Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[Venkman]

Heh, the NDA drops on the day I'm almost completely offline. Did manage to keep up with the lurking though. Damnable cellphone typing...

Everything everyone has said I pretty much agree with. Great details covered already. My opinion is more at the esoteric level though.

Adding the "RG" name to this title did not make it the sort of game you'd expect from one with his name on it. It's not so much the Star Wars idea vs SimBeru implementation, but it's not far off. RG is a brand for, basically, us. And what we'd expect is something more worldy, where the "cool and unique" combat system was intended to add depth of play to a larger and more dynamic living breathing world of choice and accountability.

I mentioned a few weeks ago a disconnect between the PR for this title and the actual game the testers were playing. It's actually more fundamental than that. So much was first released to the press and then introduced to the testers, but even that wasn't much of an issue. It is more that all of the high-sounding ideas of accountability and moving battle lines and the like really has never been apparent across the whole game. Rather, it's all very much normal static DIKU.

• You have objective givers, dense content areas, quest progressions that lead you to such areas and new objective givers, the usual round of things.
• Crafting changed completely but is still just serving the same purpose as it does in a DIKU.
• Tiered class choices is just pre-Pub 19 EQ2 without the need to play from scratch.
• Skills and stat choices are WoW talents.
• It's all about the gear and how that affects your damage output, not the things you'd expect like targeting and the usual FPS skills. People have pointed out that the videos always showed characters standing in one spot while shooting. That's the game.
  
  

None of this would matter except that the expectations set by interviews and PR just don't connect with what actually is.

Then there's the stuff I was personally looking for, like the world. Way back in May I asked where the it was. This is humanity's last hope and we have an economy? Where's the resources to build this stuff? How are we technologically progressing when humanity's tech seems largely incompatible with our "allies"? Where's the population centers? Where are the children, the world itself, the thing we're fighting to save? This element has never been introduced. We're all the last generation of humanity ever, fighting because we would rather live until killed than just end it ourselves. I never got any sense of there being anything more than a series of progressive battlegrounds. That's fine if it's an FPS. But "RG" does not connote a long series of pointless battles across varying degrees of landscapes. I did propose they reshift the opening sequence to take place in a city being invaded on Earth. Start people in a tutorial where they learn the controls while retreating, Halo style. Failing that, start people in Continental Divide. It's in that area when the game does start feeling more like Starship Troopers, in a good way.

None of this stuff matters to many I'm sure. But the better MMOGs are much more self-consistent than TR is. Even if a player doesn't recognize why the game is improved through complete self-consistently, they'd probably recognize when it wasn't, insofar as asking themselves why they don't like it.

I think it looks fine on top-end rig. Some of the wierd latency stuff is an issue, but this isn't billed as a PvP game. Adding that late in the day doesn't change that it's all about the PvE. It can be fun in short spurts but it's not an omgmustachieve type experience.

No guesses on its success.

[Trippy]

I dunno, I couldn't make it to level 6.  It just generated a huge "BLAH" from me.  For as long as it's been in dev and as hyped as people have been about, "OOOH RICHARD," the game certainly felt bland.

I didn't see any of the quest "choices" you people are talking about.  They come later, I guess.  All I saw was a bunch of "go here, kill x, bring me their spleens" and "run this message over yonder, past the level 12 mobs that'll eat your face."  Logos were way too powerful at low level, as well.  I could empty my clip (as a soldier) into a monster, reload and fire another few rounds or just cast one spell and kill the mob.  Mmmmm k.

There's at least two before you get to level 10. One is the drug delivery mission that's already been mentioned. The reward for delivery is 10K cash which is a ton of money when you are that low level given how fricking expensive ammo is so it was a trivial choice to just do the deliveries. Now that drop rates have increased by an order of magnitude or more money is not quite as much an issue as it was back then. There's another early one involving a Forean deserter. That one was bugged so I could never complete it.

[Trippy]

They should change the name to Auto Assault 2 at this rate.

Fortunately for NCsoft it is not as bad as Auto Assault.

[Trippy]

For me its the graphics lag during combat, or maybe its just piss poor animation, can't be sure. I kill a mob, and he remains standing for a good 4 seconds before falling over despite having the 'I'm dead' icon floating above his head. What's up with that? If one part of the server knows the mob is dead, how hard is it to push the 'fall over' animation along with it?

If you are talking about the red skull. You are supposed to run up, and hit the melee key to perform "Finisher". Its just a small window to do so.If you leave it, they will "Fall over". But not knowing that, does make it seem like a bug.

No he's talking about mobs that are dead but are still standing. Happens quite a bit. I even ran across a Stalker like that once (damn killing stealing NPCs I was trying to kill it!).

[Signe]

Having been in both beta tests, I agree that it is better than Auto Assault.  Now here is Spaz Cat for your entertainment. 

[Falwell]

To go along with the website revamp and the NDA drop they also announced the official release date. October 19th shelves, October 16th pre-order early access.

http://www.playtr.com/news/latest_news/afs_intel_declassified.html

[sam, an eggplant]

No guesses on its success.

I hesitate to guess too, having been so wrong on LOTRO.

But, I mean... I just don't see how it could possibly succeed. LOTRO had the best license imaginable, the setting was elves and orcs, and it was polished more than any MMO but WoW. Tabula Rasa has a silly pretentious name, generic sci-fi setting, and the closest they got to polish was a german QA guy, Hans.

[Venkman]

TR is more of a "unique" experience than LoTRO was though. There's some cache they can get from that alone. But the brand is being pushed (PR, interviews) in ways at odds with the actual experience (gameplay, tester feedback). I don't know why they dropped the NDA. I would have thought they'd go the SWG route of never dropping it. No good can come from it in my opinion when even the journalists who could talk about it reported an aggregate "meh".

There's at least two before you get to level 10. One is the drug delivery mission that's already been mentioned. The reward for delivery is 10K cash which is a ton of money when you are that low level given how fricking expensive ammo is so it was a trivial choice to just do the deliveries. Now that drop rates have increased by an order of magnitude or more money is not quite as much an issue as it was back then. There's another early one involving a Forean deserter. That one was bugged so I could never complete it.

In the technical sense, these are missions with choice. In the sense implied by all the interviews with RG about TR, the accountability often hawked, they very much are not. And this is a perception problem because with that sort of hype, people are going to look for something that doesn't exist nearly enough in TR to call a critical part of the total experience.

After one of more recent wipes, I avoided both and still never had a problem with ammo (always stayed away from chaingun anyway).

[schild]

LOTRO had the best license imaginable, the setting was elves and orcs, and it was polished more than any MMO but WoW. Tabula Rasa has a silly pretentious name, generic sci-fi setting, and the closest they got to polish was a german QA guy, Hans.

LOTRO did not have the best license available. How many gamers give a fuck about Lord of the Rings. In fact, it's such Not an Amazing license that EA scrapped The White Council and the other LOTRO adventure games didn't do _all_that_amazingly_. Basically, popular books, popular movies, not so great for gaming. Stories about Walking don't translate well. Also, I don't see LOTR's millions of fans as gamers and I don't see gamers as frothing LOTR fanbois.

[lamaros]

LotRO did well? Is it keeping it up?

My 3 miniutes of beta showed it was boringtown, if it manages lasting success we wont see a good MMO for decades.

[Sky]

People have pointed out that the videos always showed characters standing in one spot while shooting. That's the game.

To be fair, this is not how I played a lot of the time. Some mobs had insane one-shot-kill melee attacks and I'd keep on the move to avoid that, or to get optimal positioning for burst or cone damage patterns. Positioning also played a role, I remember starting out with the pistol and crouching would give damage bonuses, so it was (and I do hesitate to use the reference lest anyone get the idea this is a skill-based traditional fps) kind of like Battlefield 1942 where you'd get accuracy bonuses for crouching to fire. Run, crouch, fire, run. It was for different reasons, but the mechanic was in the game. Also, as had been mentioned, cover has some meaning, and if you watch a firefight in the more "realistic" fps style games, there's not a lot of running around, people will hunker down behind cover. If you want to compare it to a bunnytard game, then yes, there's a lot less movement.

Where's the population centers? Where are the children, the world itself, the thing we're fighting to save? This element has never been introduced. We're all the last generation of humanity ever, fighting because we would rather live until killed than just end it ourselves. I never got any sense of there being anything more than a series of progressive battlegrounds

Isn't that the point? That we're reduced to a series of running battles and shacking up with the sentients that will shelter us from the storm in return for fighting the Bane? That there are no population centers, that Earth was decimated, that we're on the run but fighting until we can't fight any more?

On the tech front, I never had latency problems except for one patch that was hotfixed. I did, however, play on a high end computer (at the time, heh).

omgmustachieve

OMGMUSTACHE :P The hairy-faced one approves of this new slang.

The reward for delivery is 10K cash which is a ton of money when you are that low level given how fricking expensive ammo is so it was a trivial choice to just do the deliveries.

See, this is why I found it a good decision node. It's too bad the money was trivialized, because SO many people said "Oh, it's a no-brainer!" Well, sure, if you put monetary gratification over your morals, of course it is. The tough decision was to do the right thing and not make the easy money. Really sorry they changed that, it was one of my favorite things.

[sam, an eggplant]

OK, then. Name a superior gaming license to LOTR.

Yes, LOTRO is doing quite well. I thought it was boringtown too, but it sold subscriptions.

[Trippy]

To be fair, this is not how I played a lot of the time. Some mobs had insane one-shot-kill melee attacks and I'd keep on the move to avoid that, or to get optimal positioning for burst or cone damage patterns. Positioning also played a role, I remember starting out with the pistol and crouching would give damage bonuses, so it was (and I do hesitate to use the reference lest anyone get the idea this is a skill-based traditional fps) kind of like Battlefield 1942 where you'd get accuracy bonuses for crouching to fire. Run, crouch, fire, run. It was for different reasons, but the mechanic was in the game. Also, as had been mentioned, cover has some meaning, and if you watch a firefight in the more "realistic" fps style games, there's not a lot of running around, people will hunker down behind cover. If you want to compare it to a bunnytard game, then yes, there's a lot less movement.

The problem with the cover and crouching mechanics is that there is no feedback that they are in fact doing anything. You might think crouching is giving you a damage bonus but how do you know? The UI gives you absolutely no feedback that that is the case and unless you have a pen and paper handy and can quickly write down damage figures and compare the data you don't know for sure. Same with cover, not to mentioned the constant "I can't see that" voice messages even though you are doing damage to the target. It would massively help the cover issue if you could in fact fight in first-person mode so you could see what the engine thinks you are seeing.

Even the game designers very very rarely bother with crouching or cover when they fight (watch the IGN videos).

[schild]

OK, then. Name a superior gaming license to LOTR.

Riddick? Nearly anything that was born out of Pixar or Dreamworks (Cars was the second best selling game of last year I believe). There are lots of good comic book licenses with huge gaming crossover. TMNT? Spider Man? Xmen? Thing is, most good licenses can't be more than single or multiplayer (locally or limited over net) games. See, licenses where there are tons of good heroes or villains result in players wanting to play those characters.

Star Wars was a terrible MMO license.
Matrix as well.
Oh, and obviously, LOTRO.

DDO could have been good, but they licensed one of the worst realms to base it in. They should have bought Planescape, hell, even Dragonlance would have been better. But then, again, people would have wanted to play Caramon, Raistlin, Palin, etc. I don't think anyone would have wanted to be Riverwind though. He could've been a quest giver.

Oh, and then of course, there are licenses developed outside of the industry but made for the industry like the Tom Clancy stuff, Rainbow Six and Splinter Cell.

Along with the WANT TO PLAY AS THE HERO problem, there's also the problem of continuity. Obsessed fans get pissed when canon is broken and gamers don't want to dick around in a story that doesn't allow freedom because every word of it is memorized by half of the geek world and we've had enough of it already.

Come to think of it, it's harder to think of a gaming license (particularly for MMOGs) worse than LOTRO. Wait, that's not true, Buffy would be worse than LOTRO. The OC wouldn't be though. Teenie Boppers would suck that through a cocaine laced straw.

[sam, an eggplant]

Turbine did a fantastic job maintaining continuity with the lore. No doubt it was tough, but they pulled it off. They handled the "want to be the hero" problem quite well (for a MMO); throughout the course of the game you continuously interact and assist Gandalf, Strider, etc.

[schild]

Uhhhh, you can't be a hero. There's no other way to "handle that."

[sam, an eggplant]

You are a hero in LOTRO. You're just not Frodo.

It's as good as a licensed MMO can get.

[schild]

You are a hero in LOTRO. You're just not Frodo.

Right.

It's as good as a licensed MMO can get.

Which isn't good enough. That's the damn point.

Edit: Mind you, LOTRO is making money. But then, MMOGamers will play fucking anything. They're a desperate breed of gamer.

[shiznitz]

Star Wars was a terrible MMO license.

As has been stated a lot, IP like Star Wars or LotR will help initial box sales but the game has to deliver a game to keep subs. There is an article on the current Games For Windows magazine that claims SW:G sold 1 million boxes. I don't know if that number is aggregating expansion packs, but to have sold 1 million boxes and only have the subscribers they do is just sad.

[Mrbloodworth]

OK, then. Name a superior gaming license to LOTR.

Riddick? Nearly anything that was born out of Pixar or Dreamworks (Cars was the second best selling game of last year I believe). There are lots of good comic book licenses with huge gaming crossover. TMNT? Spider Man? Xmen? Thing is, most good licenses can't be more than single or multiplayer (locally or limited over net) games. See, licenses where there are tons of good heroes or villains result in players wanting to play those characters.

Star Wars was a terrible MMO license.
Matrix as well.
Oh, and obviously, LOTRO.

DDO could have been good, but they licensed one of the worst realms to base it in. They should have bought Planescape, hell, even Dragonlance would have been better. But then, again, people would have wanted to play Caramon, Raistlin, Palin, etc. I don't think anyone would have wanted to be Riverwind though. He could've been a quest giver.

Oh, and then of course, there are licenses developed outside of the industry but made for the industry like the Tom Clancy stuff, Rainbow Six and Splinter Cell.

Along with the WANT TO PLAY AS THE HERO problem, there's also the problem of continuity. Obsessed fans get pissed when canon is broken and gamers don't want to dick around in a story that doesn't allow freedom because every word of it is memorized by half of the geek world and we've had enough of it already.

Come to think of it, it's harder to think of a gaming license (particularly for MMOGs) worse than LOTRO. Wait, that's not true, Buffy would be worse than LOTRO. The OC wouldn't be though. Teenie Boppers would suck that through a cocaine laced straw.

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

[schild]

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

Where was I wrong? History has proven me quite right.

[Arthur_Parker]

LOTRO is a solid game if it's your first mmorpg, it's just looks weak compared to WoW.  I also get the feeling Turbine slacked off with content additions after release, they would have got more attention if they had released subscription numbers at the high water mark (200k, 300k?) but guess AC2, AC1 and DDO has left them scared of being open about that.  Cal leaving when he did probably didn't help either.

Also Buffy would be a great game, werewolves and vampires, we just need someone to squeeze those plus zombies, pirates, ninjas and massive robots into something.

[Sky]

I dunno, I think SW could be a great license. If it were done in a Privateer-style game, where you could fly for three or more factions (reb, imp, hutt), have a huge galaxy with system subplots and overarching background plots (found the ancient sith homeworld!). Flight model from TIE Fighter (seriously, TIE Fighter 2, ffs already). Land on planets and have ground combat from Jedi Knight, with saber moves and whatnot.

Maybe Serek Dmart is free to develop it.

[Broughden]

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

Where was I wrong? History has proven me quite right.

I agree with DDO sucking, especially due to the campaign world. But then I think everything Turbine touches turns to shite.

I also agree that Riddick would make an excellent campaign world for a space based MMO.

[pxib]

Also Buffy would be a great game, werewolves and vampires, we just need someone to squeeze those plus zombies, pirates, ninjas and massive robots into something.

City of Heroes

[JWIV]

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

Where was I wrong? History has proven me quite right.

I agree with DDO sucking, especially due to the campaign world. But then I think everything Turbine touches turns to shite.

I also agree that Riddick would make an excellent campaign world for a space based MMO.

There's already a 40K MMO in development which should be close enough.  Unless you really want a side quest to outrun the Sun.

[Mrbloodworth]

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

Where was I wrong? History has proven me quite right.

Because i think your blaming the IP, and not the execution. Some of those games were doing quite well, until management went wrong.

And from a player perspective, those games are very enjoyable (at one point and time).

I mean, what is your gage of success? and how much opinion are you allowing to enter that measurement. I enjoyed SWG-pre-cu very much as did about 500k** at one time i think it toped around (before the issues), last they spoke about it..don't really care for it now at all, ironically when they went from "your own story" to "everyones a hero" as you said, style...an i am currently enjoying LOTRO.

So, we talking fail in a business since, or a opinion since? Because other than personal opinion, im not sure what the reasons you stated some IP's would be better, or worse...

What are your guidelines here? Because i see some horrible IP's in your list, that would not work as a MMO at all. Or, are you talking about apealing to a more modern audiance?

Because SW, and LOTR... Have very HUGE fan bases, more so than some of the ones you listed... Are the fans gamers? maybe not, it may not directly appeal to them (this also explains such things as LOTRO design for accessibility, and no pre-mmo experience required). maybe thats was your point. Something seen as a bad thing to some around here, when its not.


**been a long time since i looked at any numbers for SWG, but thats one i recall

EDITS: sorry, more thoughts after rereading what you wrote.

[schild]

You really, badly need to read my posts again, I don't thin k you're getting it (still).

[Mrbloodworth]

You really, badly need to read my posts again, I don't thin k you're getting it (still).

I think the jist of what you are talking about it that you feel, that those IP's do not appeal to modern gamers? And if so, i would disagree.

"How many gamers give a fuck about Lord of the Rings"

If that is not what you mean, then please elaborate if you care to.

[raydeen]

Well, just watched the training video and ironically just checked my mail and got a beta invite. I suppose I'll find out sometime tomorrow if this things any good or not, but in the meantime, are there any 'pet classes'? I took a quick look at the website but didn't see anything that really told me about how classes progress or jobs or such. Will look again but I figured I'd ask those who have been in TR for a bit. Any love for someone who likes to cower like a little girl behind a meat shield minion?

[schild]

I think the jist of what you are talking about it that you feel, that those IP's do not appeal to modern gamers? And if so, i would disagree.

"How many gamers give a fuck about Lord of the Rings"

If that is not what you mean, then please elaborate if you care to.

That comment was relative to how many fans of the movies and books there are.

Which is to say, not many.

The crossover just isn't there to create a blockbuster, super megaton profitable MMOG. Or even a super megaton game. There's a reason Turbine was able to acquire the license rather than a dev/publisher with a well-known name like EA or UBISoft, etc. No one else wanted it.

[shiznitz]

There's a reason Turbine was able to acquire the license rather than a dev/publisher with a well-known name like EA or UBISoft, etc. No one else wanted it.

That is pure speculation on your part unless you bid on it yourself. EA and UBISoft have no demonstrable interest in making MMOGs. EA made some bucks on RTS LotR games so it wasn't that they thought the IP was bad, although one could argue EA just wanted to play the movie hype.

[Miasma]

EA bought Mythic (DAoC, WAR).

[Mrbloodworth]

I think the jist of what you are talking about it that you feel, that those IP's do not appeal to modern gamers? And if so, i would disagree.

"How many gamers give a fuck about Lord of the Rings"

If that is not what you mean, then please elaborate if you care to.

That comment was relative to how many fans of the movies and books there are.

Which is to say, not many.

Thats not true, lol. Unless your speaking about gamers, in that regard, i would give a little on that. Then again...DnD?

The crossover just isn't there to create a blockbuster, super megaton profitable MMOG. Or even a super megaton game. There's a reason Turbine was able to acquire the license rather than a dev/publisher with a well-known name like EA or UBISoft, etc. No one else wanted it.

Again, it depends on your gage of success.

Whats a "Blockbuster" to you? And in what way are you using it here?

But i do understand what you are saying.

[Musashi]

I think LoTRO is a virtual clone of that other game in damn near every regard.  Doesn't that figure into why the crossover from the movie, or books isn't there?  Why play LoTR when you could play that other game with, oh by they way, the rest of the known universe?  I don't think it has as much to do with whether or not an IP is more or less suited for gaming, and more to do with how games formulated around huge IP's are usually hastily hashed together in order to capitalize on box office buzz.

While I don't know if I'd call LoTRO hasty or hashed (in fact I know it isn't), it clearly doesn't do anything that other games don't already do and better.  But that doesn't mean the IP isn't suited for genre x.  It just means that the iteration wasn't gutsy enough to catch too many people's attention, or somehow next gen enough to (LOL) topple that other game.  If anything, a huge IP like LoTR made all the difference by getting enough people interested to justify the money they spent on it.  If it were Elves 'n Stuff Clone #756 Online, I doubt we'd even be talking about it.  I think if LoTRO was renamed Riddick Online and the exact same game was set in space, given the current market, it would have probably had the same result - a moderately successful MMO at best.  But it isn't because of the license.

As far as why big name developers weren't chomping at the bit to get on board this IP, isn't the market for something this similar to something else KINDA saturated at the moment?  I'm no marketing guru, but just sayin'.