Patch 2.3 preliminary details

[Morat20]

Things like the dead zone and steady standoff DPS define the class, Blizz won't ever make those go away. Too many mechanics are working against hunters, things that won't change either.

I've never really gotten that. How is the deadzone "defining the class"? What possible reason is there for a Hunter to have a 3 meter area where he can't do damage, at all? (And, to boot, the ONLY thing that works there being a 31 point talent. WTF?).

I don't see it being a balance issue -- I can't see it being unbalanced at all to switch to 0-5melee,6-36/41 ranged. If you feel some shots might get abused, you can certainly set minimum ranges on things like aimed shot to 8 yards.

Threash: 5v5 is the only place a Hunter doesn't suck so bad it's soul-sucking to have him along. And even then, your team would be better off replacing you with a mage of equal skill. Replacing you with a Shaman should have worked fine, but either he sucked or he wasn't specced for DPS, and so couldn't fill your role.

5v5 is the only place you see Hunters in the top teams, and even then their represntation is tied for dead last as opposed to "very obviously dead last".

[caladein]

Things like the dead zone and steady standoff DPS define the class, Blizz won't ever make those go away. Too many mechanics are working against hunters, things that won't change either.

I've never really gotten that. How is the deadzone "defining the class"? What possible reason is there for a Hunter to have a 3 meter area where he can't do damage, at all? (And, to boot, the ONLY thing that works there being a 31 point talent. WTF?).

Auto Attack and Auto Shot are not linked, so a Hunter could dance around 5-6 meters of someone and be able to use both his melee weapon and ranged attacks.

[Morat20]

Auto Attack and Auto Shot are not linked, so a Hunter could dance around 5-6 meters of someone and be able to use both his melee weapon and ranged attacks.

Then...link them? Problem fixed?

Frankly, our melee auto-attack sucks, and our ranged auto-attack isn't that much to write home about. I'm hard pressed to see much advantage in jumping back and forth rather than getting to range, since our biggest "Melee attack" is pretty freakin' lame AND costs too much mana to boot. I mean, sure, you could sort of add in an extra melee attack by dancing like that (if they cooperated by remaining still, and our only root breaks on ANY damage).

But to do that, you'd be stuck using auto-shot,arcane shot (Every 6 seconds), and auto-attack. That's a pathetic damage total compared to being able to use steady-shot and multi-shot reliably.

I honestly don't see how it's to a hunter's benefit to try that, in terms of actual practical results, but if the price for removing the dead zone is linking auto-attack and auto-shot to the same cooldown, count me in. 100% support. I'll sign a petition, make a billboard, and buy a bullhorn.

Although, now that I think about it -- they might be linked now. Hunters automatically switch from auto-shot to auto-attack once a target enters melee range. It's a bit hard to tell if they're really linked, or if Blizzard is just fudging it because of the 3 yard deadzone between ranged and melee, so....

[Fordel]

Things like the dead zone and steady standoff DPS define the class, Blizz won't ever make those go away. Too many mechanics are working against hunters, things that won't change either.

I've never really gotten that. How is the deadzone "defining the class"? What possible reason is there for a Hunter to have a 3 meter area where he can't do damage, at all? (And, to boot, the ONLY thing that works there being a 31 point talent. WTF?).

It "defines the class" the same way 6-Max defines melee classes. It's like asking "why can't a rogue use its specials with throwing daggers 25 yards"? Melee classes get some abilities that work outside of there defined range, Hunters get some as well. The deadzone is the only way to stop autoshoot outside of Lockdown CC, only way to stop most hunter abilities. Hunters don't have to deal with school lock or pushback or interrupts the way the other ranged classes do.

Rooting a rogue/warrior and moving to 30 fucks them over just as much as rooting a hunter and moving to 7, sometimes they have cooldowns to burn that will get them out of that situation, other times, there just done like dinner.

That's just the trade off and niche hunters fill. The same way a rogue gets in the thick of things to be effective, a hunter has to stay out of it to be at it's best.

[Merusk]

You're wrong on push back.  It's also arguable that we have no defense from 8 meters to 0 meters, as our melee is so laughable even pallies can outdps us.  Really, are you that concerned about a hunter's "does 120 damage on next swing, 6s cooldown" raptor strike?  You shouldn't be.  Even if that hunter somehow got Cataclysm's Edge off of Archimonde, his top damage is going to be 1400 every 6s IF he crits.   Scary damage.

Hunters also aren't given the tools that most other classes are given in order to GET to their advantage zone.  No intercept/ cloak/ bubble/ blink/ fear. At best we have wingclip, which does nothing that can't be countered by most classes these days, and traps which are so resisted it's laughable.

If AoC had no stun, we could dance out of warrior melee with wingclip. We can't as it is now.  Charge, hamstring, MS, hunter's fucked.  Perhaps a trap, but even with that, as soon as you're at range again it's another intercept.  We can NOT get out of that 25 yard range once incercepted.  On the off chance wedo, the warrior can simply walk towards us as we stand still to attempt to dps them.  Try and kite in a BG and you just wind-up among another group of hostiles who came up behind you.

Crippling poison weakens us to the point that we can't get out of rogues way.  It's only 10% weaker than wing clip but lasts 2s longer. Even if we could, they can COS off the slow, or the trap.  CoS is powerful to the point of stupidity. 

Right now, Shaman are about the only class I can consistently take one on one.  Everyone else knows our weakness, and the Shaman have similar ones.  We have to stand still to do damage, and that's death in PvP.  Just walk towards us and we're just a body on the field taking up space.  We can get off an instant or demi-instant shot every 6 secs (unless you want to count lolserpent sting. However, I fall for more damage off of the ledge in shatt's portal dome)  So if we want to do anything, it's kite kite kite kite, for a DAMN long time.  We're currently meant to do damage with Autoshot and Steady Shot, both of which are near useless in the arena.

[Threash]

If you respec bm you can beat any class 1 on 1 easily, but obviously duels are not what this game is balanced around.  My 2v2 and 3v3 teams are 1880 and 1804, and i play with undergeared friends to help them get arena points. 

[Merusk]

I keep hearing that, but I AM bm spec, and wars still pwn me and rogues chew me to death before the pet can. Even the big red pet.   Locks/ Mages if I'm red they can die, unless there's a healer.  Then I'm just fucked.  Pallies are impossible to kill in that 15s window.

Even then, as you said these are not duel situations.

Look, I'm willing to concede you're simply better at pvp than I am.  You apparently aren't, and think everything's dandy because you're better.  Were that the case, well you'd be able to pwn as easily as a warrior or lock of equal skill.

Perhaps I just need to roll another lock. Seems that the days of when there were a billion hunters got us to this point, so it's time to return the flavor and just go with the FOTM.

[Threash]

A war shouldnt even touch you, 18 seconds of kiting him over frost trap should be more than enough to kill any of them.  A rogue shouldnt be touching either while you are red.  You are unsnareable, they arent, 18 seconds is more than enough to kill them.  Most people think hunters suck, thats why theres so few of them in top teams, but we really really dont.  We arent warlocks either though so yes it does take some skill but every single team ive played on now firmly believes hunters need no buffs whatsoever.

[Chenghiz]

Yeah, really at least if you only take your opponent into account you should never lose to a rogue or warrior unless you're really outgeared. Frost trap is absolutely absurd for kiting purposes.

[Venkman]

On Mages: Ritual of Refreshment: What does this mean, that we can load Food and Drink into the AH? Or that people in a group will automatically receive it to their inventory? Or that we can go into some EQ1-esque vendor mode to let people just click us and pick it up?

It's a Soul Well, for Food and Water, not that complicated.

If you know what a Soul Well is, sure. I had to look it up. Thanks for the reference.

[Merusk]

You guys sure are getting into a lot of 1v1 situations in your arena.  Wish that were the case for me.   Frost trap kite the war? Sure then the rogue comes up behind and crips you.. or the warlock fears you.. or the mage takes the time to Pyro you to oblivion.

But then, you're still talking 2v2 and I'm still talking 5v5 where I'm getting rocked on a consistent basis.   If I'm not first targeted, then I'm last and still unable to do jack.

[Threash]

Then the question is what is your team doing while you are being targeted? if it takes two people to shut you down then your team has a 4 to 3 advantage.  If you are the first one targeted then your priest should be going nuts with dispels and mana drains, your mage should be alternating sheeps on their dpsers and your warrior should be raping someone.  If they attack me first even if im completely shut down they've already lost, between sheeps, silences, frost trap + entrapment, scatter shot and counterspells i can live more than long enough for the rest of my team to gain the advantage even if i end up dead.  Meanwhile i can still frost trap and mana drain even if im under heavy fire, i might not be able to dps but at least i provide some support for my team.

[Morat20]

You guys sure are getting into a lot of 1v1 situations in your arena.  Wish that were the case for me.   Frost trap kite the war? Sure then the rogue comes up behind and crips you.. or the warlock fears you.. or the mage takes the time to Pyro you to oblivion.

But then, you're still talking 2v2 and I'm still talking 5v5 where I'm getting rocked on a consistent basis.   If I'm not first targeted, then I'm last and still unable to do jack.

Maybe they changed something, but last time I tried that the war intercepted (or charged -- fuck if I know the difference) through the fucking trap. He was on my ass in melee before the trap finished animating. Then I got hamstrung, and nothing I could fucking do would get me to range.

Once we're in melee, it generally takes a stroke of luck (some low-change survival skill proccing), or an act of idiocy on the meleer's part to allow you to get back to range.

Fordel:

It "defines the class" the same way 6-Max defines melee classes. It's like asking "why can't a rogue use its specials with throwing daggers 25 yards"? Melee classes get some abilities that work outside of there defined range, Hunters get some as well. The deadzone is the only way to stop autoshoot outside of Lockdown CC, only way to stop most hunter abilities. Hunters don't have to deal with school lock or pushback or interrupts the way the other ranged classes do.

The deadzone is there to stop autoshot? WTF? I don't think anyone fears our our autoshot.

And yes, we deal with spell pushback (aimed shot, steady shot) and interrupt (volley). It's hardly out fault that volley sucks. Our instances (arcane, multi-shot) are on long cooldowns (6 seconds), so in the BC enviroment our damage is based around a 2second cast time spell with pushback. (Auto-Steady-Auto). Mages do have more pushback problems, but they also have methods of dealing with it (talents and the like), as well as doing a ton more damage.

Our problem in a nutshell is that every melee class has a way to close range on us. We have nothing to GET to range -- nothing that works. Our snares are weaker than melee snares. Our stuns are too short, our traps too worthless, or melee damage easily ignored. Once we're in melee, against an equally skilled opponent we will not regain range, and thus we are dead.

The other ranged classes can lock us down in a variety of ways, and can easily out damage us (our burst DPS is non-existant these days, especially with resiliance-geared opponents) on any reasonable time frame. (If the match is going on longer than 5 minutes, then the numbers might swing our way).

The deadzone is pointless. It's a three yard space that does nothing except allow a handful of classes to nuke us with impunity.

Couple that with arena-design -- pillar huggers seriously fuck us because we're not just having LoS problems, they're generally in our deadzone or into our melee zone if we can see them.

Just for anyone who is not clear on the whole dead zone concept:

0------5m****8m----------------------36/41m

Those "stars" -- the area between 5 meters and 8 meters (or does blizzard do it in yards? Not much of a difference, really) is our deadzone. We have ONE thing that works there, which is "scatter shot" -- a 21 point talent in the MM tree. No damage, 3 second stun that causes you to wander randomly.

A skilled ranged opponent -- like a mage, for instance -- often gets quite good at staying 7 meters away from you, pummeling the shit out of you with instants while you can't respond. (They really love to do it if they've got you locked down with FN).

[Chenghiz]

Our problem in a nutshell is that every melee class has a way to close range on us. We have nothing to GET to range -- nothing that works. Our snares are weaker than melee snares. Our stuns are too short, our traps too worthless, or melee damage easily ignored. Once we're in melee, against an equally skilled opponent we will not regain range, and thus we are dead.

The only snare that's better than Wing Clip is Crippling Poison, which is a proc and a poison, and thus not an issue with a half-competent dispeller on your side. In saying your stuns are too short I assume you mean Intimidate, which is 3 seconds and really more than enough time to get away. Your pvp trinket should also deal with snares, and if that fails you also have freeze trap and frost trap for unlimited kiting action, not to mention the incredibly annoying concussive shot. I haven't done arenas as a hunter but I recall Counterattack being a win-button back at 60 as well.

Meanwhile I, as a snared rogue, have a few options open to me. 1) Sprint, if I have the talent that makes it break roots/snares, or 2) shadowstep, if I was idiot enough to spec into that shitty tree. Of those options, frost trap makes sprint utterly useless and cloak of shadows does nothing against it. Option 3 will work but only if I'm stealthed (in 2.3 i can use it out of stealth but it gets a 40s cooldown making it useful maybe twice in a match).

Now if I'm a warrior I can intercept every 20 seconds which does make your staying out of melee much harder, but everyone else has the same problems with them. Can we just drop the hunter stuff and agree that warriors ( and frost mages, really) are broken for arenas right now?

[Threash]

Just for anyone who is not clear on the whole dead zone concept:

0------5m****8m----------------------36/41m

Those "stars" -- the area between 5 meters and 8 meters (or does blizzard do it in yards? Not much of a difference, really) is our deadzone. We have ONE thing that works there, which is "scatter shot" -- a 21 point talent in the MM tree. No damage, 3 second stun that causes you to wander randomly.

A skilled ranged opponent -- like a mage, for instance -- often gets quite good at staying 7 meters away from you, pummeling the shit out of you with instants while you can't respond. (They really love to do it if they've got you locked down with FN).

How is that any different than the mage standing 7 meters away from a rogue or a warrior? we have a deadzone between 5-8 meters, for them its 5-41 and they are just as easy to kite.  We cant be silenced or counter spelled, every other class has a way for you to stop their dpsing.  Ask rogues and warriors how they feel about their dead zone when my priest is kiting them over my frost trap.

[Morat20]

The only snare that's better than Wing Clip is Crippling Poison, which is a proc and a poison, and thus not an issue with a half-competent dispeller on your side. In saying your stuns are too short I assume you mean Intimidate, which is 3 seconds and really more than enough time to get away. Your pvp trinket should also deal with snares, and if that fails you also have freeze trap and frost trap for unlimited kiting action, not to mention the incredibly annoying concussive shot. I haven't done arenas as a hunter but I recall Counterattack being a win-button back at 60 as well.

Hamstring lasts longer, 3 seconds isn't enough to get back to range -- it really isn't, especially not with everyone and their dog having speed-enhancing talents these days. (Ours, of course, comes with that lovely stun on damage).

Counterattack is pretty damn useless, as is survival in general these days.

Yes, our PvP trinket deals with snares -- so does theirs.

As for traps -- I think I've mentioned this, but I'll say it again: 30 second cool-down, high resist rate, two second arm time, and HIGHLY VISIBLE. Really, you have to be several kinds of dumb to step on one of our traps, especially if you're already in melee.

Meanwhile I, as a snared rogue, have a few options open to me. 1) Sprint, if I have the talent that makes it break roots/snares, or 2) shadowstep, if I was idiot enough to spec into that shitty tree. Of those options, frost trap makes sprint utterly useless and cloak of shadows does nothing against it. Option 3 will work but only if I'm stealthed (in 2.3 i can use it out of stealth but it gets a 40s cooldown making it useful maybe twice in a match).

As a rogue, you'd never trigger our frost trap, because you're not a moron. In PvP, we'd get crippling poisoned (assuming you can't pull off the great stunlock sequence) and we'd wingclip you, we'd both trinket, and you'd go back to raping my ass with your melee DPS. I might get off a 3-second stun and run for the hills, but you'd sprint in as soon as it clears and I'd maybe get one shot off, and even concussion shot wouldn't stop you from getting back to range.

You'd never hit our trap (unless I got incredibly lucky and scatter-shot you into it), because you'd see me lay it and move around it. (Quite easy -- the trigger zone is small and you can see it). I can't just "lay it at your feet" because it doesn't arm for two seconds.

Now if I'm a warrior I can intercept every 20 seconds which does make your staying out of melee much harder, but everyone else has the same problems with them. Can we just drop the hunter stuff and agree that warriors ( and frost mages, really) are broken for arenas right now?

Hunters suck against everyone. There's a reason they're dead last in 2v2 representation, and it's not because all the 2v2 teams are made up of warriors.

A rogue is probably one of our best 1v1 matchups (pre-BC I'd clean up against rogues, if I spotted you first you'd never even touch me. The reverse, sadly, was also true. I remember getting stunlocked and dying before I actually got forced off my mount) now, but rogues still have a significant edge.

Threash:
Because warriors and rogues have a large number of ways to close the distance, and to break snares and stuns. We really don't.

As for "not stopping our DPS" -- haven't you heard of polymorph, any of a huge variety of fears (our trinket doesn't break fears), stunlocks, stuns, and a huge number of other ways our DPS gets shut down?

[ajax34i]

30% mana regen while casting, YES TYVM!  I guess they reconsidered the nerfs they made to all that "+15% extra on top of the talents" Tier 2 gear, but figured it wouldn't work to add the 15% back into gear, since they make tiers obsolete with each expansion.  Also, maybe it's just me, but I'm finding lots of +heal / +dmg gear, but very little +mp/5 gear.  This is a nice boost to spirit as a stat.

The other stuff is nice, but I'm waiting for the nerf patch to follow 2.3, heh.

[Morat20]

Side-stepping specifics on why, I'd like to point out again that the class participations of the top-20 Arena teams by brackets has Hunters dead last in 2v2 and 3v3 (despite Hunters being a VERY popular class), and in the bottom three classes in 5v5.

I'd suggest that Hunters utilize in 5v5 is basically that individual class performances start to average out, and Hunters's "steady over time" DPS starts to actually have a mild effect. They work well in a few setups, although I haven't seen one that wouldn't work better with a skilled mage.

Ideally, you'd have a PvP makeup that followed the general population. In specific, with the sort of synergies between classes that are possible, you won't get that in 2v2 and 3v3, but Hunters totalling something like 4% of the 2v2 teams? 3% of the 3v3 teams? I think last I saw they got up to 8% in 5v5. That's a sign of a real problem. Hunters are something like 16% of the WoW population, and are highly active in PvP, yet they're non-existant in higher brackets. That's a significant problem, given that Arena PvP is the high-end of PvP, and given the gear that gets handed out there.

Someone obviously is going to be last, but being last in all three brackets? Having a representation in 2 brackets that amounts to one or two players, from the most popular class in the game?

I think last season's winning 5v5 team had a Hunter, who said something like "The only reason I'm on this team instead of a mage is I'm running it". I'd say he's probably got a pretty good feel for the class.

[Fordel]

Morat: You've said this a few times now, but I don't understand where your getting this idea. A Hunter trap is no more resitable then any other CC/Spell in game, nor is it "visible" if it's already laid down (Your the hunter can see your OWN trap yes and your allies can see your trap, but your enemies can not see your trap). Yes if you see a hunter put the trap down on your feet, you may have a chance to escape it before it arms, maybe. But that trap that was dropped before either team got into range of each other, there is no way to see it unless you are a rogue with trap finding up. Also, nothing is stopping you from standing on your own trap when you drop it. Trap trigger range is not less then melee range last I knew 


Your trinket breaks all CC now, as does everyone else's, it was changed a few patches ago.


And things like Poly, Fear, Stunlock? Those aren't hunter specific issues in terms of stopping DPS. Remind me the last time you were Counter Spelled for 10 seconds of uselessness as a hunter though, or had your offensive and defensive abilities neutered by a single lock pet (fuck that stupid fucking demon dog ><)


Yes, the dead zone is to stop your auto shoot, If your getting wailed on by a rogue, but getting heals from your local paladin, you can still shoot that priest across the map. 6 second instants are not 'long' cool downs either.


You asked how the dead zone "defined" the class, I explained. I agree hunters have issues in the arena, I've said as much in this very thread. What you seem to want is a different class though. The issue is much more the venue of the arena then the class abilities. No one ever thinks "boy that hunter sure did suck at defending the flag in WSG" or "man that hunter totally wasn't picking off all our cloth casters across the bridge at Dun Baldar" because those are places where a hunter can do what it is designed to do. Stand off, steady, "safe" dps.

[Morat20]

You asked how the dead zone "defined" the class, I explained. I agree hunters have issues in the arena, I've said as much in this very thread. What you seem to want is a different class though. The issue is much more the venue of the arena then the class abilities. No one ever thinks "boy that hunter sure did suck at defending the flag in WSG" or "man that hunter totally wasn't picking off all our cloth casters across the bridge at Dun Baldar" because those are places where a hunter can do what it is designed to do. Stand off, steady, "safe" dps.

Then Blizzard either needs to redesign Hunter or redesign the Arenas (they seem to be trying to half-ass figure out what to change on Hunters right now).

Because Arena's ARE the high-end PvP, and if one of their most popular class sucks so badly there that they've got less than token representation, something's going to change.

As for defending the flag in WSG, good lord -- that's a bitch and a half. You're either on the second floor with half the room out of LoS, on the roof with half the room out of range, or in the room running around trying to GET range. Why the hell would a Hunter defend a flag in WSG? It's an exercise in futility.

The only reason -- the ONLY reason we're not as bad in BG's as Arenas is that we have a lot of room to stand off, and we're low priority compared to everyone else. If it's not up in your face, it tends to get overlooked. Which is why we do best in AV, since there's generally at least ten other people occupying the enemies attention at any one time.

(The trap change I alluded to was making traps 'stealthed' instead of 'invisible'. Given the huge amount of stealth detection people use, it's really hard to step on a trap. As for Hunter's standing on it -- good lord, just stick the someone 7 meters away and the Hunter will move, I promise).

[Xanthippe]

I've found it basically a waste of time trying to convince anyone who doesn't play a hunter (or that one particularly highly skilled hunter who is so skilled that everyone else sucks against him) that hunters need love.  Since TBC, hunters are very broken compared to practically every other class.  The fact that one particular spec doesn't suck doesn't mean hunters aren't broken.  Any class that can only spec 1 way to be effective is broken.

[Morat20]

I've found it basically a waste of time trying to convince anyone who doesn't play a hunter (or that one particularly highly skilled hunter who is so skilled that everyone else sucks against him) that hunters need love.  Since TBC, hunters are very broken compared to practically every other class.  The fact that one particular spec doesn't suck doesn't mean hunters aren't broken.  Any class that can only spec 1 way to be effective is broken.

We're broken three ways in the Arena.

1) Lack of Burst DPS and effective CC -- 2v2 and 3v3 matches focus on burning down someone so you can go 2v1 against his opponent. A freeze trap as CC is nice, but requires someone to stupidly step on it -- kind of more luck dependent than a sheep, with a far longer cooldown. Not to mention kind of obvious these days. Lack of burst DPS means frankly the match is over by the time our general "We can still pump out OK DPS when everyone else has blown all pots, and is OOM".
2) LOS/Deadzone issues -- those fucking pillars. They're either out of our LOS, or they're in our goddamn deadzone. We cannot kite in the arena, which is really our only effective PvP strategy (which costs us considerably DPS to do anyways). We're useless in melee range, and we can't ever stay at ranged.
3) Lack of any synergy -- we don't have shit with anyone. TSA is too small, Ferocious Inspiration is decent in 5v5 at least, and we're reduced to a single trick -- stacking viper sting with multiple scorpid stings to mana drain and avoid cleanse (and it's getting nerfed).

Our pets are inferior to Warlock pets (yes, even BM specced pets). Our CC is seriously hampered by it's arm time, high resist rates, and small trigger zone (we can't target it). Our snares are small, and generally available only AFTER we're fucked. Our stuns are too small, require high-specced talents, or have low chances of proccing. The very design of the arena means we're screwed with delivering damage.

In short, a Hunter brings nothing to any decent 2v2 or 3v3 that another class doesn't bring better, and we have less utility. In 5v5, we're of marginal use but we still are inferior to mages and 'locks.

[Fordel]

(The trap change I alluded to was making traps 'stealthed' instead of 'invisible'. Given the huge amount of stealth detection people use, it's really hard to step on a trap. As for Hunter's standing on it -- good lord, just stick the someone 7 meters away and the Hunter will move, I promise).

If the thing you want trapped is 7 meters away, great, it isn't meleeing you anymore, problem solved, continue shooting the priest in the back  .

You're really overestimating the stealth detection and how its used against traps. I have my doubts that people are popping perception to see where the hunter dropped its trap.

As to WSG flag defense, exaggerate more please  , I don't think we truly understand how much you hate your hunter yet. But yes, why would the class that can Track people, mark the FC, have both ranged, melee and stationary snares and depending on spec be totally unCCable, ever defend the flag and flag room? Futility? Really?

The only reason -- the ONLY reason we're not as bad in BG's as Arenas is that we have a lot of room to stand off, and we're low priority compared to everyone else. If it's not up in your face, it tends to get overlooked. Which is why we do best in AV, since there's generally at least ten other people occupying the enemies attention at any one time.

Which is what I've been saying for the last half dozen posts, have I not? When a hunter can stand off and shoot, its all gravy. Arena's don't facilitate this, I agree, I also agree this should be changed and there should be more variety in the types of Arena map styles in play. Currently we have LoS pillars, LoS tombstone and LoS Bridge+Pillars. No, it isn't any wonder why the class designed around max range stand offs really suck in a 5x5 effective box.

As a melee class how awesome AV is when there is a big standoff over a Graveyard, or the dreaded bridge of doom. I'm sure they love charging in to die before the charge even finishes closing the gap. You can also ask any protection specced character how awesome it actually and sincerely is to be useful in WSG or AV, when being the giant meatshield carrying FC or actually having something to tank matters. Back when the BGs where the 'premiere' PvP around, other classes got the short end of the stick, the same way hunters get it now... and it isn't like hunters are alone at the bottom of the shit list for Arena usefulness.


Just don't bank on a hunter class redesign that will suddenly make them not suck in the Arena's (as the arena's stand today), as it would basically require Blizz to create a entirely new class from scratch for the most part. We'll sooner get viable ret paladins then see blizz remake hunters.

[Fordel]

I've found it basically a waste of time trying to convince anyone who doesn't play a hunter (or that one particularly highly skilled hunter who is so skilled that everyone else sucks against him) that hunters need love.  Since TBC, hunters are very broken compared to practically every other class.  The fact that one particular spec doesn't suck doesn't mean hunters aren't broken.  Any class that can only spec 1 way to be effective is broken.

You do know that you've described Warriors, Mages and Paladins in terms of the Arena?  :-D

[Xanthippe]

I've found it basically a waste of time trying to convince anyone who doesn't play a hunter (or that one particularly highly skilled hunter who is so skilled that everyone else sucks against him) that hunters need love.  Since TBC, hunters are very broken compared to practically every other class.  The fact that one particular spec doesn't suck doesn't mean hunters aren't broken.  Any class that can only spec 1 way to be effective is broken.

You do know that you've described Warriors, Mages and Paladins in terms of the Arena?  :-D

Except that I'm not talking about just arena.  I don't even play arena on my hunter.  Actually, I don't even play my hunter anymore at all.  Playing a lock instead.  FOTM, that's me all the way.

[Morat20]

If the thing you want trapped is 7 meters away, great, it isn't meleeing you anymore, problem solved, continue shooting the priest in the back  .

You're really overestimating the stealth detection and how its used against traps. I have my doubts that people are popping perception to see where the hunter dropped its trap.

As to WSG flag defense, exaggerate more please  , I don't think we truly understand how much you hate your hunter yet. But yes, why would the class that can Track people, mark the FC, have both ranged, melee and stationary snares and depending on spec be totally unCCable, ever defend the flag and flag room? Futility? Really?

Do you even HAVE a hunter? Because you sound like someone whose entire experience with them has been from the outside -- all good in theory, no practice.

WSG? You want Hunters midfield, not carrying and not guarding. They've got the high range, the track, and can use Cheetah in midfield (usually not being attacked at that point) to try to intercept the Shaman carrying the flag, and try to land in a concussion shot and mark before someone tags and dazes the Hunter. Midfield means a hunter can use his range and steady DPS to pick off stragglers trying to make it TO the flag room, and be the first to start slamming into a runner coming the other way.

Hunters don't belong in the flagroom, where they don't have range to DPS. About all they're good for is a big frost trap on the flag proper, and after that they're just dead meat to the flag-capture team. (For all their mail, Hunters die VERY quickly. No bubbles, no frost novas, no blinks, no ice blocks, no shield, and certainly no offense power in a closed room).

Guarding the flag room, about the best tactic I've found is to drop an ice trap on the flag, leave a stealthed pet next to it, Cheetah up to the second floor or roof and hope to hell they come up the tunnel and don't send anyone up the second floor route. Then you can generally use Intimidate, Concussion shot, and the trap to hold the flag runner still enough for the rest of the flag team to kill him. But you're better off leaving a warrior and a pair of rogues, which can do that but better.

It's like your "How Hunters get to range in melee". It doesn't actually work in practice. In practice, you both snare each other, you both trinket, you snare each other, you limp to range but don't clear melee+ deadzone by the time your wingclip wears off, and you get hammered. Or you drop a trap he simply avoids and continues to hammer you.

My favorite is "Well, you keep shooting at the priest while the other guy is on you". Yes, that works. The priest that only ducks out from behind the pillar to drop a heal? I get in single great arcane shot on him -- which won't crit, and won't really even bug him, while the guy on top of me is set to kill me in about 5 seconds because he's doing insane DPS and I'm in mail with no shield, and certainly no clever damage absorbtion spells or talents.

If a warrior or a rogue is DPSing me, my life span is less than 15 seconds unless MY healer is focused on keeping me up. But here's the thing -- that's a losing battle. My healer will go OOM keeping me alive, but I won't be doing jack to the warrior, so his healer can simply heal himself. So I have to focus on getting to range, so that my healer isn't going OOM trying to keep me up and start making HIS healer work for a living. Which doesn't work, because the rogue or warrior beating up on me won't let me get to range, and I don't have the toolkit to do it -- despite what your theorycrafting says -- and I can't melee against him.

What if it's a mage I'm attacking? Well, if I'm BM-specced I can pop "TBW" and hammer him. He can ice-block, blink, or otherwise keep the hell out of my way and soak a ton of my 18 seconds of damage (or just get close to me so that he's really only eating the pet and my awesome melee damage) while his healer either keeps him up, or his partner melts me or my healer while I'm uselessly focused on him. (Odds are, he sheeped my partner the second I grew big). The second big red fades, I get double teamed having blown my one decent ability for and still not had the burst to kill anyone, because anyone I'm focused at can drop my damage to 15% just by being next to me.

In the end, though, no matter WHAT my spec, the following always holds true:

I can be reduced to 15% of my not all that impressive damage by closing to within 8 yards of me and staying there, or even less by staying on the other side of a pillar and popping out for DoTs or instants. (It doesn't require a degree in math to realize why if you're running circles around a pillar, I can't really kite you, since I'd be running a circle 8 meters wider than yours).

And once you've closed to within melee range, I lack useful tools for getting back out. I have Wingclip, and traps, and either SS or Intimidation. It doesn't work 90% of the time, unless my opponent is really stupid. Not just for me -- for even the best, as a glance at the top arena teams would show.

On the other hand, my mage is turning into pure awesome. I don't even bother PvPing with my hunter, but I'm having a huge blast just leveling with my mage. Whole different feel to the class that I like.

[Merusk]

I've found it basically a waste of time trying to convince anyone who doesn't play a hunter (or that one particularly highly skilled hunter who is so skilled that everyone else sucks against him) that hunters need love.  Since TBC, hunters are very broken compared to practically every other class.  The fact that one particular spec doesn't suck doesn't mean hunters aren't broken.  Any class that can only spec 1 way to be effective is broken.

You do know that you've described Warriors, Mages and Paladins in terms of the Arena?  :-D

I don't know about Mages, but I've seen some Ret pallies (in excellent gear, true.) kick ass.  There's a 5-pally team on Rampage that does pretty well for themselves, 3 ret 2 holy.  Fuckers.  Warriors prot has never been damage, which is their usual complaint. They can't even excel at PvE like Prot Pallies, since they gots no heals.   Fury, though, I'm surprised doesn't do well.  We've got a lolzfury warrior who dishes out damage fairly well met be that it's over time like hunters, with no spike.

[bhodi]

A friend of mine plays in the 3v3 and is the top PvPer on our wargroup or whatever.. it's actually my character, I gave him my account shortly after burning crusade was released (I got bored of the game).

He's a rogue in a 'rogue rogue priest' group. It works great against all comers except against a war druid pally combo; If they can burn down one of the opponents before they can take out their priest, they can generally win. Priest is discipline specc'd, both rogues are combat, one maces one swords; one is specc'd imp expose armor... so you've got cheap shot openings, they both burn blade fury and adren rush, and then one pops kidney shot and the other expose armor at 5 combo points.

Mace is going to spec to fists next patch. Tasty, tasty crit.

[Merusk]

Morat: You've said this a few times now, but I don't understand where your getting this idea. A Hunter trap is no more resitable then any other CC/Spell in game, nor is it "visible" if it's already laid down (Your the hunter can see your OWN trap yes and your allies can see your trap, but your enemies can not see your trap).

Umm, that was changed ages ago, pre-bc when everyone was crying about hunters saying that we were broken and way over powered. (And we were due to talents changing for BC prior to BC gear showing up.)  Trap activation radius is now the same size as the graphic, AND everyone has a chance to see it.  The only way you don't is if we're standing right on top of it.. which means you're in melee range of us anyway.

And things like Poly, Fear, Stunlock? Those aren't hunter specific issues in terms of stopping DPS. Remind me the last time you were Counter Spelled for 10 seconds of uselessness as a hunter though, or had your offensive and defensive abilities neutered by a single lock pet (fuck that stupid fucking demon dog ><)

All the time.  Damn succubi.

It's clear now that you're just a clothie - probably a mage -  bitching about hunters from 6 months ago.. Things changed.  DPSing that priest? The rogue is interrupting our Steady Shot (which gets pushback, but no channeling talent) and our Arcane/ Multi shot MIGHT hit for a total of 3k off the start.  After that it's a fucking stupid priest that stands there for the 6s for them to cooldown so we can shoot him again... and then another 6s to shoot him the 3rd time for a grand total of... 9k.  Oh yeah, we're raping face there.

I raid on my hunter now, where I can actually serve a somewhat useful purpose.. but only after I was forced to prove myself once again, because the common belief is that Hunters are worthless in PvE as well outside of 5-mans. Screw PvP, I've got a Pally for that.

[Fordel]

Xanth: Outside of Arena's both Marks and BeastMastery are viable pve and pvp specs. Survival is at best confused, at worst total suckage.

Merusk: For mages to be competitive in the Arena's they almost always have to be frost, IceBarrier, IceBlock, improved snares, the water pet. Fire and Arcane just tend to die too quickly to too many things. Fury warriors fail not because of spike, but lack of MortalStrike. Take away MortalStrike and arms effectiveness would plummet dramatically. Ret pally's are a joke as it stands, pve, pvp, everything in between. Probably the only thing really saving that 5 man pally team, is the fact its 5 damn paladins. Brings new meaning to "Kill the healer first!" :)


Morat: I fucking *AGREE* with you that Hunters are fucked in the Arena, as does everyone else here for the most part. No need to write out 14 pages on how LoS pillar games fuck hunters. I've said so myself more then once in this thread.


Despite the fact we both seem to be writing in English, neither of us can understand the other. IE:

"My favorite is "Well, you keep shooting at the priest while the other guy is on you". Yes, that works. The priest that only ducks out from behind the pillar to drop a heal? I get in single great arcane shot on him -- which won't crit, and won't really even bug him, while the guy on top of me is set to kill me in about 5 seconds because he's doing insane DPS and I'm in mail with no shield, and certainly no clever damage absorption spells or talents."

This was not meant as a claim on how hunters could work in the arena. Yes in your example the hunters effectiveness is nil, I agree. Hunters are fucked in the Arena's.  Inverse the situation though (for debate purposes!  ), remove the LoS pillar, say your defending the blacksmith in AB. Do you agree or disagree that being able to put constant DPS pressure on enemy healers despite yourself being pressured by enemy melee is an advantage?  This is all my original statement was addressing. In most other venues, LoS isn't an issue (or even a concern, hello trees in AV, and hills, and the entire geography of the damn map really).


You somehow took "hey a hunter can defend the flag in WSG" and turned it into "Hunters must only defend the flag in WSG, never do anything else in the zone and are unquestionably the best at it!". You called the idea futile then went on how highlight how it wasn't. Where are we having the disconnect? We seem to agree, hunters are useful outside of the arena, yet we are debating the same point?



Again yes, close into 8yards and a hunters effectiveness goes dramatically down, stay 8 or more yards away, so does a warriors (ret paladins, enhance shamans, feral druids, rogues etc.). A warrior whose intercept is down and hasn't landed a hamstring (or had them both countered) is a wet noodle until intercept is back up again. Ret pallies and enhance shamans are in even shittier boats in that regard. The size and geography of the Arena's just makes keeping inside 8 much easier then staying outside of 8.

Design some arena's where the emphasis is on stand offs, kiting and range and Hunter effectiveness will increase dramatically.



Side Note: "It's like your "How Hunters get to range in melee". It doesn't actually work in practice. In practice, you both snare each other, you both trinket, you snare each other, you limp to range but don't clear melee+ deadzone by the time your wingclip wears off, and you get hammered. Or you drop a trap he simply avoids and continues to hammer you."

I really do not understand what you are attempting to do. You have a rogue on you, put down the trap, stand on the trap. Rogue either moves away to avoid the trap taking him off you melee wise, or he continues to melee and is encased in a block of ice. I've been on both ends of this, I do not understand the issue or why this in particular isn't plausible. How is anyone "avoiding" the trap if you are on it and they are meleeing you?

[Fordel]

Umm, that was changed ages ago, pre-bc when everyone was crying about hunters saying that we were broken and way over powered. (And we were due to talents changing for BC prior to BC gear showing up.)  Trap activation radius is now the same size as the graphic, AND everyone has a chance to see it.  The only way you don't is if we're standing right on top of it.. which means you're in melee range of us anyway.

Which means they are encased in a block of ice again. 

And because being seduced by the succubus is a hunter only issue and comparable to being locked out of all your abilities while still taking damage 5-10 seconds? I'll take the bus over the mana dog every time.

No I am not a "clothie" my main is a Balance druid. If there is any class I can kill on a regular basis, it's a hunter. I just have so much armor in moonkin form that all the physical DPS classes just kinda bounce off of me for the most part. No need for deadzone shenanigans or anything like that either, 14k armor will do that for yea. In terms of 1v1, the only classes that give me real pause are locks (who isn't screwed by a lock?) and lucky mages. A mage that can string together a good CS/Stun/Daze chain is really annoying and usually means I die.

I'm the class that will abuse the shit out of pillars in the arena, and I agree it's a fucked up dynamic as it stands currently.

[Koyasha]

Well, on a totally different topic than Hunters, in 2.3 Drain Life and Siphon Life are going to start being affected by Mortal Strike and Wound Poison.  That annoys me not because I think it's a bad or unjustified nerf, but because it's a buff to the most overpowered debuff in the game - Mortal Strike.  Not that MS is that powerful, it's the complete lack of any way to remove or dispel it that's the problem...oh, except for abilities that are on 3+ minute cooldowns, 2 out or 3 of which are self-only for paladins and mages, vs. it's 6 second cooldown.

Mortal Strike seriously needs an effective way to remove it.  Wound Poison at least isn't completely unremovable, which in my book makes it fine and dandy.

[Fordel]

Wound poison also takes a little more effort to get to max effectiveness, need a 5 stack to match MS? 

[Koyasha]

Yeah.  The stacking can make it pretty difficult to remove, but it also has the disadvantage of needing to be stacked in order to reach full effectiveness, so it goes both ways.  Mortal Strike has no downside either way - one hit gets it at full power, and it's pretty close to unremovable.

[Chenghiz]

Mace is going to spec to fists next patch. Tasty, tasty crit.

Maybe you already know but they aren't nerfing rogues' mace spec.

Rogue either moves away to avoid the trap taking him off you melee wise, or he continues to melee and is encased in a block of ice.

More like frost. Using cloak of shadows will nullify the freeze trap easily but does nothing against frost trap. In fact nothing works on frost trap which is why it's so amazing. We snare each other - me with crippling, you with frost trap, we both trinket.. and i'm still snared.