The Perfect MMO

[stu]

I'm just curious. What is the perfect MMO? People are so passionate about these games, and yet most MMOs fail constantly on multiple levels. I don't mind long-winded answers, either. You can even use this thread to let out all of your pent-up frustrations on the matter! Or, you can call me an asshole for asking.

[schild]

Or, you can call me an asshole for asking.

Ok.

[bhodi]

Yeah, I like that.

How about you browse a bit? I think all your questions have been answered.

[stu]

K so I'm an asshole then. I do browse a bit and I think there's so much info to sort through that most of it gets lost in translation. But if MMOs are such mega-projects, why do so many have to blow? With all the people working on them, you'd think all the bases would get covered.

[schild]

But if MMOs are such mega-projects, why do so many have to blow?

Being well funded doesn't matter when the industry is super-incestuous and hires out of the special olympics.

With all the people working on them, you'd think all the bases would get covered.

You can't cover all the bases if you need a map to find first base.

Here's the deal. This industry, specifically online gaming in the west, is a big f'ing mess. Bad designers, bad writers, bad musicians, and - somehow - bad artists (for the most part). Putting all of those things together on one team doesn't suddenly make good games. In fact, it never will. So, for the most part, we'll have to see people start DYING to get good MMOG design out of the west.

On the flipside, I'm slowly beginning to believe that we'll Never see good game design out of Korea. Those people are stuck in a completely different kind of box.

[Venkman]

Welcome stu.

There is no perfect MMO. There's only the perfect MMO for you. And even that perfect match is only going to last as long as you don't change and your life doesn't change.

Any game can be perfect for you. If it's perfect for enough people to keep them paying to play it, then it's worth checking out.

The passion comes from the belief that there should be one game to rule them all. But eventually people realize this is not nor ever will be the case.

[schild]

Darniaq, I like my answer more.

[Ookii]

I'm just curious. What is the perfect MMO?

Subspace/Continuum, the first and only!

[stu]

I think those were the morning coffee I was looking for. So, what I get is that the games aren't the problem. The fact is that while there are a select few, very talented people in the field, the ones who are really needed are outside of the industry. And, taking on an MMO is a downright impossible task since everyone is different, so the best you can hope to do is please the majority of the players a majority of the time. Can't say I'm really comforted. I'm pretty much a lurker here, but I figured if I asked anyone, this would be the place to do it.

[schild]

At this point, I wouldn't even say there are a few talented people in the field. I'd need to see the next round of MMOGs. There are some very good PR and business people in the industry though. But a good game they do not make. Right now there's The Blizzard Hivemind and everyone else.

[Mrbloodworth]

The Perfect MMO = Lie.

[Bandit]

Hasn't grunk already established that FFXI is the perfect MMO?

[rk47]

frankly it's not a perfect mmo i'm concerned about, because I can't really picture it well.
What i want is something fresh. A new survivalist concept. No currencies please. Take this whole 'loot & sell junk at store' away replace it with: 'let's trade. maybe u have something i need etc'

it doesn't have to be gears, just components. Materials like wood, leather, ore and basic necessities like food & water. Then you refine them, and build better stuff with it. Like a sharper spear, tougher leather armor, longer lasting & more filling food.

Add in some non-power levelling mechanics. Enforced character breaks else they will end up with a 'fatigue' debuff' to prevent multi-user power level services. Let the casuals have their chance. Don't make it a super grinder's paradise.

I'd also like to see some GM guided events that affects the whole server. That'd be cool. This should give players some sort of motivation to login. 'I want to participate' instead of 'Hmm what should I do when I login'. Have these events affect the direction where the whole world is going. Like...formation of a new town. Have people vote where to settle etc. Then form a NPC town there. Or something like that. Create future scenarios based on that.

That'd be fresh enough to play IMO.

[ajax34i]

... and World Peace!

The features you've mentioned have been implemented (or attempted) in other MMO's, and the results were dismal.  GM events being ruined by jackass players, lag, or circumstance - and you want them to result in world changes that affect everyone!  Yeah, imagine the outcry.

Fatigue debuff - WoW tried that and everyone whined to high heaven.  They had to reword it into "rested XP buff" to make it palatable.

Trade with no currency - exactly how is a player going to find what he needs?  You're imagining 1 to 1 trade, when in a MMO with thousands of users per servers, it's an Auction-House or public market type of thing - money is definitely needed.  Yeah, we didn't invent it for a reason, back in the Stone Ages.

[Nerf]

Ajax, I'm getting some real harsh vibes from you man, like, murder vibes, and thats not cool.

What the man posts is a brilliant idea, I know whenever I workshop a new business idea, the first thought that comes to MY mind is "how can I get people to only use my product a little bit?".

This concept should be applied to other places as well, take Vegas for example.  Think of all the revenue casinos would be raking in if they only let people gamble for 30 minutes at a time, and then forced them to do other things! Can you say "Ka-ching!"?

Wait..no..it's my idea, any of you sons of bitches try to steal it I'll sick the simian horde on you, I'm packing everything right now, Vegas, here I come!


I cant believe that while typing that multi-paragraph post, rk47 didn't stop and think, "wait a second..this is a bad idea!"

[Venkman]

I think those were the morning coffee I was looking for. So, what I get is that the games aren't the problem. The fact is that while there are a select few, very talented people in the field, the ones who are really needed are outside of the industry. And, taking on an MMO is a downright impossible task since everyone is different, so the best you can hope to do is please the majority of the players a majority of the time. Can't say I'm really comforted. I'm pretty much a lurker here, but I figured if I asked anyone, this would be the place to do it.

That was my point, but in a good way. There is more than one car in the world, more than one style of house, more than one brand of HD-TV, more than one MMOG. The reason for this is because everyone is different and because people change. What one likes in their teens changes in their 20s, 30s, and so on. Marriage, mortgage, money, it all affects what you like. Nothing is static.

That's how the genre should be perceived. People don't find one MMO and stick with it forever. Six months, six years, they're eventually gone. And if they stayed for that long, something was done right. You may not think much of the CCPs or the SOEs or the Cryptics of the world, but they're making lots of cash by giving some people what they want at that moment.

Oh, and nowadays, you can make your own MMO.

It's a mistake to assume broad wrongness with this genre when so many people are enjoying it. And it'd take a special type of snobbery to assume they're all sheep :)

Find what you want.

[Amaron]

At this point, I wouldn't even say there are a few talented people in the field. I'd need to see the next round of MMOGs. There are some very good PR and business people in the industry though. But a good game they do not make. Right now there's The Blizzard Hivemind and everyone else.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Gamecock now that they have real outside investors (as opposed to what they tried to do with G.O.D.).   I'm not quite sure they are going about things in a way that will improve the quality of product this industry produces but outside investors promoting new business models in this industry could have unexpected domino effects.

[Oban]

Err, have to agree with Schild.  Until there is a war centered around online games, there is no impetus for the industry to change the way it does business.  Perhaps when a government official complains that there is a MMO-gap, we may see action.  Hell, it has taken them this long to realize that there is a broadband gap, so do not hold your breath...

As for a Perfect MMO, that concept seems flawed.  An M.M.O.R.P.G. is perfect to the observer for that fleeting moment just after DING!, RING!, PURPLE!, RANG RANG! or whatever floats your boat.

So, if you have experienced the evanescent feeling of elation while playing an online game... well, then that would be perfection for you, my little snowflake.

[Venkman]

Until there is a war centered around online games, there is no impetus for the industry to change the way it does business

You mean, like, a surprise Blitzkreig?

That's the reason there aren't any more AAA MMOs actually coming* than there were prior. A lot of companies that thought they could spend, charge and rake in the cash got religion, and either refocused their efforts or had it refocused for them.

The industry is already changing, first by having broadened it's definition, then by broadening the audience.

* as opposed to the usual list of games five times longer than what will actually launch.

[Amaron]

Until there is a war centered around online games, there is no impetus for the industry to change the way it does business

That's the reason there aren't any more AAA MMOs actually coming* than there were prior. A lot of companies that thought they could spend, charge and rake in the cash got religion, and either refocused their efforts or had it refocused for them.

The industry is already changing, first by having broadened it's definition, then by broadening the audience.

I don't think WoW is going to have any effect on the core problems that have afflicted the industry for decades now.    The industry won't change much but their target features/goals for an MMO will change.   In the end they will still use the same broken method to create their products.

[Falwell]

Until there is a war centered around online games, there is no impetus for the industry to change the way it does business

You mean, like, a surprise Blitzkreig?

The industry is already changing, first by having broadened it's definition, then by broadening the audience.

* as opposed to the usual list of games five times longer than what will actually launch.

The audience is changing as well IMO. Maybe even more significantly than the industry. The average player's bullshit tolerance has plummeted in recent years. shaky launches, lack of frequent content updates etc. don't fly like they used to. Is WoW mostly to thank for this? Certainly. They created a new standard for MMO production expectations, and thank god for that because the genre sorely needed it.

[Venkman]

Amaron, Falwell did a better job with my point, so just read his :)

The audience has changed. We will not get serviced by the still-impossible dream of a game that combines the concepts behind SWG, combat of CoX, immersion of SB, and player-impact of Eve. Rather, what it means to be in an MMO is going to continue to change. Just as the Korean market is different from the U.S., the EU and the Chinese markets, so are they different between age groups. We are all older now. Today's pre-UO Trammel is at best pre-BC WoW, when Hunters ruled PvP. You think those people are waiting for SWG/CoX/SB/Eve "done right", spamming Stratics, IGN, and Allakhazam with their pet wundergame theories?

We're old school. Worse, we're high risk because the genre already has enough games for us. And worst, we require the most expensive methods of development this industry has. So part of the industry is "stuck" in the past. The rest are off chasing new less-risky propositions.

[Sairon]

Shit continues to sell just as good as it used to, I'm going to be bold enough to guess the market has expanded enough in recent years to offset the increasing sophistication of the players. I don't have any numbers but I just played some cabal and very recently some 2moons, 2 very diku low content/rough grind games and they were flooded with players. Cabal is at the point where all their servers are full and it's hard to get in. The ongoing 2moons beta is crowded as hell and that game offers nothing new at all ( same goes for cabal ).

[Tale]

I'm just curious. What is the perfect MMO?

Subspace/Continuum, the first and only!

How's this for oldschool? 



I started playing in early 1996 at alpha 0.79. I was called "bc" in Armageddon squad which won the first championship - one of our members, Rincewind, wrote the strategy guide they turned into the official manual. A lot of the players were Doom kiddies awaiting Quake 1.

I went travelling overseas for 15 months, returned and it was still in beta ... Nobody remembered me so I took a new name (Tale) and played for Outlaws squad which won the first powerball championship - but not before they kicked me out because I never made practice sessions due to my time zone.  P.S. I suck at SubSpace nowadays.

(edit) Perfect MMO for me would involve large-landmass team PvP warfare with major rewards for territorial control, no resets or timeouts on control, and somehow manage to keep it all balanced, functioning, dynamic (as in, fighting back against complete dominance is practical) and fun.

[bhodi]

Damn that was a fun game. I was fairly OK, but I was no god at it.

[Akkori]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

[UnSub]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

I remember when the idea of twitch combat in MMO would spark cries of 'heresy!' and 'burn the witch!'.

Thank god those days are gone.

Oh - and check out SOE's The Agency for a potential MMO that does this.

[Venkman]

For that Huxley may be the next hope. If it doesn't suck.

[schild]

Darniaq,

Webzen has canceled more games than they've released.

Love,
Schild

P.S. I'm not counting rinky dink localizations as released games. A team of monkeys can translate a game from squares and circles into a civilized language. hohohohoh tiny korean joke. and by tiny i mean the font. keke ^_^

[Venkman]

I can see something like that for Parfait, but Huxley seemed pretty far along, and already in English, to cancel the way they usually cancel things. I'm not saying a) it's guaranteed to launch; nor, b) it's going to be awesome. I just think it is one to look forward to more than, say, Firefly MMO or Atriarch :)

And, forgot to mention Lost Colony, of indie fair.

[schild]

I'm not saying Huxley won't launch.

I've just given up hope that it will be good.

[tmp]

But if MMOs are such mega-projects, why do so many have to blow? With all the people working on them, you'd think all the bases would get covered.

Given the diversity of tastes that you'll get if you take into account every asshole with opinion, that's practically impossible. To give rough example, if you made game literally blow the player for their $15 a month, some would complain it's not deep-throating, some would complain it *is* deep-throating once that got implemented, and if you made it switch in options then they would start complaining about overcomplicated interface. And how boring that blowjob gets after a while.

[Calantus]

I'm hoping for an MMO that allows combat ala BF2 or Doom or something similar. The over-the-shoulder or orbiting views are too boring.

I remember when the idea of twitch combat in MMO would spark cries of 'heresy!' and 'burn the witch!'.

Thank god those days are gone.

Oh - and check out SOE's The Agency for a potential MMO that does this.

In Australia, we still say that.

[Amaron]

Amaron, Falwell did a better job with my point, so just read his :)

Right like I said before you and Falwell have pointed out correctly that their target audience will change.   What you are forgetting is that the industry really sucks at hitting their target audience with a non crappy product.

End Result: Most of the stuff that gets released will be total buggy crap with bad ideas poorly implemented.

[Venkman]

When I say "industry" I mean all companies past, present, and future. I completely agree that some of the veteran companies (SOE, Funcom) have not done a bangup job of targeting their markets. But at the same time, new companies have come into the fold, completely from the outside, and become extremely successful without consulting the veteran set. Basically, they changed the rules by not being shackled by them.

For example, New Horizons Interactive launched Club Penguin. This game came outta nowhere really. Not a DIKU, not microtrans, Flash-based (using a relatively-new-then backend tech in Smartfox), low-end graphics, free for the most part unless you want to decorate your igloo, targeting a younger audience but attracting an older one, blah blah blah.

• They didn't call up SOE to help launch their MMO.
• They didn't target veterans of Naggy raids.
• They didn't talk to FoH.
• They basically ignored us and the whole "industry" we had followed.

And they just got bought by Disney for $350mil (with another $350mil if they hit milestones) after talks fell through with... SOE. This is not a game for anyone here, but has proved even more than WoW that there's a whole crapload of new people out there. And it is not alone. Sulake launched Habbo without consulting anyone in this "industry", and it was them that Disney talked to about launching the very-successful Virtual Magic Kingdom, which was only supposed to be live for a short while and instead is still going. Gaia Online is huge and growing as well, ignores the veteran industry. Virtual MTV talked to the There people instead of Funcom or SOE or Mythic about their needs. Dofus, Ragnorak, Viacom pulling in Nexon titles instead of talking to Western developers. Ganz, a toy company, went with what amounted to an advergaming service to launch Webkinz. The list is endless.

My point is that yes, the old guard is still acting like the old guard, both on the player side and on the industry side. We'll accept however AoC or PotBS launch because we're used to crappy games from the days when having just one realm complete through level 25 was enough for us to love DAoC and forgive the industry for the mess that was AO.

But the new companies targeting new people are doing so with new games, built on new methodologies. They ain't for us, ain't coming to us from companies that work for us, and are by and large a future of the genre many here will likely ignore. And that's not to say that's a bad thing. I personally don't find much enjoyment in any of these not-for-me titles, except Webkinz when I'm getting more KinzCash for my daughter to spend on her growing mansion :) But it's important to understand what's going on because already "MMO" does not mean "EQ/AC/UO" to people dolling out the cash to make them.