Mass Effect drops Nov. 20

[schild]

And yet, I've hated nearly everything that came out of Bioware since BIS folded. I really don't think it's coincidence.

[Amaron]

BIS did do Planescape themselves but otherwise I would agree with you.

I guess I didn't spell that out but if you look I was basically saying Planescape is BIS's saving grace.  I don't like the changes they made to the engine but one can't deny they had some magic to be able to make it.

That's the only game I know of I can say they really deserve to be able to call their own though.  Well except the console games but I'm not going to hold that stuff against them.

And yet, I've hated nearly everything that came out of Bioware since BIS folded. I really don't think it's coincidence.

I've got to admit I'm surprised you liked anything coming out of Bioware at all?   Did you really like BG1/2?  I can't really fathom that someone who enjoyed the good parts of BG2 would hate Kotor to the level you do.

[Big Gulp]

It's really just a matter of style, I guess.  Personally, I prefer freeform stuff.  I don't like the static, formulaic way JRPG's play out.  All your characters are chosen for you, combat is always turn based, and rather simplistic.  A lot of them are less games than excuses for CGI interludes, and most of them feature incomprehensible (and to me, flatout assinine) storylines.  I also despise the generic Japanese form of animation.  There's very little stylistic difference between any given JRPG, and that uniformity gets old for me really fast.

I guess it comes down to whether you like anime or not, and personally I can't stand the shit.  If you like it (God help your tasteless soul) then chances are good that you'll like JRPGs.

[Amaron]

I guess it comes down to whether you like anime or not, and personally I can't stand the shit.  If you like it (God help your tasteless soul) then chances are good that you'll like JRPGs.

That's an interesting outlook.  I love anime but I despise the same things about JRPGs that you seem to.  Of course I do despise certain really popular anime like Evangelion.  That sort of crap does get put into JRPG's a lot.

[Rasix]

I guess it comes down to whether you like anime or not, and personally I can't stand the shit.  If you like it (God help your tasteless soul) then chances are good that you'll like JRPGs.

I don't watch anime.  I've seen like 4 anime movies ever.  Yet, I play the shit out of JRPGs. Where's my shrug smiley?

Most of what you're describing out of ignorance of the genre is true mostly of the worst examples.  There's a lot of generic, shitty JRPGs out there.  The ones where you're only getting the choice of attack/magic/item/defend and nothing ever interupts that cycle. Games where you run into invisible enemies and there's no way to avoid them.  Where there's really poorly written convoluted stories, which always involve you being an orphan prince and the real badguy doesn't show up until you kill the girly she-man you've been chasing the entire game.  You're likely stuck with a wacky (possibly spikey) hairdo though, so you've got to deal with that no matter which one you play. 

Oddly enough, of the western RPGs you listed earlier, the only one with any artistic flair is Vampire and that's mostly just due to its graphics holding up better under modern standards.  The more modern games like NWN2 and Oblivion really fail drastically in the artistic department (I'm not sure if Oblivion's downie faces trump NWN2's being the modern day Arcanum).  Mass Effect at least looks good in the videos I've seen so far, but I'll have to wait to play the game to see how it looks practice.

[Amaron]

There's a lot of generic, shitty JRPGs out there.

This might side track the discussion but does everyone here really think of JRPG as meaning RPG made in japan?  I've always thought of the word as meaning "shitty rpg that categorizes all the worst points of the difference between western and eastern rpgs".  I rarely think of tactics rpgs as JRPGs for instance.

[Strazos]

Personally, I love most of what both BioWare and BIS have done over the years.

I mean, wtf, there was just So Much to BG2, I'm not sure where the hate is coming from.


But to be fair, I like my fair share of JRPGs/JTBSs as well. Heck, they make up the majority of the stack of unplayed PS2 games I have sitting here, waiting for some point in time when I have the time to play them.

[Rasix]

There's a lot of generic, shitty JRPGs out there.

This might side track the discussion but does everyone here really think of JRPG as meaning RPG made in japan?  I've always thought of the word as meaning "shitty rpg that categorizes all the worst points of the difference between western and eastern rpgs".  I rarely think of tactics rpgs as JRPGs for instance.

Nice loaded question there.   :-D  It's just mostly country of origin honestly, I've seen very little of that style of game play developed over here. I've seen most tactics like Disgaea or FFT referred to as SRPGs, although they share more in common stylistically and mechanically with JRPGs.  Although, there's also a few different flavors of tactics RPGs: Jagged Alliance 2 or Silent Storm (fucking robots) don't play much like Disgaea and the like put out by Nippon Ichi.

For some reason this all reminds me when someone was trying to argue Final Fantasy was a cRPG (computer rpg, ie BG) because the a Nintendo uses computer chips.

[Fabricated]

KOTOR was great but very unpolished in almost every way in technical aspects. The game was buggy in just about every way a game could be buggy.

[Trippy]

Personally, I love most of what both BioWare and BIS have done over the years.

I mean, wtf, there was just So Much to BG2, I'm not sure where the hate is coming from.

There's no hate for BG II. Read schild's posts again.

[schild]

KOTOR, imo, had the same bullshit not-quite-freedoms of Fable. Also, the combat was total wank.

I see people shooting their nut over SRPGs from America and 4X space sims and the topics about NISA games here get almost no play from anyone except me, trippy, yegolev, rasix, and uhmmmm, me trippy yegolev and rasix. You "lol pedophile" fuckers are missing out on some of the best tactics gameplay to ever grace the goddamn earth. Disgaea 2 is still a frontrunner for GOTY imo, though the innovations made in Soul Nomad are nothing short of incredible. Also, I'd be shocked if there's a single SRPG or RPG from America with a villain that compares to Gig. Shit, we still haven't made one as good as Kefka. Bob Page comes pretty close though.

It's not about the anime for me guys, I like the colors that pop in those games, but mostly, it's the gameplay. Stuff like KOTOR and such just isn't deep enough for me considering how slow it is.

Btw, I loved the shit out of Baldur's Gate.

[Amaron]

Nice loaded question there.   :-D

Well that's true but in this case it was honest interest because I realize my background is probably different than even most PC rpg lovers.  I started out as a kid on an Amiga 1000 playing stuff like Bard's Tale in so many colors it put other hardware to shame for years, but I also got a NES after a while and played Zelda and pretty much everything since then.    I've always wondered if this makes me look at some things in ways that probably makes my views seem odd.  Even traditional PC gamers probably took a different course through gaming.  I missed several gold box games for instance which is unusual for someone with my tastes.

Also you bringing something like Jagged Alliance up suprises me too since I never even thought of them as remotely in the same category as Disgaea.   As far as I've always looked at it the west hasn't even created a game in the same genre as Disgaea/FFT/Whatever.   Are there other games people consider western that are supposed to be compared to something like Disgaea (unfavorably of course)?

Btw, I loved the shit out of Baldur's Gate.

BG2 was the better one by far though.   Seems like it might be that what Bioware is popular for is the stuff you dislike.   Note that's not saying your tastes are bad.  I meant it more like "this thing which Bioware is popular for seems like it might be something Schild hates".

[schild]

I had no problems with Baldur's Gate 2 either. I should have said Baldur's Gate Series.

Never Winter Nights was the beginning of the end though. It was shit shit shit and I've liked nothing (more than saying it's "good") since then.

[Amaron]

I had no problems with Baldur's Gate 2 either. I should have said Baldur's Gate Series.

Never Winter Nights was the beginning of the end though. It was shit shit shit and I've liked nothing (more than saying it's "good") since then.

Hmm I agree the NWN OC campaign was shit.  I guess I've always dismissed NWN completely because it was like the crpg version of RPG maker.  The OC was just like some sort of shitty tutorial example that happened to help sell boxes.

[schild]

People bought boxes on the promises of mods. I bought it on that. It was where I learned that most mods are a waste of my time.

It's weird, the only games I've liked mods in are Deus Ex and HL1/2.

[Fabricated]

KOTOR, imo, had the same bullshit not-quite-freedoms of Fable. Also, the combat was total wank.

I see people shooting their nut over SRPGs from America and 4X space sims and the topics about NISA games here get almost no play from anyone except me, trippy, yegolev, rasix, and uhmmmm, me trippy yegolev and rasix. You "lol pedophile" fuckers are missing out on some of the best tactics gameplay to ever grace the goddamn earth. Disgaea 2 is still a frontrunner for GOTY imo, though the innovations made in Soul Nomad are nothing short of incredible. Also, I'd be shocked if there's a single SRPG or RPG from America with a villain that compares to Gig. Shit, we still haven't made one as good as Kefka. Bob Page comes pretty close though.

It's not about the anime for me guys, I like the colors that pop in those games, but mostly, it's the gameplay. Stuff like KOTOR and such just isn't deep enough for me considering how slow it is.

Btw, I loved the shit out of Baldur's Gate.

Irenicus is the US version of Kefka IMO. Bob Page is up there but he's no Irenicus. He goes from being this ratbastard who is 5 steps ahead of you every time to being this babbling nothing yelling at you over your brainphone in the end while you shit-stomp everything.

[schild]

Irenicus is the US version of Kefka IMO.

I'll be god damned before I consider an elf even remotely as impressive as Kefka. Irenicus was bad, don't get me wrong, but he wasn't trying to take over an empire while poisoning children and mothers on the side.

[Fabricated]

I would like to say that at least western RPGS don't always end with you fighting either

1. God

or

2. The incarnation of all Evil/Hate

as summoned by what used to be the main villain at the end of the game. Can I pleeeeeeeease get a fucking JRPG with a good political drama that doesn't end with me fighting a big monster that's the spirit of all evil/hate, God, or just some really powerful monster thing the villain wants to unseal for no reason at all? Can't I just fight the regular human-shaped villain dude in a nice climatic battle and save a country instead of the whole fucking planet? Please? PLEASE?

[Morfiend]

Most of what you're describing out of ignorance of the genre is true mostly of the worst examples.  There's a lot of generic, shitty JRPGs out there.  The ones where you're only getting the choice of attack/magic/item/defend and nothing ever interupts that cycle. Games where you run into invisible enemies and there's no way to avoid them.  Where there's really poorly written convoluted stories, which always involve you being an orphan prince and the real badguy doesn't show up until you kill the girly she-man you've been chasing the entire game.  You're likely stuck with a wacky (possibly spikey) hairdo though, so you've got to deal with that no matter which one you play. 

Maybe I have played the wrong ones, but this about sums up my feeling for JRPGs in a nutshell. And its put me off trying more. The last one I tried was Enchanted Arm, and that is so far the only 360 game I have taken back. Hell, its the only game I have taken back in the last 8 years or so. I fucking hate that invisible enemy shit. Hello, its not 1980s any more.

As the the lolpedo comments, I think those are to work Schild up, more than any one really feeling that way. Although I did feel dirty playing Enchanted Arm because of the girly man stuff. The dialog was so horrible also, I just couldnt take it. It seemed like it was written by a 10 year old.
I dont enjoy the games. I understand that. Personally, I enjoyed KOTOR, and even NWN with the expansions, though it did still feel simplistic.

I really think that a lot of RPGs in general havent evolved as fast as other types of games. The BG series was the last big step forward for me. I am hoping that Mass Effect will be the next one. From what I am reading on it, it could be, but only if it is done right, and well.

[Rasix]

Maybe I have played the wrong ones,

Well, yah.  That's what I said.  :-D 

The last one I tried was Enchanted Arm, and that is so far the only 360 game I have taken back. Hell, its the only game I have taken back in the last 8 years or so. I fucking hate that invisible enemy shit. Hello, its not 1980s any more.

As the the lolpedo comments, I think those are to work Schild up, more than any one really feeling that way. Although I did feel dirty playing Enchanted Arm because of the girly man stuff. The dialog was so horrible also, I just couldnt take it. It seemed like it was written by a 10 year old.

Dude, Enchanted Arms?  Sweet merciful Jesus.  I didn't play it (didn't have a 360) but it didn't appear good from anything I saw or read. As for girlie man stuff in that game.. uhh.. one of the characters was gay with lots of gay dialog.  I remember some sort of hubub here over it. 

Worst JRPG I've played in a while has got to be Legend of Heroes.  Seriously, if you wanted to hate the genre, play that game.  Only game I think that I've ever gotten to the end boss, tried once, died (dual AOEs for all your life, lol), and then never played again.  Derivative, bad story, bad translation, and just tedius.  Still, lasted longer than I did with NWN2 

[Megrim]

Irenicus is the US version of Kefka IMO.

I'll be god damned before I consider an elf even remotely as impressive as Kefka. Irenicus was bad, don't get me wrong, but he wasn't trying to take over an empire while poisoning children and mothers on the side.

Um, you consider a character, one of who's lines is "I will create a monument to non-existence!" as an ultimate badass? I think i've mentioned before that i don't share any enthusiasm for JRPGs, so i don't want to sound like i'm jumping on the lolpedo badwagon or anything - but come on...

Man, our forums need a emofringe and/or /wrists smiley. Oh, oh, i'm going to destroy the universe! Oooh, oooooh!

[rk47]

K2 wasn't Bioware's.
It lacks on the challenge department, but the form of entertainment comes from the story and characters, it suffers from the lack of development time..hence 20-30% of the game is omitted from the game but a mod team is trying to fix it.

K2 had a great story going with awfully wordy characters, fully voiced even but somehow you never get the urge to just skip it the first time around due to its great writing. I can't describe it well but check this link out for a great dissection of the game's major plot point and reveal some details people have missed in their playthrough.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=41

[Big Gulp]

Um, you consider a character, one of who's lines is "I will create a monument to non-existence!" as an ultimate badass? I think i've mentioned before that i don't share any enthusiasm for JRPGs, so i don't want to sound like i'm jumping on the lolpedo badwagon or anything - but come on...

Man, our forums need a emofringe and/or /wrists smiley. Oh, oh, i'm going to destroy the universe! Oooh, oooooh!

If I could reach through the internet and kiss you, I would.

[Stormwaltz]

Huh? BIS helped with the Baldur's Gates games if not did more than most of the work.

BIS/Interplay provided "production assistance," QA, audio, and marketing. Design, programming, and art was all BioWare - and most of those folks still work here. I think you could fairly say that BIS helped a lot with polish - all the subsidiary stuff small new companies can't afford.

[Morfiend]

The last one I tried was Enchanted Arm, and that is so far the only 360 game I have taken back. Hell, its the only game I have taken back in the last 8 years or so. I fucking hate that invisible enemy shit. Hello, its not 1980s any more.

As the the lolpedo comments, I think those are to work Schild up, more than any one really feeling that way. Although I did feel dirty playing Enchanted Arm because of the girly man stuff. The dialog was so horrible also, I just couldnt take it. It seemed like it was written by a 10 year old.

Dude, Enchanted Arms?  Sweet merciful Jesus.  I didn't play it (didn't have a 360) but it didn't appear good from anything I saw or read. As for girlie man stuff in that game.. uhh.. one of the characters was gay with lots of gay dialog.  I remember some sort of hubub here over it. 

Schild told me it was good.

[Amaron]

Schild told me it was good.

I believe I have identified your error.

[schild]

No, I said it was gorgeous and NOT BAD.

I didn't say it was _good_. Just not bad. Not as bad as people were making it out to be.

Edit: Apparently, my tolerance for dreck is pretty high. Which is amazing to me considering how much time you assholes spend in MMORPGs.

[Rasix]

Schild told me it was good.

Could have been desperation over no good RPGs available on the platform.  Hell, if Eternal Sonata isn't good, they still won't have one (Blue Dragon is getting panned).  I suppose Bioshock could be considered an RPG (kind of, sort of). Schild does like some JRPGs that have gotten poor reception; Atlier Iris 3 comes to mind. 

If you want a "will I ever like JRPGs" benchmark: play Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant.  The first one isn't polished enough and the third one just plain isn't good.  Covenant has all of the mechanics you may hate, but the package it's in is awesome.   Great story, great humor, good combat that has great depth, lots of great metagaming aspects, the presentation is easily one of the prettiest games that's ever been on the PS2, and Yuri is just a badass.   Perhaps you'll need to play 1 to get some of the emotional impact of the main story line, but they took enough liberties with the story that it could be played independently.

As for tactics games go, Disgaea 2 is easily one of the best games ever produced in this field.  It's not hard for me to compare this style of tactical RPG to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Fallout: Tactics (underrated if buggy as shit).  They're all squad based, turn based, use experience points and character progression (not sure on JA2 specifics, been a while).  Biggest differences are the lack of action points for the NIS games (that has pluses and minuses) and the western focus on conventional warfare.   I wouldn't consider a comparison to Disgaea or Disgaea 2 any sort of slight to a western game  . Disgaea 2 is really one of the deepest, most solidly put together games I've played. It improves over Disgaea in just about every conceivable fashion.  How can you hate demonic penguins with switchblades that say "dood"?

Heh, I'd really like a graphical update to JA2.  The freedom and campaign style game play was very rewarding. Silent Storm was decent but eventually extremely disappointing.  The last parts of that game nearly made me destroy the CD (last CD I smashed in disgust was IWD2).

I guess the JRPG genre just isn't for everyone, which is fine.  Some of the perceptions kind of bug me because they're based of some of the crappier entries.     It's Final Fantasy 1-3 (US) and Earthbound that really made gaming for me early on. 

Anyhow, yah, Mass Effect.  Minute one purchase.  Hope they've learned their lessons from Jade Empire.

[schild]

You know, I never thought I'd see someone actually insult Kefka. Sure, my screenshot was in a vacuum, but really, he's one bad motherfucker. And sure, a lot of us weren't even 15 years old when the game came out, but even then. Fuck he was a bad son of a bitch.

[Fabricated]

Since we're not really talking about Mass Effect anymore, I thought I'd post this picture I just found. I forgot all about Luca Blight.

[Montague]

Schild told me it was good.

Could have been desperation over no good RPGs available on the platform.  Hell, if Eternal Sonata isn't good, they still won't have one (Blue Dragon is getting panned).  I suppose Bioshock could be considered an RPG (kind of, sort of). Schild does like some JRPGs that have gotten poor reception; Atlier Iris 3 comes to mind. 

If you want a "will I ever like JRPGs" benchmark: play Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant.  The first one isn't polished enough and the third one just plain isn't good.  Covenant has all of the mechanics you may hate, but the package it's in is awesome.   Great story, great humor, good combat that has great depth, lots of great metagaming aspects, the presentation is easily one of the prettiest games that's ever been on the PS2, and Yuri is just a badass.   Perhaps you'll need to play 1 to get some of the emotional impact of the main story line, but they took enough liberties with the story that it could be played independently.

As for tactics games go, Disgaea 2 is easily one of the best games ever produced in this field.  It's not hard for me to compare this style of tactical RPG to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Fallout: Tactics (underrated if buggy as shit).  They're all squad based, turn based, use experience points and character progression (not sure on JA2 specifics, been a while).  Biggest differences are the lack of action points for the NIS games (that has pluses and minuses) and the western focus on conventional warfare.   I wouldn't consider a comparison to Disgaea or Disgaea 2 any sort of slight to a western game  . Disgaea 2 is really one of the deepest, most solidly put together games I've played. It improves over Disgaea in just about every conceivable fashion.  How can you hate demonic penguins with switchblades that say "dood"?

Heh, I'd really like a graphical update to JA2.  The freedom and campaign style game play was very rewarding. Silent Storm was decent but eventually extremely disappointing.  The last parts of that game nearly made me destroy the CD (last CD I smashed in disgust was IWD2).

I guess the JRPG genre just isn't for everyone, which is fine.  Some of the perceptions kind of bug me because they're based of some of the crappier entries.     It's Final Fantasy 1-3 (US) and Earthbound that really made gaming for me early on. 

Anyhow, yah, Mass Effect.  Minute one purchase.  Hope they've learned their lessons from Jade Empire.

Started playing JA2 again recently. Awesome, awesome game. And yeah, your characters get levels, skill points, and attribute increases.

[Amaron]

Started playing JA2 again recently. Awesome, awesome game. And yeah, your characters get levels, skill points, and attribute increases.

Yea but it's missing the main part of an RPGs from what I recall.  The main protagonist doesn't even participate in combat correct?  He's just a commander?  It's just a strat game with RPG elements unless I'm remember wrong.  I don't remember any branching dialogs or deep character classes/skill systems or any of that either.  It's been a while though so no doubt my memory has become biased.

Fallout tactics is probably the only one that even tried to be an rpg from what I remember.  I still don't think it should be compared though because even if it says tactics it's inspiration is still clearly Xcom.  Those are basically all strategy games and shouldn't be considered lacking for missing RPG components.  Silent Storm was a masterpiece untill they screwed up and brought out the armored suits for instance.  In no way did that game need stuff that Disgaea has though.

I guess the other reason I can't accept them being compared is that if someone actually tried to make a proper western SRPG for the PC it would kick the snot out of 95% of the ones currently released.  A really good western SRPG would definitely trump Disgaea in terms of gameplay and other important RPG nuances that JRPGs across the board lack.

Now of course I won't argue western stuff will ever win any style awards.   When I'm ripping my hair out because yet another dumbass random encounter has popped up to utterly waste my time and bore me to tears though I could care less about "style".

[Rasix]

You just really don't know what you're talking about.  It's OK, just taking this any farther is pointless.  Here, have a zombie.

I really need a facepalm or shrug smiley.  Signe?

[schild]

A really good western SRPG would definitely trump Disgaea in terms of gameplay

Nope. They've tried a number of times, and FAILED.

Some companies are leaders of their niche. NISA is one of them.

[Murgos]

Funny stuff in this thread.

SRPG's are pretty much the exact same mechanic as the old Turn Based Party RPG's (Gold Box?  Etc...).  I've played Disgea and Disgea 2.  Sure, they are quirky and fun but they really aren't some amazing revolution of, well, anything.

Also, the PAX 07 Dev walk through completely cements that Mass Effect will be day 1 purchase.