White Wolf MMoG?

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'll be a lot more forgiving of flaws in a VtM game than I would be in something like warhammer where the IP only vaguely appeals to me.  So, I think there will be a market for this but it really depends on if they screw the pooch or not.

[Lantyssa]

I need more details all around before doomcasting any more than I would for New MMO Property Announcement 001.

[Kail]

I think everyone can agree that initial "Box sales" will be strong based on the VTM brand and the Bloodlines game. Whether it lasts depends on a lot of things.

I don't know that I'd bank too heavily on the success of Bloodlines.  The game sold badly enough that it killed Troika.

And if they try to Twilight this game, there is going to be some serious gnashing of teeth.  You cannot have one audience picking up a game hoping for some tweeny romance and another hoping for a blood drenched "EVE with Vampires" PvP-fest without someone being disappointed.  You're either going to have Goons crying in the corner about being unable to grief anyone, or they're going to be scraping Bella off the cieling with a spatula.

[CmdrSlack]

I wish I had never read this thread.

I missed out on Bloodlines when it came out. I was in my third year of law school, then studying for the bar exam, then broke as hell till I found work, etc.

So I read a bit here about how nifty it was, and I go grab it on Steam.

Hours later, I'm still trying to read through various forums to figure out how to fix some "Only 15 mb available memory" cockblock bug that won't let the game load. In the process, I discover a very emo community that rails against various mod/patch makers in an attempt to establish the one true mod. Determined to not see my 20 bucks go to waste, I am actually wading through this pap to find the brilliant nugget of "HOW SLACK CAN MAKE HIS GAEM WORKS."

To be all emo and facebooky, fml.

[Kail]

I always just downloaded whatever the one was they have hosted here, which worked fine for me.  Though I haven't tried it with the Steam version.

[UnSub]

A lot of the stuff CCP mention are around the edges but a big draw card, much like 0 space is what everyone talks about in EvE but most players rarely venture outside of the safe areas.

What's critical here is how the PvE element plays out. Women coming to WoDO for the Vampire setting (if it really is a key market for them, and I don't think it is) aren't coming for hardcorz PvP aktion. I can accept permadeath as a concept that fits the genre (perhaps through diablere (sp?)) but it's a lousy game mechanic for retaining players.

The other big unknown is the emergent player politics that I'm not sure you can develop systems for. In the PnP, the GM has control over NPC reactions to players, no matter how they really conduct themselves, so that the combat monster player puts enough points in the right stats and gets to have a silver tongue. In WoDO, player politics won't work like that, so that MakkEAV3ll1 won't be able to gain political favour no matter how many points he invests in stats / skills / attributes if he leads off conversations with, "SUP BITCHES".

[Jherad]

I can't see permadeath and fully open PvP being in the slightest bit compatible with retaining casual players. The moment their investment (time, RP, whatever) disappears permanently in a puff of smoke, the majority will quit. Much more so for casual players than hardcore, as a reasonably developed character represents a significantly longer period of time - and casual players tend to have fewer resources to help them rebuild.

[Modern Angel]

They're not going to have permadeath. I think there are going to be a not insignificant number of LARPers coming to the game who are absolutely expecting them to.

[Endie]

I'm going to have so many black veins running through my aura you'll think I've had it decorated.

[Wolf]

Don't need it. They're doing new proprietary clothing physics tech. There was a thirty second video lurking somewhere on youtube but its inexplicably difficult to find. It's neat. It also looks expensive and system intensive.

linky - It's called Carbon, looks pretty nice :)

[Lantyssa]

I'm going to have so many black veins running through my aura you'll think I've had it decorated.

I love when someone else does all the work for me, and it only requires one extra person rattling around my head.  =9

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, that's the stuff. Looks amazing. NOW, mesh that with the audience of Twilight housewives they're talking up as a portion of their business. Mesh it with LARPers who don't play PC games on a modern machine. Compare it with EVE, which relies on art and cool lighting for most of its good looks.

I'm looking at that, picturing 100 of those dresses moving around in a club and I'm not seeing how it works. Of course, I've felt like my machine hasn't been pushed in years so it's past time to move up...

I sound like I'm really rooting for this thing to fail. I'm really not. I love the Wolf. I'd love to see it succeed. There are just some really fundamental warning flags popping up that have nothing to do with what's in the actual gameplay giving me the willies.

[Wolf]

I love you too man 

[Modern Angel]

Our booty call is at the same place and time this week?

[Bunk]

Don't need it. They're doing new proprietary clothing physics tech. There was a thirty second video lurking somewhere on youtube but its inexplicably difficult to find. It's neat. It also looks expensive and system intensive.

linky - It's called Carbon, looks pretty nice :)

If that tech is runable on current systems with multiple characters on screen - well holy shit is all I've got to say. That's a long waays from waiting half an hour for Poser to drape a peice of clothing.

[ajax34i]

You guys are expecting a club packed with people dancing, but without collision and with Jita numbers it'll be a completely different thing.

[UnSub]

I'm looking forward to the physics when someone steps on one of those long, flowy dresses.

[Der Helm]

I read that as ...

I'm looking forward to the physics when someone steps out of one of those long, flowy dresses.

/

[Lantyssa]

Vampire players... there will be lots of that, too.

[Sir T]

Vampire is about sex. Mage is about drugs. Werewolf is about rock and roll!

[patience]

Yeah, that's the stuff. Looks amazing. NOW, mesh that with the audience of Twilight housewives they're talking up as a portion of their business. Mesh it with LARPers who don't play PC games on a modern machine. Compare it with EVE, which relies on art and cool lighting for most of its good looks.

I'm looking at that, picturing 100 of those dresses moving around in a club and I'm not seeing how it works. Of course, I've felt like my machine hasn't been pushed in years so it's past time to move up...

I sound like I'm really rooting for this thing to fail. I'm really not. I love the Wolf. I'd love to see it succeed. There are just some really fundamental warning flags popping up that have nothing to do with what's in the actual gameplay giving me the willies.

Keep in mind that CCP at the earliest won't release this MMO till 20123. Intel's Sandybridge architecture releasing next year is going to have integrated option that will threaten low end discrete graphics for once.  It's not helpful to anyone who has brought a cheapo pc in the last two years but everyone else who is inclined to upgrade cheaply from older machines will have something that would make things acceptably beautiful.

-

I'm curious about something. I never played anything related to WoD but I've heard a few things about it.

Wouldn't it be prudent of CCP to actually appeal to that fanbase to have layers of anonymity that can be removed through game mechanics?

From what I understand while the Vampires are generally the dominant species they have a social structure in place that keeps the humans largely unaware of them, hence the Masquerade. On top of that, in comparison to table top games like DnD or btech, WoD games have always left an impression on me social dynamics mean a lot because there's a lot of political maneuvering and as a result is much closer to the mind games seen in Paranoia.

What I mean by layers of anonymity I'm talking about something like:
Level 4- Individual Player characters
Level 3- Characters known to be used by the same account
Level 2- Characters having strong associations with the account (accounts that use the same credit card or share the same IP address but are played in a way that suggests the accounts are used by different family members or roommates.)
Level 1-Potentially allied characters not associated by guild tags but are notorious for being used in conjunction with the account holder.
Level 0- Facebook homepage (sort of kidding with this last one)

[Pezzle]

The issue with WoD in an mmo is the big three systems are really not compatible.  It was always easier to build a respectable vampire combatant than a werewolf.  I do not blame them for going vampire only.  Mages would be nearly impossible to implement faithfully.  Imagine getting some watered down dev client with various confusing options depending on where you spend your xp.  The rules are simple.  You are a mage, you can do anything!  Now, if you crash your client your character spends X number of days unavailable as he/she recuperates.  Crash the server?  Your character is wiped as paradox consumes them and everything they own.   

[UnSub]

Wouldn't it be prudent of CCP to actually appeal to that fanbase to have layers of anonymity that can be removed through game mechanics?

What's the point of being secretly special unless everyone KNOWS you are secretly special? 

[Pezzle]

Get away from me you simpering malky!

[Modern Angel]

Keep in mind that CCP at the earliest won't release this MMO till 20123. Intel's Sandybridge architecture releasing next year is going to have integrated option that will threaten low end discrete graphics for once.  It's not helpful to anyone who has brought a cheapo pc in the last two years but everyone else who is inclined to upgrade cheaply from older machines will have something that would make things acceptably beautiful.

Right, that's sort of my point. They have stated that they want non-traditional gamers in on this, specifically women and (without actually saying it) people into stuff like Twilight and True Blood. WoW did that and it's a large part of their success. Awesome, cool. Totally with them on this.

So we have a proto-business model relying on non-traditional gamers. Those people do not upgrade their PCs. Repeat it with me: those people do not upgrade their PCs. CCP is releasing a game with cutting edge physics tech which people will have to upgrade their machines to play. The game's budget we can probably estimate as Way Too Much given the development length and amount of hiring they're doing.

This is just stuff that we absolutely know from the little they've said or can extrapolate. That's the crux of my saying this is crazy. This is an experiment you run with a budget half of what they may be looking at. Points for trying to do something different, if they do. I mean that. There's just some stench around the way this sort of thing shakes out business-wise that I can't shake.

Niche product + relying on people who don't upgrade their machines + cutting edge physics + bloated budget = potential disaster.

[Typhon]

[...]This is an experiment you run with a budget half of what they may be looking at[...]

Isn't this already approximately two years in development?  Seems to me they already did some experimenting, liked what they saw and now they are gearing up for production development.  I'm willing to admit that I have that perspective due to wanting to play a game in this setting.  Also have to admit that I'm scairt of them trying to pull in the Twilight crowd and what that implies.

[Lantyssa]

The issue with WoD in an mmo is the big three systems are really not compatible.  It was always easier to build a respectable vampire combatant than a werewolf.

Huh?  Weres are built for combat.  It's hard to make one that wouldn't kick the arse of an equivalent-level kindred.

[Modern Angel]

It's been in development since 2006, near as anyone can tell. That's going to put it at six years, at least. Probably seven. Maybe eight, who knows? They claim to already have done 630k man hours on it.

[Pezzle]

The issue with WoD in an mmo is the big three systems are really not compatible.  It was always easier to build a respectable vampire combatant than a werewolf.

Huh?  Weres are built for combat.  It's hard to make one that wouldn't kick the arse of an equivalent-level kindred.

My experiences say otherwise.  Maybe at the very start?  Rage and Gnosis are simply not as easy to sustain through a fight or regain.  Vampires have lots of easy access tricks.  We never had much trouble fighting them, the biggest deal was claws.  Our whole group concluded that the systems were simply not compatible, to say nothing of mage which was wtf.

[Lantyssa]

Then your players didn't know Werewolf well enough.  Or the GM didn't want to kill you off.  Or they weren't really equivalent level.

Rage is really easy to sustain.  Like almost anything gives a Garou rage.  For every discipline dot a vamp has, a Garou will have a couple of Gifts.  Even with physical attributes as tertiary, they get pumped heavily while in Crinos.  Mix in fetishes and they just get scary (Fang Dagger is one of my favorites).  A good Garou doesn't need more than a few rounds to shred a coterie.

Of course I liked playing an Ananasi which aren't nearly as tough, but could still easily hold their own.

[Pezzle]

Lets say you are right, how does that change the fact that the systems do not work well together?  Since some kind of balance act is needed in an mmo you might as well throw out t he system and make an entirely new one.

[Lantyssa]

They don't work well, short of tweaking the rules to take the differences of the systems into account.  (Which I've seen done in mixed games, but that's easier with a GM to adjucate.)  I wasn't arguing that, just that vamps lay the smack down.

Really, they don't tend to overlap at all without really stretching plot points.  Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers are the only ones that would have any realistic chance of crossing paths with a Gangrel, much less other clans.

Mixing them would be bad anyways, since it'd be perfectly fine RP for Garou to go leech hunting.  Maybe as a PvP mini-game it'd work, but not if there is unrestricted combat in the open world.

[Modern Angel]

I don't see why they wouldn't tweak the rules heavily. Bloodlines didn't bear much resemblence to oWoD in terms of rules.

Here, though, is an example of why a lot of folks prefer nWoD. It's still a pain in the ass to cross over but it's easier in n than o.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I think you people are confusing what a table top is with what an mmo is.  Anyone who things they are going to wholesale implement rules/strategies or any other such nonsense from the sourcebooks directly into this game are delusional.  Mages will probably be in the game, so will werwolves and as pc's why? because people want to play them.  Rules? What rules?! They are just going to take the names of ab ilities and slap them on to tried and true mmo tropes such as...

1.heal
2.taunt
3.nuke

and variations thereof. Will is be a let down to many fans? sure it will, they want an exact replica of WoD but you are kidding yourself if you think it'll even come close to the same ruleset.  You know how well WAR meshed with warhammer fantasy? Expect that.

[Modern Angel]

Ayup, though they seem to be pretty adamant *right now* about Vampire only.