The Perfect MMO

[Amaron]

But the new companies targeting new people are doing so with new games, built on new methodologies. They ain't for us, ain't coming to us from companies that work for us, and are by and large a future of the genre many here will likely ignore.

I'm not really sure where you're going with that.  Your original argument that I replied to you used WoW as a "blitzkreig" and you refrenced AAA MMO's.   None of the things you are talking about are AAA MMO's so they don't really pertain to my original argument.   Falwell's post also sounded like he was talking about traditional MMO's having their production values raised to compete with WoW due to the audience having their tolerance for crap lowered.  You said he said it better than you so I think this got confused somewhere along the line.

I don't really have anything to say about things like Penguin Club of course nor do I think they will have much affect on the things I was discussing.  My point is simply that companies which attempt to produce AAA PC games of any sort all have some horrid flaws in human resources and engineering principles.  WoW will not change that even if the market for traditional MMOs (ie not penguin club stuff) broadens.

[Venkman]

I understand where you think this doesn't relate, but to me it all does. And it's highlighted by how you've refined what you're referring to. You''ve gone from "MMO" to sub-categorizing exactly what sub- part of the genre you're talking about (by using terms like "AAA" "traditional" "PC", etc) in much the same way the industry has. That is the core of my point.

Five years ago we knew what an MMO was. Nowadays that definition has changed and we're getting up to speed.

What WoW did in their blitzkreig was to give companies a better understanding of what is needed to launch a AAA traditional PC MMORPG targeted at us. This has scared some companies straight and has forced others to rethink what they're offering. And it has forced money folks to look beyond the resources available in the AAA traditional PC MMORPG industry to see what else can be done to offer. BarbieGirls.com is based on technologies that weren't seen as necessary back in the days when people thought the MMO genre was only to grow incrementally. That project was impossible even to envision. Heck, even browser-based Runescape is more a traditional MMO than the truly different modern ones.

The genre is evolving, and part of that is its evolving beyond what we expect.

And of course, this is all just my opinion. I hope it's clearer now. Sorta hard to go lateral in a linear discussion format :)

[Slayerik]

I'm just curious. What is the perfect MMO?

Subspace/Continuum, the first and only!

Hell yeah, I beta tested that bitch ......decades ago :)

[Slayerik]

I'm just curious. What is the perfect MMO?

Subspace/Continuum, the first and only!

How's this for oldschool? 



I started playing in early 1996 at alpha 0.79. I was called "bc" in Armageddon squad which won the first championship - one of our members, Rincewind, wrote the strategy guide they turned into the official manual. A lot of the players were Doom kiddies awaiting Quake 1.

I went travelling overseas for 15 months, returned and it was still in beta ... Nobody remembered me so I took a new name (Tale) and played for Outlaws squad which won the first powerball championship - but not before they kicked me out because I never made practice sessions due to my time zone.  P.S. I suck at SubSpace nowadays.

(edit) Perfect MMO for me would involve large-landmass team PvP warfare with major rewards for territorial control, no resets or timeouts on control, and somehow manage to keep it all balanced, functioning, dynamic (as in, fighting back against complete dominance is practical) and fun.

I remember you, I was E_Dog 420 back in the day (dont laugh too hard guys). Played on a few good crews (darkslayers being the best of them).

Powerball was the ultimate subspace game.

[Amaron]

I understand where you think this doesn't relate, but to me it all does. And it's highlighted by how you've refined what you're referring to. You''ve gone from "MMO" to sub-categorizing exactly what sub- part of the genre you're talking about (by using terms like "AAA" "traditional" "PC", etc) in much the same way the industry has. That is the core of my point.

No you've misunderstood me again.  Im saying that originally your post gave the impression of only talking about AAA MMO's meaning the traditional sort.  My reply was to your post.  In other words I only had something to say about you talking about AAA MMO's.   That was the only thing I wanted to discuss.  If you want to talk about non AAA MMO's none of my posts refer to that nor do I have anything to say about it honestly as it will not affect me much.

I was simply clarifying to you that if you meant this from the start that you should ignore all my posts as we seem to have been talking about different things from the start.

[Venkman]

Duly ignored. Sorry to bother you.

[UnSub]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

I remember when the idea of twitch combat in MMO would spark cries of 'heresy!' and 'burn the witch!'.

Thank god those days are gone.

Oh - and check out SOE's The Agency for a potential MMO that does this.

In Australia, we still say that.

My Australia is obviously different to your Australia.

[TripleDES]

My better MMO would be a MMO that replaces these retarded whack-a-mole mechanics with a mix of adventure, exploration and first person shooting elements, and focusing more on player skills than some dumbass numbers.

[Xanthippe]

I want a game with monster killing, large-scale player warfare, trading, crafting, housing, and farming.  Ability to change fashion/clothing/appearance.  Mounts and pets.

And of course, 

[Mrbloodworth]

I want a game with monster killing, large-scale player warfare, trading, crafting, housing, and farming.  Ability to change fashion/clothing/appearance.  Mounts and pets.

And of course, 

That already exists, its the nuances about definitions of those terms, and how they should be implemented that will make it never happen.

No one will ever agree.

[tmp]

a mix of adventure, exploration

What is your idea of "adventure" and "exploration" when translated into computer game?

I.e. when I hear these it makes me think of jRPG-like running around the map following a pre-written story that casts you as pivotal figure(s) in BigAssPlot (tm)  Is this what you mean, or something different?

[Calantus]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

I remember when the idea of twitch combat in MMO would spark cries of 'heresy!' and 'burn the witch!'.

Thank god those days are gone.

Oh - and check out SOE's The Agency for a potential MMO that does this.

In Australia, we still say that.

My Australia is obviously different to your Australia.

Tell me how you get <300 ping to an mmog please.

[UnSub]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

I remember when the idea of twitch combat in MMO would spark cries of 'heresy!' and 'burn the witch!'.

Thank god those days are gone.

Oh - and check out SOE's The Agency for a potential MMO that does this.

In Australia, we still say that.

My Australia is obviously different to your Australia.

Tell me how you get <300 ping to an mmog please.

Telstra Liberty ADSL2+ (Bundled) 20 000 kbs  12 GB Shaped Counted Dynamic $89.95 /mo

I don't know what my ping is exactly, but it's pretty low.

[Ironwood]

90 A MONTH ?


I hope that comes down to something reasonable when translated into real money.

Ouch.

[Tale]

The answer to the sub-300 ping in Australia to a MMOG is probably that someone looked at WoW and believed its ping meter. The WoW ping meter tells lies.

I'm on Internode (very good ISP) and WoW used to tell me I had a sub-200ms ping. Given that there is about 150ms of undersea cable between the US and Sydney before any other overheads, I never believed it.

90 A MONTH ?

I hope that comes down to something reasonable when translated into real money.

Ouch.

Ah, you've set me off now. That's about US$77 and is a bad, expensive Internet plan by Australian standards, with utterly anal conditions placed on it, such as including uploads in the volume allowance. It may be necessitated by geography: in a US-sized landmass with only 20 million people, most of whom are in a few cities on the eastern edge, some areas simply cannot have cheap broadband or a choice of providers.

We still have a near-monopoly telco that has been semi-privatised and is run by American millionaires and regulated by a net.illiterate Tory government. Telstra gets away with murder, charging other Internet providers $30 per month per customer for access to the copper wire network. All Internet use is then volume-charged. The rest of the Internet is very far away via stressed undersea cables, so volume charging is slightly justified, but mostly it's gouging. Volume charging has been going on for so long that most Australians are unaware it's abnormal. There is also a $20-$30 monthly line rental for simply having a copper wire phone, before the ADSL even starts. I mean ... how much does having a copper wire be a copper wire cost Telstra?

My father's Telstra "broadband" is 256K ADSL with a 200Mb monthly data allowance (lol) and a 24-month contract. It's 15 cents per megabyte over that ($150/Gb). Unbelievable! Fortunately he's at the "better remember to check this week's email ... hey, why do computers have loudspeakers?" stage.

My Internode broadband is 1500/256 ADSL with a 10Gb monthly allowance for A$54.95 (US$47), but that still kind of sucks because my local telephone exchange has only Telstra DSL ports. If I lived in an area with an Internode DSLAM at the exchange, I could have ADSL2+ (up to 24Mbps) and a 20Gb allowance for A$59.95 (US$51).

Unbelievably, again due to Telstra gouging, broadband prices have actually been rising in Australia. I used to have 10Gb peak (9-5) and 10Gb offpeak monthly (so effectively 20Gb) for A$59.95 and my ISP used to have its own premium Usenet server mirrored from Giganews. Plus if I exceeded my download limit I could keep downloading as much as I wanted to, but shaped to 64Kbps speed. Now the offpeak and the news server are gone, and signifcant downloads while shaped incur a charge.

There is competition appearing from 3G phone providers but ADSL or cable is what you want as a real Internet user/gamer. Oh yeah, there's cable too (only in the cities) ... but it's a joint venture between Telstra and News Ltd. Hardly anyone has cable TV, and the Internet plans on it are more evil than for ADSL.

Yes, we're fucked. So the perfect MMO would come with free broadband for Aussies.

[Tale]

I remember you, I was E_Dog 420 back in the day (dont laugh too hard guys). Played on a few good crews (darkslayers being the best of them).

Powerball was the ultimate subspace game.

Yes, I remember you too. The E_Dog part at least ... I couldn't have told you the number :) I remember darkslayers were our big scary rivals, and sure enough they won lots of seasons after the first. The only other person who has ever remembered me is Durabolin, who I ran into a couple of times on MMOG boards or on a return to SubSpace.

Did you ever watch the careers of SubSpace creators JeffP (Jeff Petersen) and Rodvik (Rod Humble)? Straight into the EverQuest team after SOE bought Infantry - Rod even became the new Brad when Brad left. I've lost track again now.

Powerball was amazing. It was so intense and tactical, but so few people appreciated it. When I go back to SubSpace I tend to go into Powerball and spec the ball, and just watch the action. I've joined in a couple of times but I always end up in a goal-scoring play where I screw it up through the Xs or miss a shot, and the veterans go nuts.

[Slayerik]

Yes, I remember you too. The E_Dog part at least ... I couldn't have told you the number :) I remember darkslayers were our big scary rivals, and sure enough they won lots of seasons after the first. The only other person who has ever remembered me is Durabolin, who I ran into a couple of times on MMOG boards or on a return to SubSpace.

Did you ever watch the careers of SubSpace creators JeffP (Jeff Petersen) and Rodvik (Rod Humble)? Straight into the EverQuest team after SOE bought Infantry - Rod even became the new Brad when Brad left. I've lost track again now.

Powerball was amazing. It was so intense and tactical, but so few people appreciated it. When I go back to SubSpace I tend to go into Powerball and spec the ball, and just watch the action. I've joined in a couple of times but I always end up in a goal-scoring play where I screw it up through the Xs or miss a shot, and the veterans go nuts.

I can't say I've talked to anyone but you that played PB in 5+ years.

Yeah, I remember my brother wouldn't even play it (probably due to vets being brutal in the zone). He enjoyed watching me play. Nothing better than making a mid slide on a defended goal, outnumbered, alive only cause you saved your rocket. Well, that and portal saves on a SURE goal. Anticipation and timing were so huge in that game. I stopped back in just the other day to have a look, seems like population numbers are down. Its a shame, I probably would start playing again due to lack of anything else to do.

I loved being able to setup slow bomb traps, stopping a rush on your goal. Anticipating where the ball would go. Battles in the X's.   Fuck, I miss that game.

[Nonentity]

Yes, I remember you too. The E_Dog part at least ... I couldn't have told you the number :) I remember darkslayers were our big scary rivals, and sure enough they won lots of seasons after the first. The only other person who has ever remembered me is Durabolin, who I ran into a couple of times on MMOG boards or on a return to SubSpace.

Did you ever watch the careers of SubSpace creators JeffP (Jeff Petersen) and Rodvik (Rod Humble)? Straight into the EverQuest team after SOE bought Infantry - Rod even became the new Brad when Brad left. I've lost track again now.

Powerball was amazing. It was so intense and tactical, but so few people appreciated it. When I go back to SubSpace I tend to go into Powerball and spec the ball, and just watch the action. I've joined in a couple of times but I always end up in a goal-scoring play where I screw it up through the Xs or miss a shot, and the veterans go nuts.

I can't say I've talked to anyone but you that played PB in 5+ years.

Yeah, I remember my brother wouldn't even play it (probably due to vets being brutal in the zone). He enjoyed watching me play. Nothing better than making a mid slide on a defended goal, outnumbered, alive only cause you saved your rocket. Well, that and portal saves on a SURE goal. Anticipation and timing were so huge in that game. I stopped back in just the other day to have a look, seems like population numbers are down. Its a shame, I probably would start playing again due to lack of anything else to do.

I loved being able to setup slow bomb traps, stopping a rush on your goal. Anticipating where the ball would go. Battles in the X's.   Fuck, I miss that game.

Was that game 'Infantry' thats on the SOE station pass made by the same people? It felt a lot similar, just in the physics of the engine.

Infantry was another one of those games I really enjoyed.

[Tale]

Yep same people. They started a company called Harmless Games to make Infantry, something happened with the finances of their financial backer, and SOE picked it up.

[Slayerik]

Since this is called Perfect MMO, I gotta say I'd love to see a mix of

Subspace
Star Control 2
Privateer

for the ultimate space MMO

[Venkman]

Ok, I'm in.

Eve with Freespace 2 flight system, Raid-level huge-ass-ships to fly (goddamn some of the Eve ships are ginormous) and Planetside ground game. Make that even half functioning and I'd be in for half a year.

[Slayerik]

Ok, I'm in.

Eve with Freespace 2 flight system, Raid-level huge-ass-ships to fly (goddamn some of the Eve ships are ginormous) and Planetside ground game. Make that even half functioning and I'd be in for half a year.

PS ground game, nice addition.

[Viin]

I think "The Perfect MMO" would make a great name for an MMO. A Korean one.

[Nonentity]

I think "The Perfect MMO" would make a great name for an MMO. A Korean one.

Not without a colon and further words after it.

Such as:

'The Perfect MMO Dream World: Your Fantasy Come Alive!!!!'

[tazelbain]

The Prefect: MMO

[Calantus]

My Internode broadband is 1500/256 ADSL with a 10Gb monthly allowance for A$54.95 (US$47), but that still kind of sucks because my local telephone exchange has only Telstra DSL ports. If I lived in an area with an Internode DSLAM at the exchange, I could have ADSL2+ (up to 24Mbps) and a 20Gb allowance for A$59.95 (US$51).

I have exactly the same plan as you. I thought that was interesting.

And yes our broadband is depressing. I read up on comments to videos and they're all "jesus it's going to take half an hour get a better server" and here's me on a relatively high plan for Australia chugging away at 2+ hours AND I'm paying more than them for the privelidge and if I download more than 10GB a month I'm shaped (which fortunately never happens).

And in regards to ping I can hit 20 on a local FPS server but until MMOGs bring servers to Aus I could have sub-zero speed internet and still chug away at 200-400 ping to american servers.

[UnSub]

My Internode broadband is 1500/256 ADSL with a 10Gb monthly allowance for A$54.95 (US$47), but that still kind of sucks because my local telephone exchange has only Telstra DSL ports. If I lived in an area with an Internode DSLAM at the exchange, I could have ADSL2+ (up to 24Mbps) and a 20Gb allowance for A$59.95 (US$51).

I have exactly the same plan as you. I thought that was interesting.

And yes our broadband is depressing. I read up on comments to videos and they're all "jesus it's going to take half an hour get a better server" and here's me on a relatively high plan for Australia chugging away at 2+ hours AND I'm paying more than them for the privelidge and if I download more than 10GB a month I'm shaped (which fortunately never happens).

And in regards to ping I can hit 20 on a local FPS server but until MMOGs bring servers to Aus I could have sub-zero speed internet and still chug away at 200-400 ping to american servers.

For the record, the plan I'm on is from Telstra because 1) I didn't trust iiNet with my phone service and they were the only other ASDL2+ provider in WA when I last checked and 2) Telstra bribed me to move away from AAPT, who weren't going ASDL2+ for the foreseeable future. Yeah, the plan has its drawbacks and Australia needs a more competitive telecomms industry, but until the Govt has the guts to carve Telstra's retail arm away from its infrastructure and privatise only the retail portion, that isn't going to happen.

[stu]

Ok, I'm in.

Eve with Freespace 2 flight system, Raid-level huge-ass-ships to fly (goddamn some of the Eve ships are ginormous) and Planetside ground game. Make that even half functioning and I'd be in for half a year.

PS ground game, nice addition.

That would be badass if you could manually pilot your ship from orbit-to-ground in real time. Imagine being part of a ground-pounder infantry division and watching a fleet of dropships fly in after breaking through part of a planetary barricade. Probly way too epic to get done properly but it would rock!

I would add perma-death but I don't think most people are into that aspect.

[Oban]

Perfect MMOs must run on a Mac.

[Slayerik]

Perfect MMOs must run on a Mac.

You forgot the green text. I think. ;)

[Venkman]

That would be badass if you could manually pilot your ship from orbit-to-ground in real time. Imagine being part of a ground-pounder infantry division and watching a fleet of dropships fly in after breaking through part of a planetary barricade. Probly way too epic to get done properly but it would rock!

Atmospheric dogfighting is what I'm really looking for.

I wonder what the biggest technical hurdle is.

[Stephen Zepp]

That would be badass if you could manually pilot your ship from orbit-to-ground in real time. Imagine being part of a ground-pounder infantry division and watching a fleet of dropships fly in after breaking through part of a planetary barricade. Probly way too epic to get done properly but it would rock!

Atmospheric dogfighting is what I'm really looking for.

I wonder what the biggest technical hurdle is.

Networked semi-realistic physics models would be my bet. The more accurate your physics model is, the more cpu cycles and network bandwidth it takes to keep things synchronized. The military gets away with allowing for trusted clients (see the Distributed Information Simulation, example paper here), and therefore don't have to worry about authoritative simulation servers, but in an untrusted environment it's pretty difficult to have "massive" but realistic physics networked.

[Amaron]

Atmospheric dogfighting is what I'm really looking for.

I wonder what the biggest technical hurdle is.

Motion prediction is where the real hurdle is at.  To synchronize separate clients over a network the server and clients attempt to predict your course of motion.   An enemy client would ask for your position and the server will respond with your course and heading.  The problem is how old the data is.   Say both of you have 400 ms ping.  He position data on you will be 800ms behind.  His response to your position data will come back to you 1600 ms after you move.  There are tricks to reduce this somewhat.  Some servers will ignore position updates if they deviate too much from where the server told the other clients you were going and thus you rubberband.

Of course you probably know most of this from FPS's most likely but I covered it just in case.  The difference for dogfighting is you have to deal with a the player having the ability to move in more directions.  On-top of that as far as motion prediction is concerned the speed of the airplane is yet another axis that must be predicted.   The possibility for error in the prediction method goes up dramatically and thus the maximum acceptable latency goes down.  If you add accurate atmosphere effects in the hands of a good pilot this can make it even worse.   I've never worked on an accurate atmosphere model nor do I know much about atmospheric piloting but I imagine there are lots of air braking and banking tricks that can allow a pilot to move in erratic patterns that would add another layer of difficulty to the motion prediction.

The latency requirements wouldn't be so bad that it wouldn't work in a typical FPS server style method but for an MMO it would require a lot of local servers to get the latency at an acceptable level.   Either that or compromises in the combat model could be used to lessen the impact of motion prediction failure.

[tmp]

Atmospheric dogfighting is what I'm really looking for.

I wonder what the biggest technical hurdle is.

Making it fun. Secondary would be making it fun without half of people bitching how it doesn't meet their personal idea of realism they were after.

[TripleDES]

What is your idea of "adventure" and "exploration" when translated into computer game?

Adventure game like elements, a la old school LucasArts. Exploration as in finding cool spots, that preferably offer more adventure elements. The issue here is probably to parallelize it enough, so that different players can go through the same story arc, but group randomly and go from there, so that the story adapts to the different knowledge states of the players.

Just get rid of that goddamn idiotic grind.