Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[UnSub]

Here are some people that are part of the problem:
1. People buying Wii Shovelware. (I'm arguing FOR the Wii here)
2. People buying EA football titles. (Exclusivity does Nothing Good for anyone but EA)
3. People buying MMOGs that break no new ground and are a tiny change in the Diku formula. (Seriously, just go play WoW)
4. People who think that hi-def isn't worth the switch. (It is. Reality. Fact.)
5. People who think Halo 3 is the best shooter of the year. (CoD4, Portal, and TF2 wipe their balls with Master Chief's tears)

There's a lot more. But those are off the top of my head. It's not a matter of taste. It's a matter of giving people with the money (the important folks) the wrong impression. That we're willing to put up with, nay, will hand over money for that shit.

In that case, you need to add:

6. People buying games that are buggy and incomplete and have a completely screwed up launch. (HG:L)

[Lucas]

Here are some people that are part of the problem:
1. People buying Wii Shovelware. (I'm arguing FOR the Wii here)
2. People buying EA football titles. (Exclusivity does Nothing Good for anyone but EA)
3. People buying MMOGs that break no new ground and are a tiny change in the Diku formula. (Seriously, just go play WoW)
4. People who think that hi-def isn't worth the switch. (It is. Reality. Fact.)
5. People who think Halo 3 is the best shooter of the year. (CoD4, Portal, and TF2 wipe their balls with Master Chief's tears)

There's a lot more. But those are off the top of my head. It's not a matter of taste. It's a matter of giving people with the money (the important folks) the wrong impression. That we're willing to put up with, nay, will hand over money for that shit.

In that case, you need to add:

6. People buying games that are buggy and incomplete and have a completely screwed up launch. (HG:L)

Yep, especially considering how much positive spin TR is receiving from the press (and reviewers saying that they're actually surprised about how good the game is, at least for now, so their expectations were low) while HG:L, so far, is receiving a lot of (deserved) "MEH" all over the place.

[Venkman]

The masses are not critics. Their frame of reference is different. The whole "critically acclaimed" vs "box office smash" thing. It's the same with all video games. It's the reason sequels work. It's the reason ho-hum shooters like Halo sell while something truly good like TF2 remains relatively niche (compared to Halo). The average gamer is simply not trowling forums all day long looking for nods from professional gamers. They respond to what they see at retail (online or download) and those environments have limited space in which to sell stuff.

People are going to continue to buy Wii shovelware and not care so much about HD because it doesn't matter to them yet. I love HD, but it's just not that relevant when most of the country is lucky to get 12 channels broadcast in it. And I don't even get friggin' NBC in my area. I've gotta wait a few days for this channel "Mojo TV" to pick up the latest Heroes episode so I can watch it in HD.

Its this epic feeling, setting few against many and coming out on top, that drags me back to COH every few months.

Yes, I agree with that. You're dropped into CoX to fight 1:3 at least, almost right away. The first thing you do in WoW for the most part is the much maligned boars/bats/wolves. That is an important distinction for a first-timer. However, the problem CoX has is two fold:

1) In WoW you grow into a roll (depending on class and gear) where you can do this. So you experience the time-honored neophyte-to-god growth that incentifies more play. With CoX, your relative power to appropriate content is about the same.

2) The CoX grind. It doesn't matter if it's gotten less over the years. It's still bad enough to be a turn-off once you hit the teens. WoW time-to-XP remains roughly equal, and with the patch coming next week, it's getting a lot faster from levels 20 to 60.

[Simond]

Except they raid instead of PvP. It is exclusively disdain for a 'popular' game when 'popular' in this instance doesn't mean 'popular' in the Titanic sense. It's viewing the world and the industry through a nerd lens; it's having disdain for a game housewives play and enjoy just as much as foureyes. You need some nerd lens but not exclusively nerd lens

Never read the FoH forums.
No, not because of "lol catass guild" (the FoH boards stopped being about FoH-the-guild about, oh, four or five years ago now), but because there's a (relatively small) cadre of posters there who are convinced that WoW has ruined the MMOG genre because it's popular, because you don't have to grind mobs or sit /lfg for hours, and because the solo->group->raid progression gaps aren't as wide as they like. There's an thread there at the moment called "Has WoW dug it's own grave?" which is basically those people bemoaning the fact that players aren't forced to run UBRS/Strat/etc. then MC/BWL/etc. before they can head to Outland.

Oh, they dress it up with "wasted content" and "mudflation" but what they mean is "Back in EQ there was a strong caste system of Uberguilds 1-3 running the new content, Uberguilds 4-6 and normal guilds 1-4 running one expansion old content, and family guilds raiding two expansions old content...and we liked it!!!". Never mind that anyone who wasn't in Uberguilds 1 - 3 hated it, never mind that EQ capped out at one-twentieth the subs base of WoW because of design decisions like that - nostalgia dictates that EQ was the Greatest Game Ever, and therefore unless a game is identical to old EQ it's obviously a failure.

(Think the Dread Lord era UO fans, but with Brad McQuaid, The Vision, and catassing instead of Raph Koster, instakill hallys of smithing, and CORP POR)


The VG threads over there are amusing, though.

[Rendakor]

1) In WoW you grow into a roll (depending on class and gear) where you can do this. So you experience the time-honored neophyte-to-god growth that incentifies more play. With CoX, your relative power to appropriate content is about the same.

2) The CoX grind. It doesn't matter if it's gotten less over the years. It's still bad enough to be a turn-off once you hit the teens. WoW time-to-XP remains roughly equal, and with the patch coming next week, it's getting a lot faster from levels 20 to 60.

Agreed, with added emphasis. My take on the oft-lamented COH grind is that its not just the time needed to get from 1-50, but the diminishing returns from levels once you hit the early 30s, and stop getting a power every other level. Having to grind 3 levels for a new toy is a pain, and post ED, slot-levels are even less satisfying. It then gets worse at 38 when you finish your secondary, leaving only the fairly weak epic pool powers as the carrot, which come at a rate at one every 3 even-longer-to-gain levels.
There's also no incentive to hit 50 whatsoever except "ding gratz." The final tier epic power can be learned at 47, and whatever you do learn at 50 can't be slotted, unlike most MMOs where max level is a big upgrade. And we all know the lack of endgame...

[AcidCat]

My take on the oft-lamented COH grind is that its not just the time needed to get from 1-50, but the diminishing returns from levels once you hit the early 30s, and stop getting a power every other level. Having to grind 3 levels for a new toy is a pain

Yep, I always thought this was where CoX's lack of loot hurt most. In a loot-centric MMO like WoW, loot functions as rewards between the levels where you get new or upgraded powers. In CoX there are only powers, and the lack of those loot rewards between them makes for longer and longer stretches where you don't get that bite of the carrot to keep you going. I never got past level 24 in CoH, it just felt increasingly pointless.

[Draegan]

Oh, they dress it up with "wasted content" and "mudflation" but what they mean is "Back in EQ there was a strong caste system of Uberguilds 1-3 running the new content, Uberguilds 4-6 and normal guilds 1-4 running one expansion old content, and family guilds raiding two expansions old content...and we liked it!!!". Never mind that anyone who wasn't in Uberguilds 1 - 3 hated it, never mind that EQ capped out at one-twentieth the subs base of WoW because of design decisions like that - nostalgia dictates that EQ was the Greatest Game Ever, and therefore unless a game is identical to old EQ it's obviously a failure.

The VG threads over there are amusing, though.

I read the FOH boards often.  Pure entertainment value.  That dug it's own grave thread is hilarity.  You can see some of my own posts laughing at them.

Definitely have to agree with the VG threads.  Pure entertainment.

On the subject of TR.  When I was BETA testing the game I had fun for the first weekend.  However after the shiny-ness of the new experience wore off, you got the feeling that the Devs were just trying to hard to be either "innovative" or "re-doing WOW".  You could not get into the flow of the game and once I got into the 2nd area for leveling and questing I just gave up.

DIKU or not, whatever your preference is, the one thing these games need is that "carrot".  You need to keep people going, obviously, in a subscription based venture.  I don't think the "raid game" is the answer.  I find that I enjoy reading about raiding more than actually doing it.  I don't have time to follow a schedule and raid 3-5 hours at a clip.  From what I've read, WAR might have some answers in their endgame plans.  However I'm looking for towards AOC to satisfy my appetite next year in the MMORPG genre.

[BigBlack]

Agreed, with added emphasis. My take on the oft-lamented COH grind is that its not just the time needed to get from 1-50, but the diminishing returns from levels once you hit the early 30s, and stop getting a power every other level. Having to grind 3 levels for a new toy is a pain, and post ED, slot-levels are even less satisfying. It then gets worse at 38 when you finish your secondary, leaving only the fairly weak epic pool powers as the carrot, which come at a rate at one every 3 even-longer-to-gain levels.
There's also no incentive to hit 50 whatsoever except "ding gratz." The final tier epic power can be learned at 47, and whatever you do learn at 50 can't be slotted, unlike most MMOs where max level is a big upgrade. And we all know the lack of endgame...

Couldn't this be taken as a positive?  In other words, if people are playing, it means they really *want* to play, that they actually enjoy the game itself and its gameplay, rather than because a skinner box mechanic compels them?  I have a hard time with the idea that advancement, in and of itself, is a form of gameplay.

[Modern Angel]

Agreed, with added emphasis. My take on the oft-lamented COH grind is that its not just the time needed to get from 1-50, but the diminishing returns from levels once you hit the early 30s, and stop getting a power every other level. Having to grind 3 levels for a new toy is a pain, and post ED, slot-levels are even less satisfying. It then gets worse at 38 when you finish your secondary, leaving only the fairly weak epic pool powers as the carrot, which come at a rate at one every 3 even-longer-to-gain levels.
There's also no incentive to hit 50 whatsoever except "ding gratz." The final tier epic power can be learned at 47, and whatever you do learn at 50 can't be slotted, unlike most MMOs where max level is a big upgrade. And we all know the lack of endgame...

Couldn't this be taken as a positive?  In other words, if people are playing, it means they really *want* to play, that they actually enjoy the game itself and its gameplay, rather than because a skinner box mechanic compels them?  I have a hard time with the idea that advancement, in and of itself, is a form of gameplay.

I'm going to tell you the damnedest thing I ever saw in that vein and that was Guild Wars. There's no loot past a relatively early point which does anything for you beyond cosmetic appeal. And people grind for this shit (in fact, for all of Guild Wars' initial claims of no grind it's the grindiest game I ever bothered with) because they love the game. Now, we can discuss whether it's fun for us or not but despite how much I despise the community there was something refreshing about people playing for fun rather than +1% to crit.

[Ratman_tf]

Agreed, with added emphasis. My take on the oft-lamented COH grind is that its not just the time needed to get from 1-50, but the diminishing returns from levels once you hit the early 30s, and stop getting a power every other level. Having to grind 3 levels for a new toy is a pain, and post ED, slot-levels are even less satisfying. It then gets worse at 38 when you finish your secondary, leaving only the fairly weak epic pool powers as the carrot, which come at a rate at one every 3 even-longer-to-gain levels.
There's also no incentive to hit 50 whatsoever except "ding gratz." The final tier epic power can be learned at 47, and whatever you do learn at 50 can't be slotted, unlike most MMOs where max level is a big upgrade. And we all know the lack of endgame...

Couldn't this be taken as a positive?  In other words, if people are playing, it means they really *want* to play, that they actually enjoy the game itself and its gameplay, rather than because a skinner box mechanic compels them?  I have a hard time with the idea that advancement, in and of itself, is a form of gameplay.

Lots of people will get attached to an aspect of the game (their character, their guild, whatever) and play long after the game itself has ceased to be fun for them.

CoX, I think, is pretty insidious in that you can invest a lot of creativity into the appearance of your character... Maybe the game sucks, but you can't leave JapaSchoolSkirt after getting her to look just like Kogome from Inuyasha.

[Venkman]

Couldn't this be taken as a positive?  In other words, if people are playing, it means they really *want* to play, that they actually enjoy the game itself and its gameplay, rather than because a skinner box mechanic compels them?  I have a hard time with the idea that advancement, in and of itself, is a form of gameplay.

Advancement by itself is not gameplay, but it's the big motivator to bother. The game's still gotta be fun though. This is where MMOs are separate from a scratch-ticket Lottery. The compulsion is the same, but in the former you're at least doing something that involves thinking.

[Surlyboi]

This is where MMOs are separate from a scratch-ticket Lottery. The compulsion is the same, but in the former you're at least doing something that involves thinking.

Two words. Barrens Chat.

Two more words, slightly older, Oasis OOC

Sometimes thinking is not necessary for the former either =)

[Venkman]

I knew when I wrote that someone would bring up either Barrens or EC chat :)

The thing is that these really are minority events. You don't need that many people to fill a chat window with crap. You could give the impression that a game is filled with the dregs of society just with 6 or 7 asshats spewing crap for an hour during primetime. They seem large to the uninitiated, but you just need to move to a different zone to see how localized the event actually is. They no more represent the breadth of the playerbase than a gaming forum represents the breadth of gamers everywhere. But the noise level is just enough to give that impression until ya do the math.

[geldonyetich2]

For those who are also living vicariously in a castle of Richard Garriot's creation:

The first big-ass post-release patch[url] (61.2 MB) has been released.  Sure, about the third of it is a known issues list, but hey, it's the thought that counts.

[geldonyetich2]

 

[Oban]

Is there a free demo for this yet?

[geldonyetich2]

Nope.

So, apparently this patch ate my pants.  On the upshot, my persistent cries of, "My pants! Where are my pants?!" have scared the Bane from three outposts and a tailor shop.

[Ghambit]

Pretty significant patch.  Basically doubled server performance.  Folks in differing time zones can now actually play amongst eachother.  The RPers got their beloved /emote command.  Aside from that, it's been basically just fixing broken quests that shouldn't have been broken before release in the 1st place.

I'm still waiting for a damned Auction House along with the re-bulding of the Medic class.  Oh yah, and endgame. 

p.s.
I'm still having fun though, oddly.

[amiable]

The game really grows on you...  I discovered today that my level 26 biotech can take out stalkers which have been one-two shotting me by circle strafing and using my injector gun.  It's far more interactive and challenging PvE then my previous experiences of "press the following 3 buttons in sequence."  PvP is still fubared with Spies being totally unstoppable and everyone else being meh.  I imagine the nerfbat is going to hit them pretty hard.

[Falconeer]

It may sound as a provocation but it's not (not completely), more like honest curiousity. What does this game offer that it's better than HellGate London? Larger maps?

I wanted to like Tabula Rasa and I still could do in the future. But as long as it plays like a less engaging HG:L, in my book it has to do much more than just being the lousy MMO version of  the Flagship title.

[amiable]

I'm not sure what to say.  I played both TR and HG:L and I found TR's gameplay more engaging than Hellgate.  The world is larger, the missions (especially the instances) are very fun. 

HG:L reminded me a lot of Diablo (and I did love that game), but there really isn't much to it but building a character and repeating the same strategy over and over again while picking up shiny loot.  Sure thats fun, but you basically play the same way against almost everything.  In TR I felt there was a great deal of differentiation between enemies.  Hit and run, cover tactics, and proper positioning are very important.  Different groups will have different kill orders. 

The instances in TR (at least the initial ones) are quite frankly some of the best designed instances I have ever played in an MMORPG from a "fun" perspective.  You can either get a group and house through them, or do it solo and have to use a lot of skill and strategy to complete.

Let me turn the question around, why is HG:L superior in gameplay?  Is it more diverse items and a better developed skill tree?  I think that is a fair criticism of TR, but in my mind "more" does not mean "better."  Even in TR I keep all my action bars full of gear and have about a dozen spaces in my backpack devoted to different weapon and armor types I pull out for different situations.

But don't take my word for it, in general TR has been getting terrific reviews whereas HG:L has not.  You really need to play to about level 20 and solo some of the palisades/divide instances to find out how engrossing it is, even at this stage.

[Falconeer]

Let me turn the question around, why is HG:L superior in gameplay?

Fair enough.

I am under the impression that the time I spend doing what I do in those game (killing mobiles) is more fun in HGL than in TR. Meaning better sounds, nicer visuals, more responsive controls, more satisfying audio-video stimuli and all in all a quicker and strongest combat experience. The loot enriches it, the combat, giving you the impression that the game changes (while it's not) only because you are wielding something different and killing monsters with a different coloured effect. But that's magic! That's THE magic, which many games tried to recapture and failed, including MMORPG.

While I agree that TR could be great (that's the part about me wanting to like it) as a "wider, larger, deeper, persistent Hellgate", or as one if not the first action diku, to me it looks like the usual dikuish MMORPG (again, after 10 years) with a more engaging than usual form of combat. Its main problem being the bland dikuish part and, for me, the resemblance to the HellGate combat (and aesthetics) without not even half of the "oomph".

That overshadows every other TR's feature.

For now.
Because if there's something that really puzzles me about HGL is how it will manage to justify a monthly subscription based on such a repetitive kind of gameplay.

Hit and run, cover tactics, and proper positioning are very important.

This is what I was looking for in the beta and couldn't find, with the cover concept being great on paper and poorly implemented in game. But for your line I just quoted, I promise to pick it up again in a few months to see if it's improved enough for my unsatisfied loins.

[Surlyboi]

HG:L bores me to tears sadly. And despite my protestations in the past about it, I really wanted to like it more than I do. I play it and think, "I wanted 'Split Second' meets 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and got neither". TR on the other hand, while not groundbreaking in any significant way is actually keeping me involved. I actually kinda care about my sniper's exploits sneaking around behind enemy lines popping high value Bane targets and then barely getting out alive (or not) when all hell breaks loose.

And that first sunrise on Arieki? Breathtaking. Just don't stand there too long or a strider'll stomp a mud hole in your ass.

And, of course, YMMV.

[Ratman_tf]

It may sound as a provocation but it's not (not completely), more like honest curiousity. What does this game offer that it's better than HellGate London? Larger maps?

I wanted to like Tabula Rasa and I still could do in the future. But as long as it plays like a less engaging HG:L, in my book it has to do much more than just being the lousy MMO version of  the Flagship title.

One thing I will say for Tabula Rasa, there were a handful of quests that actually got my attention. Like the one where the Bane alien asks for the cure to a plague that you got in a previous mission. He made an interesting point, and I actually thought about wether it would be good or bad to give him the cure, instead of delivering it to the AFS allies.

I told him "no" and scragged his ass...

That quest was a little more interesting, not because of the "moral quandry" but because the Bane stepped out of the bushes while I was talking to an AFS soldier. That got my attention.

I like both games, actually. But I am playing Hellgate London now because neither - at this point - I feel is worth a subscription fee. And Hellgate lets me play without one.

[Nija]

I'm not sure how anyone could play TR past that 'blow up the wall' mission at the very beginning. Where the explosion doesn't hurt you or the NPC guy standing 3 ft away from it.

I'm pretty sure quake 2 had more going for it than TR does. Equal graphics, too.

[Miasma]

I'm not sure how anyone could play TR past that 'blow up the wall' mission at the very beginning. Where the explosion doesn't hurt you or the NPC guy standing 3 ft away from it.

You have a picture of a TF2 pyro for your avatar, the guy who spends half his time shooting a flame thrower point blank at his own team to see if they are spies.  I shall file that under ironic.

[geldonyetich2]

For what it's worth, through the rest of the game if you stand too close to explosions you will get knocked back.  Sometimes off 20 story cliffs.

[schild]

I'm not sure how anyone could play TR past that 'blow up the wall' mission at the very beginning. Where the explosion doesn't hurt you or the NPC guy standing 3 ft away from it.

You have a picture of a TF2 pyro for your avatar, the guy who spends half his time shooting a flame thrower point blank at his own team to see if they are spies.  I shall file that under ironic.

I'll file it under "fun."

[Hoax]

Personally I'll file comparing TR to TF2 under fucking sacreligious...

[schild]

Personally I'll file comparing TR to TF2 under fucking sacreligious...

Yes, this too. ^^

[Surlyboi]

Yes, let's remember torching your own team is fun. 

[Ratman_tf]

Tabula Rasa is better than WoW!

But is it bigger than the Beatles?

[schild]

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

And for some reason I bet NCSoft is all "GREAT SUCCESS."

[geldonyetich2]

[quote author=Ratman_tf link=topic=10842.msg368268#msg368268 date=1195181797Tabula Rasa is better than WoW![/quote]
Set parameter "Has Elves = Lose" and yes, Tabula Rasa will emerge as better than WoW... until Forean hybrids become a playable race.  Doh!

[Jamiko]

I'm not sure how anyone could play TR past that 'blow up the wall' mission at the very beginning. Where the explosion doesn't hurt you or the NPC guy standing 3 ft away from it.

Just for fun I planted the explosives and didn't move. The explosion sent me flying and did damage to me. This happened a few minutes ago.