Age of Conan delayed, stock takes big hit

[Amaron]

they obviously know nothing about what they are investing in.

We're talking about people who invested in Funcom.  That much is a given in the first place.  It's interesting though that they are worried about a WoW expansion.  It gives me the impression that investors think the MMO market is going to keep growing and that Wrath of the Lich King might gobble up AoC's "share" of the growth.   Personally I'm not sure I buy that there is a whole lot of room left for growth in the western markets as far as traditional rpg style mmo's go.  WoW added to the market by picking up a lot of single player RPGers and by appealing to the casual/nongamer market.   As far as I understood though AoC is supposed to go niche and ignore the casual market?  I've been mostly ignoring AoC till open beta since it's Funcom though.

[UnSub]

I don't think AoC can ignore any market. You can't market just to the hardcore and expect the player numbers to roll in. Not if you are a multi-million dollar license, anyway.

One theory about WoW is that it broke a lot of player barriers - they are now used to paying by the month for a MMO, they have learned to play nicely with others team up for mutual benefit join a PUG or guild, they are used to playing in a certain way, etc. The thought is that WoW grew the number of players who might consider a MMO. The trick is to steal those players away from WoW, or to pick them up as they get bored with it.

A new WoW expansion could easily crush another MMOs launch. Although Vangard was always going to be a hard sell, it might have done a bit better if it hadn't been put up against the Burning Crusade.

[hal]

No, your missing the important bit. WOW worked when launched. vanguard did not. it fucking did not work@!! Ya, Bliz has draw. Ya, Bliz has a rep for making good games at launch. vanguard was broken at launch. It had no (0) Chance in the market. The fact that what vanguard wanted to be( EQ next) and would have failed on that context is not in the argument. You have to function in order to have a chance to fail. It was simply broken.

[caladein]

Yes, but launching at the same time as a WoW expansion is like sitting on store shelves next to Madden or Final Fantasy... it just doesn't help your chances. Vanguard sucked, but that only mattered once people bought the game. BC (and horrible press) cut those box sales off at the pass.

[WindupAtheist]

Vanguard was a stinkbomb because it was a bug-riddled incomplete piece of shit built on concepts nobody wanted to play in the first place.  There are no lessons to be learned from it's failure besides "Don't build a shit game on a shit idea!"  Anything else it might have taught is obscured by that.  It's like debating the aerodynamic merits of a rocket that exploded on the launchpad.

[schild]

There are no lessons to be learned from it's failure besides "Don't build a shit game on a shit idea!"  Anything else it might have taught is obscured by that.

Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.
Don't let that unproven designer hire his friends in positions that matter.
Nepotism sucks.
If the dress code is t-shirts and jeans, it doesn't mean you get to be an asshole.
Design documents are necessary for a game.
You need more than one QA person to find enough bugs to make a game playable.
Do a lot of digging before you fund a project.

How many more do you need?

Edit: In FACT, the last reason it failed was it was a shit game built on a shit idea. That's merely the end result of a long string of colossal fuck ups.

[Hoax]

Oops. I suppose I should've looked around some more. 

Well, um, so ... nothing new here, I guess? None of my numbers juicy enough for ya?

I'll try harder next time.

I thought it was a great first post, the AoC stuff was pretty fucked up thread-wise, same goes for the WAR threads atm so dont worry about it.  The MMOG subforum is always a bit of a mess honestly, but the people who browse this sub-forum grind all the threads for the most part.  Even Signe's threads...

I don't have much to add except that I agree with people that say the AO setting kicked ass.  Also dialogue means fuckall to the gaming masses multiply that fact by 100 for MMO's.  There is a reason Blizzard adopted the quick quest text ui mod as a build in default game option.

[Trippy]

Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.

Most of the good MMORPGs were made by unproven designers. It's their second games you have to watch out for.

[schild]

Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.

Most of the good MMORPGs were made by unproven designers. It's their second games you have to watch out for.

Not if you consider WoW the only Good MMORPG - and even then, it's derivative trash.

[Trippy]

Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.

Most of the good MMORPGs were made by unproven designers. It's their second games you have to watch out for.

Not if you consider WoW the only Good MMORPG - and even then, it's derivative trash.

But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players -- they are Blizzard fanboys and girls (even if WoW is their first Blizzard game, they were just born that way apparently) -- so you shouldn't count that game.

[schild]

But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players -- they are Blizzard fanboys and girls (even if WoW is their first Blizzard game, they were just born that way apparently) -- so you shouldn't count that game.

Fearlessly bad logic.

I never once said WoW wasn't an MMOG. It completely is, in every possible sense. And it's a flawlessly executed dikumud with graphics. In my opinion, that goddamn game should have put a bullet hole in the brain of the genre. No one will be able to pull it off that fluidly again. Not even Blizzard. NEXT.

[Trippy]

But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players -- they are Blizzard fanboys and girls (even if WoW is their first Blizzard game, they were just born that way apparently) -- so you shouldn't count that game.

Fearlessly bad logic.

I never once said WoW wasn't an MMOG. It completely is, in every possible sense. And it's a flawlessly executed dikumud with graphics. In my opinion, that goddamn game should have put a bullet hole in the brain of the genre. No one will be able to pull it off that fluidly again. Not even Blizzard. NEXT.

That's not what I said you said. I said you don't consider the people who play WoW part of the MMORPG market.

[schild]

I don't, but that doesn't make WoW any less of an MMORPG. Which was the logic you used.

There are many MMORPG players that play WoW. I've put estimates at 500k to 1.5M before. And as it stands, I'd probably keep them around that. WoW hasn't grown so much lately that they've been pumping out press releases and MMORPGS - particularly Europe and the US haven't been springing up much at all nor stealing users.

And by Blizzard released numbers, that makes less than 10% (if you use the average of those numbers), that leaves 10% of WoW using being core MMOG users. Which makes it pretty safe to say that WoW players are not MMOG players. But that doesn't make WoW any less of an MMOG.

[Venkman]

But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players -- they are Blizzard fanboys and girls (even if WoW is their first Blizzard game, they were just born that way apparently) -- so you shouldn't count that game.

Whoa, what? WoW is an MMORPG just like any other. WoW players are playing an MMORPG very much like others (tuned much better though). And they are playing with people who have played other MMORPGs (like, ya know, the denizens of the most popular game-specific sub-forum here).

You can't lop off 9mil accounts in the PC AAA MMORPG market that easily. Some of them will never leave WoW, or leave it but not for another MMORPG. But there are still people playing UO too.

[Trippy]

But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players -- they are Blizzard fanboys and girls (even if WoW is their first Blizzard game, they were just born that way apparently) -- so you shouldn't count that game.

Whoa, what? WoW is an MMORPG just like any other. WoW players are playing an MMORPG very much like others (tuned much better though). And they are playing with people who have played other MMORPGs (like, ya know, the denizens of the most popular game-specific sub-forum here).

You can't lop off 9mil accounts in the PC AAA MMORPG market that easily. Some of them will never leave WoW, or leave it but not for another MMORPG. But there are still people playing UO too.

You are missing the context (as is schild but I wasn't going to bother to respond since he was in his usual nonsensical mode on this subject).

schild's whole point about about WoW, which he repeated again, is that, and I quote: "WoW players are not MMOG players" (he actually said that some may actually be MMORPG players but that's the first time he's ever admitted that and that was after I posted my reply). In other words WoW is its own special universe separate from the rest of the MMORPGs out there because WoW players are not MMORPG players. Or to say it yet another way what WoW players do or don't do doesn't have any effect on the the "real" MMORPG market because they don't count as being part of the MMORPG market.

So going back to our discussion:

schild: Don't put unproven designers at the head of a project.

Trippy: Most of the good MMORPGs were made by unproven designers.

schild: Not if you consider WoW the only Good MMORPG - and even then, it's derivative trash.

Trippy: But you don't count people who play WoW as MMORPG players therefore you shouldn't count WoW (as the only good MMORPG)

schild: My internal logic that WoW doesn't have MMORPG players therefore it's an MMORPG but it's still not part of the MMORPG market is flawless, therefore you are wrong

[Slayerik]

I love blue name fights! :)

Basically, I think that one third to one half of WoW's playerbase could be potentially sniped to play another MMO. Its the half that are feeling the grind and the boredom hitting hard. Remember your first MMO? They really enjoy the massively multiplayer part, so they will listen to their guildies about the 'next big thing'. Or they will look for another MMO because they like raiding/PVP/PvE or whatever.

Regardless, Blizzard fanbois or not, it cant be ignored that even a third of 9 million increased the MMO pool significantly.

[Arrrgh]

Their contempt for PvPers isn't going to help when (if?) a good PvP game rolls around.

"So, we're not here to talk about solo player content today. Or PVP with your welfare Arena epics or anything like that. This round is for people actually go out and earn their epics by killing hard bosses in dungeons."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfb1LPo08i4

[schild]

schild: My internal logic that WoW doesn't have MMORPG players therefore it's an MMORPG but it's still not part of the MMORPG market is flawless, therefore you are wrong

What?

[Mrbloodworth]

why is pushing it back a bad thing? I mean, in the long run, If the game is better for the added time, AND the game in total is a great game with large appeal, then there should be no issue.

I just wonder why people automatically assume that any delay is a bad thing.

We all know what happens to rushed, unfinished games.

[Slayerik]

I think people liked the idea of a release that wasn't around the time of other stuff. That has all changed now.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think people liked the idea of a release that wasn't around the time of other stuff. That has all changed now.

That i understand. But i don't think that equates to = "FAIL!!". Competition is competition, at that point, it comes down to marketing, and the best game for the buyer.

I persionaly believe that anyone trying to "kill" WOW, is going to fail just because of that goal. Its all about the nitch now.

[tazelbain]

I think people liked the idea of a release that wasn't around the time of other stuff. That has all changed now.

That i understand. But i don't think that equates to = "FAIL!!". Competition is competition, at that point, it comes down to marketing, and the best game for the buyer.

Please link to someone around saying that, because don't I see them.

Let's pretend the above poll is correct, pushing back near or past WAR is an 8% loss of revenue. So the business question, will the extra development time provide more revenue than that loss of revenue and the additional development costs?  The fact that Funcom answered yes to the question tells me either a) Funcom has learned from AO, or b) the game is a dreadful state. I will go with latter because learning is weak suite of the industry.

Also kinda surprising numbers back for option #4.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think people liked the idea of a release that wasn't around the time of other stuff. That has all changed now.

That i understand. But i don't think that equates to = "FAIL!!". Competition is competition, at that point, it comes down to marketing, and the best game for the buyer.

Please link to someone around saying that, because don't I see them.

Let's pretend the above poll is correct, pushing back near or past WAR is an 8% loss of revenue. So the business question, will the extra development time provide more revenue than that loss of revenue and the additional development costs.  The fact that Funcom answered yes to the question tells me either a) Funcom has learned from AO, or b) the game is a dread state. I will go with latter because learning is weak suite of the industry.

Also kinda surprising numbers back for option #4.

Your right, no one here is saying it directly. But, every time something gets delayed, the internets come alive with , well, Fail.

I have been looking at AOC, but i was always unsure about the list of features, its quite large and broad. so I welcome this extra time, as i didn’t have allot of faith they could implement all those feature fully, and stably. It would be quite an undertaking for any team.

So i guess i agree, it must be #2.

[Lionhunter]

 The Longest Journey a mediocre-to-poor games

NO

[Merusk]

schild: My internal logic that WoW doesn't have MMORPG players therefore it's an MMORPG but it's still not part of the MMORPG market is flawless, therefore you are wrong

What?

Hey, that's what the rest of us have said for the last 2 1/2 years when you spouted it.

Also kinda surprising numbers back for option #4.

Missed this before.  It's not that surprising for this particular site.  The majority who play MMOs here are dabblers.  Get in, play for a few months, get out.  Maybe resub a few months later/ when the expansion hits.  I'd be surprised if the number of us who have had a Sub for multiple years (without a break) in a single game (after our first) is greater than 30-40%

It's what gives the site it's nice overview of things. (imo) Nobody so entrenched as to be unwilling to try something new, and few so entrenched in a single game as to be blind to it's flaws/ similarities with others.

[schild]

schild: My internal logic that WoW doesn't have MMORPG players therefore it's an MMORPG but it's still not part of the MMORPG market is flawless, therefore you are wrong

What?

Hey, that's what the rest of us have said for the last 2 1/2 years when you spouted it.

When I spout things, it's coherent.

Edit: I, literally, do not understand the structure of the sentence. He's taking things that I've always kept exclusive of eachother and melding them together into one three-headed dragon of misinformation.

[Montague]

I think I get what Schild is saying.

Imagine a marathon race where the organizers have barcaloungers with scantily-clad Swedish masseuses all along the route to rest whenever you get tired. Teams of doctors offer you oxygen bottles and water every mile. Contestants that bitch and whine about marathons enough can eventually get put on an automatic escalator.

In the end, the race is a marathon (it covers the 24 or whatever miles), and marathon runners may actually compete in it. But you wouldn't really call people who run in that marathon (and only that marathon) marathon runners, would you?

[schild]

Imagine a marathon race where the organizers have barcaloungers with scantily-clad Swedish masseuses all along the route to rest whenever you get tired. Teams of doctors offer you oxygen bottles and water every mile. Contestants that bitch and whine about marathons enough can eventually get put on an automatic escalator.

I want to play that on the Wii.

In the end, the race is a marathon (it covers the 24 or whatever miles), and marathon runners may actually compete in it. But you wouldn't really call people who run in that marathon (and only that marathon) marathon runners, would you?

Yar.

[Yegolev]

Whether or not you like Ragnar's stories, you can't defend the technical merits of Funcom games.

[Riggswolfe]

Ragnar Tørnquist, the "creative mastermind" behind The Longest Journey, Dreamfall and Anarchy Online, is little more than a hack.

Bullshit.

I have to jump in here as well. Frankly, if SHDR is trying to say this, it automatically makes me dismiss the rest of his post as the ramblings of someone who doesn't know good game writing when he sees it. TLJ and Dreamfall both had some technical/gameplay issues, but the storylines and characters and most of the dialogue were leaps and bounds above other games.

[sturmur]

All I want is less waiting and more killing.

[Montague]

Ragnar Tørnquist, the "creative mastermind" behind The Longest Journey, Dreamfall and Anarchy Online, is little more than a hack.

Bullshit.

I have to jump in here as well. Frankly, if SHDR is trying to say this, it automatically makes me dismiss the rest of his post as the ramblings of someone who doesn't know good game writing when he sees it. TLJ and Dreamfall both had some technical/gameplay issues, but the storylines and characters and most of the dialogue were leaps and bounds above other games.

Unfortunately MMORPG's live and die by their technical/gameplay issues much moreso than their storyline.

[sam, an eggplant]

Very true. If the story really mattered, LOTRO would have 9 million subscribers. Story's not a negative by any means, but gameplay's the thing.

[caladein]

In the end, the race is a marathon (it covers the 24 or whatever miles), and marathon runners may actually compete in it. But you wouldn't really call people who run in that marathon (and only that marathon) marathon runners, would you?

Except that no one puts "play an MMO" on a list of life goals. Every marathon runner is a partner in the integrity of the event. To move this analogy to a more sensible place: just because I play RTSs that don't have retarded-ass pathfinding on units, am I still considered an RTS player?

Now, what I think people are missing is that schild isn't saying "they aren't MMORPG players" in the way I put my RTS example but "they aren't aren't players some other MMORPG could take". Really though, most of those 9mil are up for grabs, not to the same game, but to a variety of games.

Now, of course this assumes the genre can get to the point where the car equivalents of AC and airbags aren't cool features, and just things you would come to expect (like decent pathfinding in an RTS). In that respect, I think SOE with EQ2 has, and I really don't think that Funcom and Mythic are retarded enough to not attempt to add in those now much desired features... will they work though is the question.

[Montague]

In the end, the race is a marathon (it covers the 24 or whatever miles), and marathon runners may actually compete in it. But you wouldn't really call people who run in that marathon (and only that marathon) marathon runners, would you?

Except that no one puts "play an MMO" on a list of life goals. Every marathon runner is a partner in the integrity of the event. To move this analogy to a more sensible place: just because I play RTSs that don't have retarded-ass pathfinding on units, am I still considered an RTS player?

Now, what I think people are missing is that schild isn't saying "they aren't MMORPG players" in the way I put my RTS example but "they aren't aren't players some other MMORPG could take". Really though, most of those 9mil are up for grabs, not to the same game, but to a variety of games.

Now, of course this assumes the genre can get to the point where the car equivalents of AC and airbags aren't cool features, and just things you would come to expect (like decent pathfinding in an RTS). In that respect, I think SOE with EQ2 has, and I really don't think that Funcom and Mythic are retarded enough to not attempt to add in those now much desired features... will they work though is the question.

Sure that RTS has great pathing. Unfortunately it has completely automated resource gathering. The tech tree is bland and dumbed down enough that there are only a few viable cookie cutter builds. There are only 3 general types of units and there is one basic mixture of these types that everyone uses. Everyone's army looks exactly the same and the only challenge is being able to click your units' special abilities before the other guy can click his.

It's still an RTS - sorta, but the game is so dumbed down to the lowest common denominator that it begins to lose touch with the genre. Unfortunately, the interface and pathing are so slick and well-done that most players refuse to play any other RTS and start to believe that the design concepts of that RTS should be gospel, even though it's not the design concepts that popularized the game, but the execution and implementation.