SOE to launch ... SOMETHING FIVE YEARS TOO LATE!

[hal]

Also playing currently. I will probally try it as cards are to drop as loot and a few cool things can be won, but meh. Maybe I will hang with my healers more playing cards while LFG but I do not see it as a large thing.

[Simond]

Smed said that the cards would also drop as loot.  So make sure you log in on launch day before they fix the loot tables.

So basically this is the first step to giving in-game loot a dollar value? 

I really like the idea of mini-games inside a game but this whole thing reeks to me of a money grab and nothing more.

Actually, the cards are supposed to be nodrop, at least in regards to in-game cash. Whether they can be traded for other cards/anted up/whatever will be interesting to watch for.

[Amaron]

Actually, the cards are supposed to be nodrop, at least in regards to in-game cash. Whether they can be traded for other cards/anted up/whatever will be interesting to watch for.

Maybe only the mob dropped cards are nodrop?  The whole trading thing is kind of essential to a game with paid for boosters.  I also can't fathom how they intend to for the thing to be popular if people can't trade ingame items/gold for peoples paid-for cards.

So basically either the card game is going to have pretty limited interaction with the mmo or they are going to end up enabling RMT for every player in EQ/EQ2.

[hal]

RMT I get jboots!! Finely.

[CharlieMopps]

It's just Smeadly lubing us up for the real deal later down the road.

They tried to slip in the exchange servers a few years ago, I'm sure Smeadly thought it was going to be huge, but it nearly destroyed the game. Judging from what was going on in the forums at that time they had to have lost 10% or more of their subscribers. The exchange servers have basically been a total failure since then and have had no effect on gold sales on normal servers. It was purely a money grab by SOE and an attempt to get the foot in the door of pure virtual sales strait from SOE. Want your epic weapon? $100!

I never did understand SOE. Rather than have 500k subs at $14 each, they would rather inflate prices, nickel and dime their customers and drive them away until they have 200k subs paying $30 each. What gives?

[Viin]

I never did understand SOE. Rather than have 500k subs at $14 each, they would rather inflate prices, nickel and dime their customers and drive them away until they have 200k subs paying $30 each. What gives?

Sounds like the movie box office model.

[Sky]

Yes it is online while you are in EQ and EQII they said it was a game to be played during the downtime (waiting for a group and the like). You launch it from inside EQ and EQII as a mini-game.

This is fucking awesome. Of course, I'd rather it was a free part of the game, but business is business.

I've decried the lack of good minigames in mmo since playing chess in UO with the regular group of pals.

RMT is another thread.

Why do you guys hate fun?

[Amaron]

I never did understand SOE. Rather than have 500k subs at $14 each, they would rather inflate prices, nickel and dime their customers and drive them away until they have 200k subs paying $30 each. What gives?

Well I'm sure it wasn't your intent but 200k people paying $30 each would provide a great deal more profit than 500k people paying $14 each even though the net cash intake would be less.   For EQ1 with it's many expansions though having more subscribers is definitely better unless the customers aren't even buying the expansions.

RMT is another thread.

I only brought up RMT because I can't fathom how this will work unless they let players start selling gold via trading for cards.  It won't be fun at all if you have to pay for cards.   This isn't MTG we're talking about where the cards retain value and thus you aren't just throwing cash away to buy them.

[UnSub]

Why do you guys hate fun?

I hate fun that takes me back to her room but then asks for extra money before things get good.

EDIT: Unless that was the prior arrangement, of course.

[Sky]

Meh, dropping $20 for the starter pack and a few extra cards is ok by me. I'll probably play mostly against the AI if it doesn't suck too bad. The problem with MtG to me has always been people with too much money dumping it on good cards, uneven playing field and whatnot makes for bad pvp.

Still, sounds like a fun addition to the game.

[CharlieMopps]

Well I'm sure it wasn't your intent but 200k people paying $30 each would provide a great deal more profit than 500k people paying $14 each even though the net cash intake would be less.   For EQ1 with it's many expansions though having more subscribers is definitely better unless the customers aren't even buying the expansions.

That's true... and part of my point. So what if it's more profitable in the short term? It's like having high priced stock... sure it's great that its worth so much, but if you lose 1 customer you're losing 2x as much. Also, when you come out with Everquest3 or whatever your next product is, you're going to have less of an audience to try it out.

[Venkman]

It is a shame the launch of this will immediately coincide with charging people for it. I'd have rather see them try this out to see if there was enough compulsion to pay extra for it. First try it out so people could get good stuff through it, then if there's interest, begin charging people while buffing what they can get. Not really a pump/fake if you let them know that is what you were thinking ahead of time. And based purely on what I've read, this is more appropriate for a DIKU than VG's Diplomacy.

I never did understand SOE. Rather than have 500k subs at $14 each, they would rather inflate prices, nickel and dime their customers and drive them away until they have 200k subs paying $30 each. What gives?

I think it's two reasons:

• They love the Korean/Far East microtrans model. Those games get way many more millions of accounts than any subscription-based DIKU has, even the Lineages. This doesn't translate into actual people of course. However, the microtrans model has proven to get more money from each person than a sub-based game. So, even if Maplestory's 60mil registered accounts only translate into 7mil actual people (total guess), they could be making more money per month than Blizzard collects from their monthly fee in the West and their royalty share from The9 in China.
  
• SOE realized they're not going to grow on the back of subscription-based games along anymore. They got clocked by Blizzard/VUG across the board. EQ brand was not as strong as Warcraft. SOE is not as beloved as Blizzard. SOE's superior infrastructure does not account for a perceived lack of game play development talent. So SOE is leveraging what they do do well: business and service providing. Don't think this card game thing is going to stop with the EQs. If it goes, expect it in every other title they've got enough players in to give it a go (SWG, MxO, TT, PotBS eventually, probably not PS).
  
  

Just my opinion of course.

[Amaron]

That's true... and part of my point. So what if it's more profitable in the short term?

It's not more profitable in the short term.  It's more profitable in the short term and the long term.  I thought this was a made up example though?  SoE has not raised their price for montly subs to $30 for basic service last I checked?  The station pass is more but that's a different ballgame.

As for my point on expansions it's only true for a large discrepancy like 500k vs 200k.  If it was something more like 500k vs 350k they could probably raise the expansion pack cost by $10 and get away with it.

Meh, dropping $20 for the starter pack and a few extra cards is ok by me. I'll probably play mostly against the AI if it doesn't suck too bad. The problem with MtG to me has always been people with too much money dumping it on good cards, uneven playing field and whatnot makes for bad pvp.

I don't see any problem dropping some cash either but it sounds like you haven't really played a TCG if you think you can drop just $30 bucks and have some fun.  At least not when your bothered by that aspect of MTG.   Having this one be an online TCG is only going to exacerbate the problem.   You won't be playing with your friends around the corner.  You'll be playing in some sort of ranked atmosphere where you will be made to clearly feel the inferiority of your deck if you only spend $30 bucks on it.

I happen to enjoy MTG and don't mind the costs personally but that's because those cards have value.  That's why I can't fathom what SOE is thinking.  An online TCG will probably not work without the online cards retaining value.  MTGO achieves this by allowing you to trade in whole sets of online cards for real cards.  Even if SOE tries the same thing though those cards are probably not going to be worth much as real cards.  Thus the audience will probably be restricted to people who really don't mind throwing cash away.

[CharlieMopps]

That's true... and part of my point. So what if it's more profitable in the short term?

It's not more profitable in the short term.  It's more profitable in the short term and the long term.  I thought this was a made up example though?  SoE has not raised their price for montly subs to $30 for basic service last I checked?  The station pass is more but that's a different ballgame.

As for my point on expansions it's only true for a large discrepancy like 500k vs 200k.  If it was something more like 500k vs 350k they could probably raise the expansion pack cost by $10 and get away with it.

They nickel and dime you all the way to that $30. Between their mini-expansions, this card game, the exchange servers. I feel like they look at me like I'm some money tree that they keep dumping fertalizer on. To much fertalizer kills a tree ya know.

[tazelbain]

That price point is just way too high unless they are giving away a ton of cards as prizes. 

[Amaron]

They nickel and dime you all the way to that $30. Between their mini-expansions, this card game, the exchange servers. I feel like they look at me like I'm some money tree that they keep dumping fertalizer on. To much fertalizer kills a tree ya know.

Well if you are talking about avg cost per month including expansion content then yea it's probably closer to $30.   You sound like it bugs you but if you want to argue that the cost of playing has significantly harmed the player base of SoE games then I can't agree.

The station exchange servers are different of course but I don't see how that has anything to do with how much money you pay to play the game?  It was a foolish idiotic attempt to cash in on the RMT market that would of caused all sorts of problems but it's another topic entirely.

I don't see how you feel like the card game comes into it either.  It sounds pretty optional.  Yes there are some item rewards for playing it but I kind of doubt they'll invalidate raid gear with rewards from a card game.

[HaemishM]

I applaud this move except for one thing. The price.

$10 for a virtual starter pack is shit. I've hated it with MTG Online, and I've hated it with every other fucking online CCG. I'm not paying full retail price for fucking virtual cards that retain no value.

[Trippy]

• They love the Korean/Far East microtrans model. Those games get way many more millions of accounts than any subscription-based DIKU has, even the Lineages. This doesn't translate into actual people of course. However, the microtrans model has proven to get more money from each person than a sub-based game.
  

No it doesn't. You keep saying that but you are wrong every time.

Edit: removed extraneous list tag

[Sky]

He may have misspoken, but Smed clearly said (in part 6 of the youtube footage iirc) that they were giving EQ & EQ2 players starter packs and that mobs would drop booster packs. The dev speaking for the card team said mobs would drop packs/cards/mumble. Audio sucked on that footage.

I wish Grimwell would post here so I could nag him for a beta invite :P

[Lakov_Sanite]

I switched over to wow from EQ2 in july 2005(has it been that long?) I didn't know the blizzard brand andI was even hesitant to play wow but im a MMO junkie.  The reason I left was when I heard EQ saying "new dungeon once a month $5!  New expansion twice a years $45!" I honestly can't remember if those price points are correct but it was then I knew I had to jump ship cause I play for fun, not to be nickle and dimed for something I already pay a monthly fee for. 

You can argue the monthly fee doesn't cover 'new' content but to me that's exactly what it covers from a purely visceral standpoint and in my opinion only.  I pay for the box, the box gives me all the stuff on the disc.  That monthly Fee I pay is the expectation of smooth servers and new content.  If you think adding new stuff should cost more, change the monthly fee and let me decide.

[Kyper]

SOE proves again that they are a bunch of money-grubbing shitheads. 

When I first heard about this in-game card game, I thought "ho, hum.  Whatever."  Now, after learning they're going to charge cash for the cards, I just shake my head in disbelief.  I didn't mind paying a little extra once in a while for new content like expansion packs or even the adventure packs EQ2 had.  But paying extra for a mini-game?  Smed can blow me.

I'm just glad their grab for cash with Station Exchange didn't catch on with other MMO companies.  Hopefully this new stupid idea won't either.

[CmdrSlack]

Apparently cards won't be tradeable.

At least, not once you open the booster packs. Apparently, you CAN loot boosters from mobs, and trade those packs, but once you open them, you can't trade the cards that give you in-game items with other players.

Some of that is found here, in Zonk's interview with Smed.

MN: Are the booster packs going to be sellable via the in-game economy?

Smedley: Actually no. One of the things we’re doing is making it so that you can’t sell any of these cards. That would be problematic for us. There would be some legal issues around that.

MN: Will players be able to trade?

Smedley: No. Otherwise we’ll get into a situation where the gold sellers will get into this, and we’re going to stop that cold.

During the ensuing discussion over at Broken Toys, Grimwell clarified some parts of that.

Not quite accurate, and a good source of confusion. If you cash in an item card for the item, you can’t trade it (the resulting item). You can trade the boosters between players (before you open them), but not the item you claim if/when you pull it from a booster.

The idea is that someone who does not care to play the CCG at all who loots a booster can trade it for something he likes, and the people who want to go berserk on the CCG and don’t want to pay can trade to get said boosters.

[sam, an eggplant]

SOE proves again that they are a bunch of money-grubbing shitheads.

They're running a business, not a hippy commune. They want to find new ways of monetizing their products, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. If I played EQ2, I would be concerned about this stuff polluting the game by leveraging real money against in-game benefits. But I don't, so I'll just watch it with great interest.

[Kyper]

SOE proves again that they are a bunch of money-grubbing shitheads.

They're running a business, not a hippy commune. They want to find new ways of monetizing their products, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. If I played EQ2, I would be concerned about this stuff polluting the game by leveraging real money against in-game benefits. But I don't, so I'll just watch it with great interest.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with being a money-grubbing shithead either.  Personally, I choose not to give my money to money-grubbing shitheads.  SOE is not trying to sell their customers something of value, they're just trying to squeeze more money out of them.

For what it's worth, I also don't give my money to hippy communes.

[schild]

There's nothing necessarily wrong with being a money-grubbing shithead either.  Personally, I choose not to give my money to money-grubbing shitheads.  SOE is not trying to sell their customers something of value, they're just trying to squeeze more money out of them.

For what it's worth, I also don't give my money to hippy communes.

Ok. So you don't like card games.

Anything else of value that you'd like to contribute?

[Venkman]

* screw it. stabby one-liners are boring and fascist and haven't yet been worth responding to *

[Grimwell]

You guys are funny. Sky, email me.

The game is pretty simple. It's a CCG and it follows the standard CCG model of starters and boosters. We aren't innovating there, or doing anything with costs that should surprise anyone at all. I'm still playing M:tG and am not surprised that 10th edition costs the same as 9th, etc.

People who don't want to participate can throw their boosters up for trade if they nab them as loot - and they can get something they like. I think that's pretty darn cool. People who do want to play, but aren't the sort to buy lots of boosters to get all the cards NOW NOW NOW can work up boosters while they play, tarde for them from people who don't want them, and build a good deck.

The team in Denver does a great job with these games - the Pirates game rocks. When we first tested Legends of Norrath internally, there was a LOT of feedback about the game and how to improve it - to the point that the Denver studio could have gotten all angry that we weren't being nice. You know what they did? They took the feedback and tweaked the game to the better for the design.

Will this ruin either EverQuest game? Nope. Good times, easy times. Just another option.

Oh, and I'm a shill and profit = good because I like paychecks.

...and since LoN is still in beta, anything I said that gets quoted after it's changed is just funny.

[WindupAtheist]

"Upon searching the body, you discover that the slain orc carried 12 silver pieces, a booster card pack for Everquest: The Gathering, and a coupon for $3 off /pizza."

Man, those EQ games are immersive.

[CharlieMopps]

You guys are funny. Sky, email me.

The game is pretty simple. It's a CCG and it follows the standard CCG model of starters and boosters. We aren't innovating there, or doing anything with costs that should surprise anyone at all. I'm still playing M:tG and am not surprised that 10th edition costs the same as 9th, etc.

People who don't want to participate can throw their boosters up for trade if they nab them as loot - and they can get something they like. I think that's pretty darn cool. People who do want to play, but aren't the sort to buy lots of boosters to get all the cards NOW NOW NOW can work up boosters while they play, tarde for them from people who don't want them, and build a good deck.

The team in Denver does a great job with these games - the Pirates game rocks. When we first tested Legends of Norrath internally, there was a LOT of feedback about the game and how to improve it - to the point that the Denver studio could have gotten all angry that we weren't being nice. You know what they did? They took the feedback and tweaked the game to the better for the design.

Will this ruin either EverQuest game? Nope. Good times, easy times. Just another option.

Oh, and I'm a shill and profit = good because I like paychecks.

...and since LoN is still in beta, anything I said that gets quoted after it's changed is just funny.

I don't think anyone gives a crap about the card game. I personally think it sounds silly and doubt many will play it. What people are worried about are the PRIZES
If you can buy cards
and the cards help you win games
and winning games gets you prizes
and those prizes are Equipment
You are therefor Buying Equipment

Tell us what the prizes are. Then we can either get livid (if it is equipment) or forget all about this card game (if it's just more cards, or fluff appartment crap)

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

In the video they presented at FanFaire it did show a toon getting a cloak and more gear from the card game. If this gear is more than just a different skin or if it's better gear than someone who plays the game without participation of the card game no one knows yet outside of SOE.

The presentation that got the most "WoW!" was The Agency.

[Murgos]

The gear is posted up on their website.  I looked at the EQ2 gear.  I didn't see anything in there that was unbalancing.  Most of it was cosmetic and a few things give you a bonus to exp gain.  A few of the cloaks and illusions looked like fun, not because that had awesome abilities you couldn't get anywhere else, but because they had new sparkle.

You get a free starter kit and you can loot boosters off the mobs.  Um, ok, this is prohibitive price raping how?

Also, pretty much every comment in this thread about eq2 pricing so far has been a lie.  It's 15 bucks a month not 30.  I bought the Play the Fae expansion box and got all the expansions and added content for 30 bucks AND a free month.  In addition to expansion content the EQ2 team has consistently released free zones (Raids, cities and etc...) and other content (two zones at least in the last 45 days).

To read some of the BS posted here you would think EQ2 had picked their pocket and then sold their wallet back to them.

[Sky]

Not to mention the utter lack of bitching about the $10 premium for EVERY console game these days. Seriously, get a grip. Someone makes a compelling minigame, something the genre needs WAY more of, and all you guys can do is bring up RMT?

[CmdrSlack]

If you can buy cards
and the cards help you win games
and winning games gets you prizes
and those prizes are Equipment
You are therefor Buying Equipment

No, not really. If you were buying equipment, you'd pay some dough and get equipment every time. Not everything is RMT and SOE isn't evil.

For fuck's sake...if half of you jacktards cared as much about politics as you do which MMO company is the most evil, we might actually be able to make positive changes in the world.

[Sky]

And why would being able to buy equipment be bad? Would it invalidate your 40-man catass raid? It would only be bad for PvP, and PvP is an afterthought in EQ and EQ2. You should play a game made for PvP.

If anything, RMT with the company supplying the goods is BETTER than an Exchange server, where players have to farm the stuff themselves at the detriment of other players who might rather adventure for it. Hell, it's already that way with some farming guilds. If I have to try to get something a few nights in a row, wasting all my playtime because some guild has it camped out, why shouldn't I be able to save my valuable time and buy it outright, and let the guild keep farming/cockblocking?

I fail to see the bad outside the PvP angle.

And none of this applies to the fucking card game, for crissakes, which is why I said RMT is ANOTHER TOPIC. Using your convoluted logic, I'm paying for the time which I earn gold which I could sell so I'm Buying Gold to Sell. I'm a gold farmer!

[CmdrSlack]

I always knew you were.

Dirty gold farmer.