Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[Slayerik]

schild: \o/ MMOs sucks, omg listen to me.

Mr. Bloodworth: Please explain why MMOs suck.

schild: OMFG they suck, were you not listening to me? Even worse, LOTR is a horrible gamer IP.

Mr. Blood: What makes it so horrible?

schild: WTF, cant you read? MMOs suck !




Seriously, schild is as worthwhile to talk to as I am these days. Cept I just spout shit about FFA/loot PVP and he just spouts off how bad all MMOs suck.

And for the record, LOTR IP is not that bad. Its just the game is not fun.

For good IPs, I'd say Wing Commander...Mechwarrior / Battletech maybe.... I'd say Syndicate but thats not really an IP.

[schild]

That is pure speculation on your part unless you bid on it yourself. EA and UBISoft have no demonstrable interest in making MMOGs. EA made some bucks on RTS LotR games so it wasn't that they thought the IP was bad, although one could argue EA just wanted to play the movie hype.

Wrong.

Thats not true, lol. Unless your speaking about gammers, in that reguard, i would give a little on that. Then again...DnD?

Video gamers. Even with DND for video gamers, it depends on the setting. Even DND gamers don't care about the setting they used for the game. Or at least, that's what I got from the conversations had on the net. Also, yea, gamers would have had more interest if there'd been, you know, dungeon masters, or a reasonable story. D&D isn't built for MMOGs the way their structured at this point, they're far too rigid for a pure D&D playset.

As for the blockbuster point, there's no need to even discuss it. WoW has 10M + boxes of the original campaign sold, 10M+ subscribers, and no one else except FFXI has broken 500k by any reasonable amount, or for the most part gotten anywhere near it. So uhm, I don't know, let's call a blockbuster an arbitrary 1.5M + boxes sold. Seems reasonable. Considering how shitty the genre has become. I'm not going to lower the bar because the playfield is full of retards.

Seriously, schild is as worthwhile to talk to as I am these days. Cept I just spout shit about FFA/loot PVP and he just spouts off how bad all MMOs suck.

Don't compare me to you. It makes me uncomfortable.

And for the record, LOTR IP is not that bad. Its just the game is not fun.

I'll sit patiently to be proven otherwise. But that'll never happen. Because it's a terrible license for an MMOG.

For good IPs, I'd say Wing Commander...Mechwarrior / Battletech maybe.... I'd say Syndicate but thats not really an IP.

Oh, my bad. You're fucking crazy.

[Mrbloodworth]

And for the record, LOTR IP is not that bad. Its just the game is not fun.

For good IPs, I'd say Wing Commander...Mechwarrior / Battletech maybe.... I'd say Syndicate but thats not really an IP.

I would love any of those, if executed correctly. Add to the list, Dune, LEXX (lol), Robotech.

[Mrbloodworth]

That is pure speculation on your part unless you bid on it yourself. EA and UBISoft have no demonstrable interest in making MMOGs. EA made some bucks on RTS LotR games so it wasn't that they thought the IP was bad, although one could argue EA just wanted to play the movie hype.

Wrong.

Thats not true, lol. Unless your speaking about gammers, in that reguard, i would give a little on that. Then again...DnD?

Video gamers. Even with DND for video gamers, it depends on the setting. Even DND gamers don't care about the setting they used for the game. Or at least, that's what I got from the conversations had on the net. Also, yea, gamers would have had more interest if there'd been, you know, dungeon masters, or a reasonable story. D&D isn't built for MMOGs the way their structured at this point, they're far too rigid for a pure D&D playset.

As for the blockbuster point, there's no need to even discuss it. WoW has 10M + boxes of the original campaign sold, 10M+ subscribers, and no one else except FFXI has broken 500k by any reasonable amount, or for the most part gotten anywhere near it. So uhm, I don't know, let's call a blockbuster an arbitrary 1.5M + boxes sold. Seems reasonable. Considering how shitty the genre has become. I'm not going to lower the bar because the playfield is full of retards.

Seriously, schild is as worthwhile to talk to as I am these days. Cept I just spout shit about FFA/loot PVP and he just spouts off how bad all MMOs suck.

Don't compare me to you. It makes me uncomfortable.

And for the record, LOTR IP is not that bad. Its just the game is not fun.

I'll sit patiently to be proven otherwise. But that'll never happen. Because it's a terrible license for an MMOG.

For good IPs, I'd say Wing Commander...Mechwarrior / Battletech maybe.... I'd say Syndicate but thats not really an IP.

Oh, my bad. You're fucking crazy.

Reason i bring up DnD, is not the Online game, but the PnP game, and its relation to the LOTR works.

[Morfiend]

Star Wars was a terrible MMO license.

Not true. The time frame they chose was horrible. If they had used the KotOR time frame, it would have been pretty damn cool. Or hell, any Star Wars time frame that wasnt the movies.

I said from day one, that the time they placed the game at was probably the single worst time they could have chosen.

[schild]

And for the record, LOTR IP is not that bad. Its just the game is not fun.

For good IPs, I'd say Wing Commander...Mechwarrior / Battletech maybe.... I'd say Syndicate but thats not really an IP.

I would love any of those, if executed correctly. Add to the list, Dune, LEXX (lol), Robotech.

This is why we don't agree. You're in a camp with Slayerik, that should stay hella far away from ever making a decision on the setting of an MMOG.

Not true. The time frame they chose was horrible. If they had used the KotOR time frame, it would have been pretty damn cool. Or hell, any Star Wars time frame that wasnt the movies.

I said from day one, that the time they placed the game at was probably the single worst time they could have chosen.

Can't be Han Solo? Can't be any of 50 major characters, fanbois won't play it, word won't spread, as such, you might as well not pay for the license and just create something similar without a huge stable of heroes. Actually, I take that one bit back, the fanbois might be the only ones who will play it. KOTOR didn't sell _that_many_copies_ btw, and no way would the mmog be more successful than the console/pc title.

[shiznitz]

That is pure speculation on your part unless you bid on it yourself. EA and UBISoft have no demonstrable interest in making MMOGs. EA made some bucks on RTS LotR games so it wasn't that they thought the IP was bad, although one could argue EA just wanted to play the movie hype.

Wrong.

EA had to purchase an existing studio to get back in the game. You think what they paid for Mythic < the development costs of a new MMOG? I don't. That means they had no confidence in thier own ability, IP or no IP.

I don't know what MMO UBISoft is working on/funding.

[pxib]

I'm with schild here, and I don't know his reasoning but here's mine:

Movies and large novels are about a powerful story arc with a few characters out to save the world. Any player of a MMOG would like to be doing the same thing, but in the storyline of those novels and movies the main characters are already doing that and a PC can't be them. The world is already being saved, or has already been saved, or is going to be saved some day... but not by you. So in addition to the F.G. Superman problem inherent to all things massively multiplayer, there are even bigger heroes out doing the even bigger work.

The last thing these games need is NPCs reminding you of what every other player already has: You're nobody special.

Better IPs would be long-running episodic television or comics. Small, interesting stories in a large and multi-faceted world.

[Soukyan]

Controls seem similar to Neocron. I remember that opening windows in Neocron also disabled mouse movement because it changed to a pointer, but when the windows were closed, the controls were more like an FPS... sort of. I still need to watch the remainder of the video, but the work day is over and it's sunny. More later...

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm with schild here, and I don't know his reasoning but here's mine:

Movies and large novels are about a powerful story arc with a few characters out to save the world. Any player of a MMOG would like to be doing the same thing, but in the storyline of those novels and movies the main characters are already doing that and a PC can't be them. The world is already being saved, or has already been saved, or is going to be saved some day... but not by you. So in addition to the F.G. Superman problem inherent to all things massively multiplayer, there are even bigger heroes out doing the even bigger work.

The last thing these games need is NPCs reminding you of what every other player already has: You're nobody special.

Better IPs would be long-running episodic television or comics. Small, interesting stories in a large and multi-faceted world.

Hummm, you know, that has never been my motivation for playing a MMO. May be why i liked the SWG-pre-CU times, before they added "Your the hero" like aspects, i wanted to make my own story, with my friends, in that world, and thats why i still play MMO's.

You couldn't pay me to be Luke, Frodo, Spider man... Because i may not have made the same choices as them, and i allready know how it ends, my story on the other hand....

[TripleDES]

Now that the NDA is gone, can anyone actually post some screenshots that aren't firefights in rocky landscapes? You know, show something that's actually scifi, like city scenery and shit like that?

[pxib]

Hummm, you know, that has never been my motivation for playing a MMO. May be why i liked the SWG-pre-CU times, before they added "Your the hero" like aspects, i wanted to make my own story, with my friends, in that world, and thats why i still play MMO's.

You couldn't pay me to be Luke, Frodo, Spider man... Because i may not have made the same choices as them, and i allready know how it ends, my story on the other hand....

Then no company making a MMO for you should be worried about IP at all. They just need to make an interesting world for you to make your own story in... and if they invent their own rather than buying somebody else's then no fanbois show up to tell them they've screwed up.

So SWG and LoTR are still crappy IP choices.

[Arthur_Parker]

IP is a double edged sword, it seems much safer to make a mmorpg based on a game rather than a book or a movie with well known characters.  LOTRO and SWG are good backdrops but both restrict the actors you can play on centerstage (Jedi, wizards), game ip's don't have a problem with random idiots being in control.

[Modern Angel]

Let's say this game flops and opens to terrible reviews. In a larger sense where does Garriott go from there? Because I know we all enjoyed Ultima and/o Ultima Online but he's not precisely setting the world aflame the past several years. Is he done?

[Falwell]

Let's say this game flops and opens to terrible reviews. In a larger sense where does Garriott go from there? Because I know we all enjoyed Ultima and/o Ultima Online but he's not precisely setting the world aflame the past several years. Is he done?

He'll nurse his new baby for a couple years to be sure. As to his future? Depends very much on his success now. Imo, assuming TR doesn't tank Sigil style, I'd think Garriot has one more in him before he calls it quits.

[Amaron]

Star Wars was a terrible MMO license.
Matrix as well.
Oh, and obviously, LOTRO.

I can agree those suck as licenses in many ways but only if you are saying that Star Wars in the same setting as the movies is horrible for an MMO.   The Kotor setting could be good if it took place a few centuries after Kotor 1 or some such.

DDO could have been good, but they licensed one of the worst realms to base it in. They should have bought Planescape, hell, even Dragonlance would have been better.

I concur on everything but Dragonlance.  Dragonlance has too many problems to make a proper MMO.  Forgotten Realms is a great setting for an MMO but it has way too much background story that would get in the way constantly.   Planar traveling with epic levels would of been the best choice by far.

[Grublet]

The reward for delivery is 10K cash which is a ton of money when you are that low level given how fricking expensive ammo is so it was a trivial choice to just do the deliveries.

See, this is why I found it a good decision node. It's too bad the money was trivialized, because SO many people said "Oh, it's a no-brainer!" Well, sure, if you put monetary gratification over your morals, of course it is. The tough decision was to do the right thing and not make the easy money. Really sorry they changed that, it was one of my favorite things.

It's been changed to 1k now instead of 10k.

[pxib]

I can agree those suck as licenses in many ways but only if you are saying that Star Wars in the same setting as the movies is horrible for an MMO.   The Kotor setting could be good if it took place a few centuries after Kotor 1 or some such.

If you say Star Wars to 99.9999% of American consumers, they'll think of the movies. If you say it to gamers we just drop the 9's after the decimal point. LEGO Star Wars 2 (the one based on the trilogy people liked) sold almost as many boxes in its first week as the original KotOR sold EVER. Get past that "you won't be playing the movies" and you still run into the Jedi problem that Mr. Parker mentions.

People who buy the license for Star Wars so that they can impress the fans of the novels need their heads examined.

[Merusk]

Let's say this game flops and opens to terrible reviews. In a larger sense where does Garriott go from there? Because I know we all enjoyed Ultima and/o Ultima Online but he's not precisely setting the world aflame the past several years. Is he done?

He'll nurse his new baby for a couple years to be sure. As to his future? Depends very much on his success now. Imo, assuming TR doesn't tank Sigil style, I'd think Garriot has one more in him before he calls it quits.

He was done years ago, you all just wanted to blame it on EA rather than him.  Sorry.

He'll be better off consulting and guest lecturing at the various game dev programs springing up everywhere.

[Evildrider]

OK, then. Name a superior gaming license to LOTR.

Yes, LOTRO is doing quite well. I thought it was boringtown too, but it sold subscriptions.

Mechwarrior/Battletech MMO, would rule all... don't deny it.

[Trippy]

Yes, yes it would.

[Grublet]

He'll be better off consulting and guest lecturing at the various game dev programs springing up everywhere.

What will be his lecture topic? "How Not To Be Relevant"?

[schild]

He'll be better off consulting and guest lecturing at the various game dev programs springing up everywhere.

What will be his lecture topic? "How Not To Be Relevant"?

<lowblow>I'm with Raph.</lowblow>

I'm here all week.

[Grublet]

He'll be better off consulting and guest lecturing at the various game dev programs springing up everywhere.

What will be his lecture topic? "How Not To Be Relevant"?

<lowblow>I'm with Raph.</lowblow>

I'm here all week.

Add Bartle and shake well.

[taolurker]

Waaay too much IP debating going on in this thread, and not enough NDA removal information about the original topic Tabula Rasa.

I'd say this thread was in danger of being derailed, but then again every thread here is like that, which saddens and disturbs me.

Why can't one thread be about a single game, and maybe not mention the other games that already have 150 threads of their own? I was reading this to hear about TR, not WoW or LotR, but yah know, whatever.

MORE TR INFO, AND START A NEW THREAD FOR IP DEBATING.

PS You fookers never stay on topic (F13.net the new Morlocks, now with more spam on the rails).

[Amaron]

Get past that "you won't be playing the movies" and you still run into the Jedi problem that Mr. Parker mentions.

You don't run into any Jedi problems in the time period I mentioned.  That was the specific reason I mentioned that time frame.  At that point in time it's perfectly reasonable for everyone and their mother to be a Jedi.

People who buy the license for Star Wars so that they can impress the fans of the novels need their heads examined.

So?  That has nothing to do with making Star Wars games in a different time period.  Kotor obviously proved the viability of taking pretty much any time period and slapping lightsaber + jedi on it = money hats.   

[Venkman]

Couple of things:

I once argued SWG's timeframe was wrong too, but have changed my mind. To get the budget and attention, it had no choice but to be part of something bigger, the ties with the movies.

It matters less that people couldn't play the heroes than that the combat wasn't fun. This is similar to LoTRO's problem. There are many MANY games outside the genre for IP where people can play the hero. But just like the unique aspects of other genres, in MMORPGs, it's pretty much expected that you don't get to be that hero. And that expectation is communicated to newbies who either adapt and stay or leave, just like people who adapt and stay in other genres, or leave.

Other IPs have their own problems, and the most obvious ones are already under way. If they don't gain any sustainability, then I think major IP holders will look to different ways of going into online gaming. These games are too expensive to do on a whim, and I can't see major IP holders accepting the visceral downgrade in their brand presentation required for a Flash/browser game. So I expect more creativity, probably an array of experiences tied together across various experiences. A single persistent-state static-content environment only works for a few things, as keeps getting proven. You gotta like the world, and most IP really isn't about that.

When did WoW break 10mil worldwide accounts?

When did SWG ever get anywhere over 275k?

It's a measure of TR that this thread is mostly about everything else. It's the same problem with LoTRO. After the accepted "meh", there just really isn't anything to talk about.

And as to RG, I really don't know how much involved he's had in the day-to-day of development of TR. See all of the traveling and interviews he's done talking about stuff not in the game in any meaningful way. I don't know what he will do next, but I don't think he'll suddenly stop traveling and start producing TR content. Mostly because I don't know how much of a direct hand he's had in the last year.

Mechwarrior/Battletech MMO, would rule all... don't deny it.

What ever happened to NC's Exteel?

[pxib]

Waaay too much IP debating going on in this thread, and not enough NDA removal information about the original topic Tabula Rasa.

My cousin got into the beta and said it was a lot of fun for three days... then he was sorry that he was part of the Beta because those three days meant he wasn't going to buy the game and get to play it with his friends. There was nothing left to do.

Mechwarrior/Battletech MMO, would rule all... don't deny it.

Would it be any better than Planetside? Are the mecha just that inherently fun? Are the clans and storyline really so fascinating and well-defined that you'd want those worldy aspects tacked onto what is already a fun and varied selection of not-so-massively multiplayer games?

Generally this whole IP mess is the same mistake that Hollywood makes all the time. A good movie comes out and the studio bigwigs dissect which genres it covered, which stars it had, and the size of its special effects budget. Then they produce a bunch of flops with the same ingredients.

People are fond of genres, have favorite stars, and tend to like the epic visuals... but what makes money is good movies.

I want to play a good MMORPG. I don't care whether it's about vampires in 16th century Europe, cartoon pigs in modern Happyville, or  Mormons in 19th century Illinois. Are my friends playing it? Do I see a little and want to play more? Is it, y'know, fun?

[lamaros]

There is some good Book IP that isn't driven by characters.

LotRO is all about characters, thus it's going to fail if your guaranteed audience is only there for them.

But only in a MMO. You don't have this problem in an single player game because you don't have competition for involvement with these characters.

I'm not really sure I'm agreeing with schild, but LotR is not necessarily good MMO IP.

[Kitsune]

I patched my copy of TR up last night, and they've made progress on fixing the lag, it wasn't as bad as it has been before.  It also had more quests, which lead to more experience and a slightly less grindy play experience.  An improvement across the board, but still not one that I'd be inclined to pay a monthly sub for.

[Trippy]

Mechwarrior/Battletech MMO, would rule all... don't deny it.

Would it be any better than Planetside? Are the mecha just that inherently fun?

Yes, yes they are.

[Falwell]

As if the uniforms and general cos-play acts weren't disturbing enough, check out what our crazy eccentric General British did for his latest TR press event....

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/tabula-rasa/818778p1.html

To be so loaded that you don't have to give a fuck about anythng. Must be a helluva life.

[WindupAtheist]

I've said it before, but since everyone else is repeating themselves...

SWG.

Set it the day after Return of the Jedi ends, and disregard the existing EU novels/comics/crap.  Don't just disregard it, pitch the freedom (and resulting room for player impact) as a feature.  Star Wars nerds would eat that "Be a part of a new continuity!" line like it was candy, and "The movies end as your story begins!" is a very simple, soundbite-friendly marketing concept that even casuals can grasp instantly.

Then you can do whatever you want.  Jedi, no Jedi, Sith, whatever.  You can have Han and Leia and Chewie running around, you can have Lando giving out newbie quests, you can do anything.  The actual EU had Palpatine's ghost possess a clone body so he could run around swordfighting and shit.  If Star Wars EU nerds didn't rebel at THAT, they certainly won't rebel at anything story-related you may engineer to facilitate game development.

[Merusk]

Waaay too much IP debating going on in this thread, and not enough NDA removal information about the original topic Tabula Rasa.

I'd say this thread was in danger of being derailed, but then again every thread here is like that, which saddens and disturbs me.

Why can't one thread be about a single game, and maybe not mention the other games that already have 150 threads of their own? I was reading this to hear about TR, not WoW or LotR, but yah know, whatever.

MORE TR INFO, AND START A NEW THREAD FOR IP DEBATING.

PS You fookers never stay on topic (F13.net the new Morlocks, now with more spam on the rails).

When things go off the rails this badly this soon.. it's because there's nothing to discuss.  You want to discuss TR, you're going to have to find a group of folks who aren't bored with it after 3 posts.  Even if I hadn't made my own contributions, or seen it for myself that would have told me enough about it.  AVOID AVOID AVOID.

The same thing happened with DDO, albeit DDO threads lasted a smidge longer before getting derailed.   That's not a good thing.

[Xerapis]

Mechwarrior/Battletech MMO, would rule all... don't deny it.

Would it be any better than Planetside? Are the mecha just that inherently fun?

Yes, yes they are.

Agreed.  I played PNP Mechwarrior and Battletech for all four years of college with a regular gaming group.  We tried other systems, but always came back to the mechs.

Seriously.  The gameplay could suck and I would probably still plunk down my small money to keep playing a Battletech MMO.

Personal preference: 3025.