history is dangerously altered.  Written by J. T. Curcio

Didn't they learn from the fuck-up that was Enterprise?

[Ratman_tf]

Wow, seriously?

When Spock (Leonard Nimoy) learns of a villainous Romulan's (Eric Bana) revenge plot to execute a young Captain James T. Kirk (Chris Pine) via Time travel, he races to the rescue. In meeting Spock of the past (Zachary Quinto), Spock hopes to teach his younger self to save his future best friend's life. With the help of Scotty (Simon Pegg), Chekov (Antoh Yelchin), Uhura (Zoe Saldana), Sulu (John Cho), and Captain Christopher Pike (Bruce Greenwood), Spock and Kirk must stop the enemy before history is dangerously altered.  Written by J. T. Curcio

Didn't they learn from the fuck-up that was Enterprise?

Can we go back in time and bitchslap the writers?

[Miasma]

Despite the fact that I usually think "back in time/holodeck" episodes only get created when the writers are desperate and out of ideas Star Trek IV is still my favorite so I won't dismiss this premise out of hand.  I haven't been following the new movie though, I only found out they were making it from this thread and I'm a bit confused.  I thought the JJ Abrams guy was making this but that says it was written by someone named Curcio, so which is it?

I also heard over my guild's vent that Shatner is unhappy he doesn't have a large role...

[Mrbloodworth]

Despite the fact that I usually think "back in time/holodeck" episodes only get created when the writers are desperate and out of ideas Star Trek IV is still my favorite so I won't dismiss this premise out of hand.  I haven't been following the new movie though, I only found out they were making it from this thread and I'm a bit confused.  I thought the JJ Abrams guy was making this but that says it was written by someone named Curcio, so which is it?

I also heard over my guild's vent that Shatner is unhappy he doesn't have a large role...

IMDB

[palmer_eldritch]

Despite the fact that I usually think "back in time/holodeck" episodes only get created when the writers are desperate and out of ideas Star Trek IV is still my favorite so I won't dismiss this premise out of hand.  I haven't been following the new movie though, I only found out they were making it from this thread and I'm a bit confused.  I thought the JJ Abrams guy was making this but that says it was written by someone named Curcio, so which is it?

I also heard over my guild's vent that Shatner is unhappy he doesn't have a large role...

Shatner had a moan about it - there's a story here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/10/26/people.williamshatner.ap/

Abrams apparently said he would like to include Shatner but doesn't feel he can, as he would only want him as Kirk and there's no way he can see to do it that would make sense. I don't have a link for that, I just remember reading it in a magazine.

[stray]

I'm looking forward to Bana as a Romulan.. Didn't even know he was in it.

[Venimor]

So far, you're the only person who thinks this is a good idea Ghambit, and what's even funnier, is that you describe the gameplay as rape.

Think about that for a minute, you think that people are going to pay you to be raped, and it's going to be HUGE!

Keep up the good work, I've got a 20 year old fanual (thats a fan-manual) on warp core design and how to use that nifty butane torch to reconfigure plasma ducts so I can be l33t in your new game.

What's NOT funny is you chose to twist my words into a violent act.  Nowhere did I refer to rape.  I referred to pimps and hoes.  
Like a good pimp I would bring the best content and tools to my hoes to make it happen and see the fruits of their labor.   Pimps are enablers, hoes are enablees.  Today's gaming unfortunately is more like the Pied Piper in a mentally challenged daycare center.  Given the choice, I'd rather be an enabling Pimp rather than a child-kidnapping Pedophile.

Lastly, you assume I want to cater to EVERYONE.  Fact is.. I dont.  Why?  Because for this IP it's unnecessarily destructive.  Trekkers are by FAR the largest fan base in the world.  This has been proven by the mere fact that they'll eat up all the gaming crap with the Star Trek logo on it no matter how good it is (devs know this, so they make crap).  If someone simply came out with a game that Trekkers alone would REALLY love, they'd in fact probably have the #1 MMO.

Why did SWG fail?  Because they forgot the above fact with regards to their own IP... they sold out to the mass market and ended up tanking their game.

<sigh>

Why is it in this forum people love to embrace mediocrity and the status quo?  Cynicism should breed innovation, not stagnation.  Everyone wants to know how on God's green earth a decent ST MMO would be made, well... I'm TELLING you how.  It sure as hell aint following the current gaming "model."  Which is why many people say it's impossible.

The only way to boldly go where no one has gone is to let the players do it themselves, not have their hands held.  Make a randomized sandbox galaxy (with known space fleshed out slightly) and unleash the hounds.

Everyone knows that to do STO any other way properly would mean a HUGE time and money sink (properly doesnt mean a lot of initial box-sales).  Even if the game gets completed, by the time it's RELEASED it'll already be obsolete and so much of a nightmare as to be un-expansable.... both because of shear size and money-sink.  And one thing STO should be is adaptive.

To create real masterpieces in any reasonable timeframe you have to enable the masses while keeping them immersed.  This fits perfectly with Trek's grand "Social Experiment" along with its Tech.  Why go the opposite direction?

Where to begin... where to begin...

"Lastly, you assume I want to cater to EVERYONE.  Fact is.. I dont.  Why?  Because for this IP it's unnecessarily destructive.  Trekkers are by FAR the largest fan base in the world.  This has been proven by the mere fact that they'll eat up all the gaming crap with the Star Trek logo on it no matter how good it is (devs know this, so they make crap).  If someone simply came out with a game that Trekkers alone would REALLY love, they'd in fact probably have the #1 MMO."

The idea that Trekkers will 'eat up all the gaming crap with the Star Trek logo on it no matter how good it is' is misguided. Klingon Academy sold what, maybe 20,000 copies after Interplay shucked out its entire warchest on it for three years of development? It was a bad game, visionless overdeveloped crap, and the marketplace knew it, and Trekkers stayed away. Just as they stayed away from half-assed attempts to shoehorn wretchedly overcomplicated turn-based boardgames into the RTS format.
Just as they will stay away from whatever MMO ever gets made from this cursed IP.

Trekkers may be a large fan-base, but they are a deeply disaffective and factionalized fanbase. If there were a unified, consistent set of messages and concepts in Trek, I might be inclined to believe what you say about Trekkers being able to support a #1 MMO all by themselves. There's no money in the 24th century; try making a reward system for your MMO around that. Starfleet ships must go through stages of diplomacy before fighting, while Romulan ships can cloak and gank people with plasma torpedoes - try balancing the combat system of your MMO around THAT. I could go on and on, and not only does every single aspect of Trek not only lend itself imperfectly to gaming, but breeds bitter arguments among factionalized clumps of fans who have nothing better to do than quote little bits of inconsistent-but-canonized lore at each other like Talmudic scholars.

Probably not worth exploring the bizarre comment that 'devs know this, so they make crap', except to share my observation that even the lousy game devs come to work every day hoping to do something good and productive with their time. I've never met anyone in this industry who was of this conspiratorial 'let's publish shit-in-a-box and get rich' armchair philosophy that I hear so much about. When shit happens, it generally happens because people are put in positions that exceed their abilities, or it's bad management, lousy vision, poor funding, factionalization within the dev team, outside factors beyond everyone's control, whatever. But it's not because there's this Machiavellian plan to fleece the masses like Eva Peron and sink the work-sweat of a few million noble Trekker gamers into an IRA and a winter home in Cancun.

Your idea for a utopian, player-driven content-creation system is noble, but mad. Chaos on a level unseen since Battlecruiser 3000 would ensue. For every good zone or instance a player came up with, there would be dozens of shitty ones, broken ones, 'I'll have it done in another three weeks, after I'm done with Final Exams, I promise' ones... design of the game would become unplayable quickly, dev would have no power to compel users to alter their content other than simply removing it, it would be a cat-herder's worst nightmare. Then you've got that one genius player out there making the good shit who'll start to expect his cut of the gross profits... There's a word for the process of recruitment, oversight and management it would take to gather together enough talented people to do that job right, and it's called 'hiring'. The project you're describing is ultimately more expensive and a far riskier gamble than the model you're seeking to overthrow, to put it mildly.

I've kept an eye on Trek fans for a long time now, and as long as I've been a fan of the franchise, I've never been that big of a fan of some of the fans. In 1996 I made the mistake of joining a Trek list-serv, and got a big steamy dose of hydrophobic "My imaginary starship is better than your imaginary starship" rants. Fail to please some of these people with a single game design choice, and you've got an entire faction hating you and griefing your project. The politics and interests of Trek fans are all over the map, but they all expect the next Trek project to address their interpretation of Trek. I've watched them take out their fiery wrath on a dev team's forum boards, and it really does go from "I love you guys, keep up the good work" to "OMG I hope you guys get horrible cancer and die in a FIAR" in a matter of minutes. I can't imagine any group infected with that kind of mentality getting very far in designing their own content in a way that ends up professional-caliber. It's bad enough when you have professional devs that can't get along... at least they can shut their mouths from time to time.

You make a user-created Trek MMO, you'll be getting the contextual equivalent of lurid billboard-sized imaginary starship tag .jpgs pasted everywhere. Everyone'll be a bold, manly, square-jawed captain butting heads constantly with every other bold, manly square-jawed captain. Eventually you'll get a few scary, Jonestown-style 'crews' forming with gullible 'enabler' players falling in line behind some authoritarian uber-nerd with control issues. One thing that both the Trek IP and MMO development require is a judicious sense of order, and you do not get that from players, period. Players don't take orders from Starfleet in a timely fashion, if at all, and they certainly don't take direction from a development team (even if it were sensible from a legal standpoint for devs to wade into that territory). It's a tremendous (some would say 'impossible') leap from organizing forty guildies for a raid, to organizing content creation for a top-rate, triple-A MMO.

Please, guys, the idea of a Trek MMO is like the idea of a universal solvent. Please invest time and money in saner, more productive endeavors!

[Kirth]

Despite the fact that I usually think "back in time/holodeck" episodes only get created when the writers are desperate and out of ideas Star Trek IV is still my favorite so I won't dismiss this premise out of hand.  I haven't been following the new movie though, I only found out they were making it from this thread and I'm a bit confused.  I thought the JJ Abrams guy was making this but that says it was written by someone named Curcio, so which is it?

I also heard over my guild's vent that Shatner is unhappy he doesn't have a large role...

Shatner had a moan about it - there's a story here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/10/26/people.williamshatner.ap/

Abrams apparently said he would like to include Shatner but doesn't feel he can, as he would only want him as Kirk and there's no way he can see to do it that would make sense. I don't have a link for that, I just remember reading it in a magazine.

read the last line of that article where he says he was their at the creation and hoped to be their at the re-creation. Seems the story that this is going to be a complete retooling of the series are somewhat true.

[Simond]

Scotty (Simon Pegg),